Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

[kittycat51]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

[Silver]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

I just tried Googling it. The site seems to be down now. Tell me more.

[larsenb]

Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

You''re one of the most impermeable people I've ever run across. No rational argument or solid evidence that contradicts your views affects you at all. Oh, well.

Confirmed artifacts by non lds archeologist

Hand written letters by Joseph smith

Scriptures in doctrine and covenants that say Missouri is the lamanite border

Historical accounts of Native American beliefs that support the Book of Mormon record.


What evidence do you have ??????????

I could repeat evidence and analysis until the cows come home, and you would ignore it. You are simply 'advertising', nothing more. You are impervious to anything contrary to your black-and-white model and concepts. You brook no rational discussion about these issues.

Just a couple of items that illustrates your style: John Lund's excellent analysis of the Joseph Smith authorship of the Times and Seasons articles on Book of Mormon lands being in the region of northern Guatemala/southern Mexico. You haven't read it and you certainly haven't rebutted Lund's analysis. All you've done is call him nasty names.

Another item is the issue of Nephi's prophesy about a man of the gentiles visiting the seed of his brethren. You stick to your silly idea that the seed of Nephi's brethren can't be any other place than the continental US, when Columbus, who is universally identified by LDS to be the man Nephi identified, visited no Indians/Lamanites in the Continental US, but did visit them in Mesoamerica and in the Caribbean Islands, which are in the same latitude as Mesoamerica.

And there are several other issues that contradict your model that I've brought up that you basically ignore. Rather a waste of time talking with you here. . . except for the many silent readers of both our posts on these threads. I mainly write for them. You are impervious, as mentioned.

[larsenb]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

[kittycat51]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

Okay sorry larsenb, it wasn't to re-create Lehi's voyage. My bad. What it did prove though was that it was HIGHLY possible for Lehi to have sailed around Africa before being pushed toward's the Gulf of Mexico.

The History Channel did a documentary a few years back called "Who Really Discovered America?" They assumed an easterly route across the Indian and Pacific oceans alleged by Mesoamerican theorists but dismissed it because it would require about 580 days, way too long for people to survive the journey. In contrast, had Lehi left at Harvest season (September-October) and sailed to America along the same route now demonstrated by the Phoenicia expedition which hopped around South Afria, they would have arrived in North America near the middle of April, just in time for planting season. (just like Nephi claims in 1 Nephi 18:23-24 that they planted immediately.)

Have you read this article "The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography"? http://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-smo ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think the link to the actual article is broken, but you can download the article in PDF from the above link. Worth reading. I think Lund's research concerning trying to prove who wrote the article in "The Times and Season's" is flawed. (personal opinion)

Years ago when my older brother told me of Rod Meldrum's research I about decked him and thought 'what have you been smoking'. But after I borrowed some video presentations he had, my mind was blown and to me it just made much MORE sense than what I had believed my whole life to that point. You are right to say you could talk (yell) until you're blue in the face trying to tell me my opinion is incorrect and your's is correct. I think there are talking points on BOTH sides that may not add up. Remember we are told that sometimes we don't have all the answers in this life and to not let it shake our faith. If the prophet were to come straight out and state one or the other was correct I would take that and lay it to rest. (It has to be while they are a prophet and not a general authority) I do know though of a recent Apostle that was presented with the Book "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland" by Rod Meldrum and he was thoroughly impressed with it so much so he alluded to it in a speech shortly thereafter reading it.

This topic in my mind (as I have seen on this forum) could divide many in the church. Well who is the author of controversy? Satan. I have a dear older friend who I greatly admire and really look up to. I was shocked to find out that she and her husband believe in the "Baja California" theory of where the Nephites were. I won't hold that against her ;) Likewise I respect your opinion. From your posts you seem to be a pretty great person.

[tribrac]

I enjoy reading some of the secondary sources, (ie websites) but really like primary academic sources.

If you are like me you will enjoy this: http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscre ... 19&index=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or this http://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/mormons-map/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is Mormon's Map by John L. Sorenson.

Good Day.

[larsenb]

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

Okay sorry larsenb, it wasn't to re-create Lehi's voyage. My bad. What it did prove though was that it was HIGHLY possible for Lehi to have sailed around Africa before being pushed toward's the Gulf of Mexico.

The History Channel did a documentary a few years back called "Who Really Discovered America?" They assumed an easterly route across the Indian and Pacific oceans alleged by Mesoamerican theorists but dismissed it because it would require about 580 days, way too long for people to survive the journey. In contrast, had Lehi left at Harvest season (September-October) and sailed to America along the same route now demonstrated by the Phoenicia expedition which hopped around South Afria, they would have arrived in North America near the middle of April, just in time for planting season. (just like Nephi claims in 1 Nephi 18:23-24 that they planted immediately.)

Have you read this article "The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography"? http://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-smo ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think the link to the actual article is broken, but you can download the article in PDF from the above link. Worth reading. I think Lund's research concerning trying to prove who wrote the article in "The Times and Season's" is flawed. (personal opinion)

Years ago when my older brother told me of Rod Meldrum's research I about decked him and thought 'what have you been smoking'. But after I borrowed some video presentations he had, my mind was blown and to me it just made much MORE sense than what I had believed my whole life to that point. You are right to say you could talk (yell) until you're blue in the face trying to tell me my opinion is incorrect and your's is correct. I think there are talking points on BOTH sides that may not add up. Remember we are told that sometimes we don't have all the answers in this life and to not let it shake our faith. If the prophet were to come straight out and state one or the other was correct I would take that and lay it to rest. (It has to be while they are a prophet and not a general authority) I do know though of a recent Apostle that was presented with the Book "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland" by Rod Meldrum and he was thoroughly impressed with it so much so he alluded to it in a speech shortly thereafter reading it.

This topic in my mind (as I have seen on this forum) could divide many in the church. Well who is the author of controversy? Satan. I have a dear older friend who I greatly admire and really look up to. I was shocked to find out that she and her husband believe in the "Baja California" theory of where the Nephites were. I won't hold that against her ;) Likewise I respect your opinion. From your posts you seem to be a pretty great person.

Yes, it did show that Lehi could have come that way. It certainly showed that the Mulekites could have come that way . . . and on Phoenician ships to boot.

Unfortunately, Nephi is very sparse in his description of their voyage. And he said “after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land”. So we lack the actual time the voyage took. Also, we have no idea whether or not they made landfall from time-to-time to take on supplies, which could have been done all along the coast of India, past Sumatra and the various Polynesian Islands all the way to Tahiti.

Probably the strongest hint that they went east instead of west, is Alma’s description of where the land of their first inheritance was, which was on the sea shore on the west of the land of Nephi.

Once again, here is the passage that describes where the Lamanites were to be found, including: (Alma 22:28) “on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their father’s first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.”

Ripliancum’s model shows no seashore “on the west in the land of Nephi”. His model shows the Mississippi as essentially bordering the west boundary of the Land of Nephi. Furthermore, he thinks Lake Michigan was the west sea described in the Book of Mormon. Though his model does dip waaaaay down into Florida, so he could conceivably claim that the Nephite’s came into the Gulf and hooked around to land on the west coast of
Florida. But this contention violates Occam’s razor to the extreme, in my strongly held view.

And his model does not take into account the distance constraints that can be established by many passages from the Book of Mormon. It’s in extreme violation of these constraints.

People can make up powerful stories about almost anything, making you think they are or may be true. In science, this is derogatorily called arm-waving.

Now you can say you think John Lund’s research is flawed, but you’ve got to understand that it means nothing unless you can demonstrate how it is flawed. And if you read someone’s analysis of Lund’s research, you have to ask yourself if this person actually shows that the statistical analysis employed by Lund was flawed. Otherwise, you and they are blowing smoke. This is a type of thing that can cause contention.

The topic of where the lands of the Book of Mormon are located is fascinating. For me, it is enjoyable to speculate, discuss and analyze the issue. It doesn’t have to be an exercise in name calling and anger. I’m perfectly willing to accept the heartland model, if they could only clearly overcome its many weaknesses. I just don’t see that happening.

Incidentally, 2-3 years ago, I heard an emeritus Seventy speak about his experiences as a missionary in Guatemala, who came out in full support of the Mesoamerican, limited Tehuantepec model because of his experiences talking to Guatemalan Indians, who had a story of coming over in ships, consisting of clans derived from 7 brothers, or words to that effect.

[ripliancum]

Silver, have you ever heard of "The Phoenicia voyage"? It was an experiment carried out from October 2009 to October 2010, trying to re-create Lehi's voyage. I don't have time to write about it now cause I'm just heading out the door, but I can later.

This rebuilding of a Phoenician ship and sailing it around the Horn of Africa, was NOT done to re-create Lehi's voyage. It was done to recreate an actual Phoenician voyage around Africa and back into the Mediterranean Sea by a Phoenician ship and crew on orders of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt, in the 600 BC time range. It was described by Herodotus.

In pre-2009, a replica of Phoenician ship was built to replicate this voyage, which was undertaken in Spring of 2009. It is described here: http://phoenicia.org/circumnavigationnew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . and probably other places. The ship was christened: the Europa .

In fact, Warren Aston of Khor Kharfot fame, hitched a ride on the first leg of the voyage going down the Red Sea. I heard that as the ship was coming up the coast of West Africa, they were picked up by the westerly currents of that latitude and almost swept over to the Caribbean Islands . . . which supports the idea that Phoenicians may have transported the Mulekites on this very same path.

The interesting thing is that all we know about the Necho II voyage, was what Herodotus tells us. Just think of what the Phoenicians may have done in their voyaging that we DON'T know about. I think it is considerable. Hano was another voyager who went counterclockwise to the Necho voyage, but didn't get all the way around the Horn coming from the west.

Okay sorry larsenb, it wasn't to re-create Lehi's voyage. My bad. What it did prove though was that it was HIGHLY possible for Lehi to have sailed around Africa before being pushed toward's the Gulf of Mexico.

The History Channel did a documentary a few years back called "Who Really Discovered America?" They assumed an easterly route across the Indian and Pacific oceans alleged by Mesoamerican theorists but dismissed it because it would require about 580 days, way too long for people to survive the journey. In contrast, had Lehi left at Harvest season (September-October) and sailed to America along the same route now demonstrated by the Phoenicia expedition which hopped around South Afria, they would have arrived in North America near the middle of April, just in time for planting season. (just like Nephi claims in 1 Nephi 18:23-24 that they planted immediately.)

Have you read this article "The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography"? http://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-smo ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think the link to the actual article is broken, but you can download the article in PDF from the above link. Worth reading. I think Lund's research concerning trying to prove who wrote the article in "The Times and Season's" is flawed. (personal opinion)

Years ago when my older brother told me of Rod Meldrum's research I about decked him and thought 'what have you been smoking'. But after I borrowed some video presentations he had, my mind was blown and to me it just made much MORE sense than what I had believed my whole life to that point. You are right to say you could talk (yell) until you're blue in the face trying to tell me my opinion is incorrect and your's is correct. I think there are talking points on BOTH sides that may not add up. Remember we are told that sometimes we don't have all the answers in this life and to not let it shake our faith. If the prophet were to come straight out and state one or the other was correct I would take that and lay it to rest. (It has to be while they are a prophet and not a general authority) I do know though of a recent Apostle that was presented with the Book "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland" by Rod Meldrum and he was thoroughly impressed with it so much so he alluded to it in a speech shortly thereafter reading it.

This topic in my mind (as I have seen on this forum) could divide many in the church. Well who is the author of controversy? Satan. I have a dear older friend who I greatly admire and really look up to. I was shocked to find out that she and her husband believe in the "Baja California" theory of where the Nephites were. I won't hold that against her ;) Likewise I respect your opinion. From your posts you seem to be a pretty great person.

Yes, it did show that Lehi could have come that way. It certainly showed that the Mulekites could have come that way . . . and on Phoenician ships to boot.

Unfortunately, Nephi is very sparse in his description of their voyage. And he said “after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land”. So we lack the actual time the voyage took. Also, we have no idea whether or not they made landfall from time-to-time to take on supplies, which could have been done all along the coast of India, past Sumatra and the various Polynesian Islands all the way to Tahiti.

Probably the strongest hint that they went east instead of west, is Alma’s description of where the land of their first inheritance was, which was on the sea shore on the west of the land of Nephi.

Once again, here is the passage that describes where the Lamanites were to be found, including: (Alma 22:28) “on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their father’s first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.”

Ripliancum’s model shows no seashore “on the west in the land of Nephi”. His model shows the Mississippi as essentially bordering the west boundary of the Land of Nephi. Furthermore, he thinks Lake Michigan was the west sea described in the Book of Mormon. Though his model does dip waaaaay down into Florida, so he could conceivably claim that the Nephite’s came into the Gulf and hooked around to land on the west coast of
Florida. But this contention violates Occam’s razor to the extreme, in my strongly held view.

And his model does not take into account the distance constraints that can be established by many passages from the Book of Mormon. It’s in extreme violation of these constraints.

People can make up powerful stories about almost anything, making you think they are or may be true. In science, this is derogatorily called arm-waving.

Now you can say you think John Lund’s research is flawed, but you’ve got to understand that it means nothing unless you can demonstrate how it is flawed. And if you read someone’s analysis of Lund’s research, you have to ask yourself if this person actually shows that the statistical analysis employed by Lund was flawed. Otherwise, you and they are blowing smoke. This is a type of thing that can cause contention.

The topic of where the lands of the Book of Mormon are located is fascinating. For me, it is enjoyable to speculate, discuss and analyze the issue. It doesn’t have to be an exercise in name calling and anger. I’m perfectly willing to accept the heartland model, if they could only clearly overcome its many weaknesses. I just don’t see that happening.

Incidentally, 2-3 years ago, I heard an emeritus Seventy speak about his experiences as a missionary in Guatemala, who came out in full support of the Mesoamerican, limited Tehuantepec model because of his experiences talking to Guatemalan Indians, who had a story of coming over in ships, consisting of clans derived from 7 brothers, or words to that effect.

In my model the land of Nephi and the Land of Ishmael border the Gulf Coast or the South Sea. This matches the book of Mormon well since the South sea is only mentioned once in the BOM. Lehi probably landed along the Florida panhandle. There is a Hopewell civilization in Florida that dates to 500BC at crystal River.

The west sea is also a excellent match. Alma 53:8 a larger number of Lamanites build up south of the west sea (Lake Michigan) The Lamanites would go around lake Michigan to attack the city bountiful they also tookover many cities in that area. Lamanites were on west and north of Zarahemla. The fact that Lamanites are north of zarahemla is very problematic for the Meso American Model. See Alma Chapter 2 to see large concourses of Lamanites north of Zarahemla. With my model this fits perfectly. West of lake Michigan upper Illinois and Wisconsin area was open wilderness open to Lamanites.

In Alma 63 men women and children leave Zarahemla going north to the west sea. The West sea is North of the City of Zarahemla. When they arrive by the west they are by the narrow neck land desolation and bountiful. Another perfect match for my model. I know prophets and apostles in current times who were influenced by the meso American model stated that Hagoth sailed to Polynesian islands but the facts do not show this.

Also you continue to ignore scripture and statements by Joseph Smith.

Lamanites flee north and west from Zarahemla. Zarahemla was part of the west border. Sidon flowed along the city of zarahemla. Sidon was in the west part of the nephite lands and of the land of Nephi.

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.


http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... m-map.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Teancum]

In Alma 63 men women and children leave Zarahemla going north to the west sea. The West sea is North of the City of Zarahemla. When they arrive by the west they are by the narrow neck land desolation and bountiful. Another perfect match for my model. I know prophets and apostles in current times who were influenced by the meso American model stated that Hagoth sailed to Polynesian islands but the facts do not show this.

While on my mission, I met the daughter of Patriarch Wolfgramm. As part of their family heritage,which she shared parts of with me, their geneaology does indeed trace back to Hagoth.

Really this thread is a perfect example of LDS Book of Mormon bashing. There is very little edification when there is contention. It appears to me that People's faith / testimonies are being challenged and defenders of the faith must step forward with sword in hand to defend it at all costs. Perhaps the feeling is - "if I yeild on one point, then I have to yeild the whole shebang", so no one is willing to budge one iota for fear of loosing their footing and falling.

I don't know anything, but I have a hope of things. These things do interest me, but not to the point of alienating the Holy Spirit. It seems there was another thread on this forum which showed the same attitudes play out. Contention and pride seemed to hold sway there also.

So if this is not edifying, why participate? Hopefully some may come to realize that they have been allowed to be stirred up, and may accept and trust God's timetable for revealing these things in His own due time, and especially regardless of whether we as individuals have a part in it at all.

[ripliancum]

In Alma 63 men women and children leave Zarahemla going north to the west sea. The West sea is North of the City of Zarahemla. When they arrive by the west they are by the narrow neck land desolation and bountiful. Another perfect match for my model. I know prophets and apostles in current times who were influenced by the meso American model stated that Hagoth sailed to Polynesian islands but the facts do not show this.

While on my mission, I met the daughter of Patriarch Wolfgramm. As part of their family heritage,which she shared parts of with me, their geneaology does indeed trace back to Hagoth.

Really this thread is a perfect example of LDS Book of Mormon bashing. There is very little edification when there is contention. It appears to me that People's faith / testimonies are being challenged and defenders of the faith must step forward with sword in hand to defend it at all costs. Perhaps the feeling is - "if I yeild on one point, then I have to yeild the whole shebang", so no one is willing to budge one iota for fear of loosing their footing and falling.

I don't know anything, but I have a hope of things. These things do interest me, but not to the point of alienating the Holy Spirit. It seems there was another thread on this forum which showed the same attitudes play out. Contention and pride seemed to hold sway there also.

So if this is not edifying, why participate? Hopefully some may come to realize that they have been allowed to be stirred up, and may accept and trust God's timetable for revealing these things in His own due time, and especially regardless of whether we as individuals have a part in it at all.

This is about which Book of geography model makes the most sense and the evidence given to support the model. If you wanted to discuss spirituality I would not pick a post about the Mississippi River being sidon

[ripliancum]

The Jaredites and mulekites went up the st Lawrence seaway and landed in the East Sea.

Larsenb you can keep challenging my model but I can map the entire Book of Mormon with ease and without discrepancies. It's also consistent with D&C and statements made by smith.

[larsenb]

The Jaredites and mulekites went up the st Lawrence seaway and landed in the East Sea.

Larsenb you can keep challenging my model but I can map the entire Book of Mormon with ease and without discrepancies. It's also consistent with D&C and statements made by smith.

I'm just pointing out some very pertinent things and evidences that contradict your model and your ideas about the model, etc., in powerful ways, which you ignore. Your model is an extreme, extreme force-fit. But you're welcome to it. But don't have too much fun; accumulating new evidence is likely to bite you in the backside.

[ripliancum]

The Jaredites and mulekites went up the st Lawrence seaway and landed in the East Sea.

Larsenb you can keep challenging my model but I can map the entire Book of Mormon with ease and without discrepancies. It's also consistent with D&C and statements made by smith.

I'm just pointing out some very pertinent things and evidences that contradict your model and your ideas about the model, etc., in powerful ways, which you ignore. Your model is an extreme, extreme force-fit. But you're welcome to it. But don't have too much fun; accumulating new evidence is likely to bite you in the backside.

I want as many people as possible to challenge it because nobody yet has been able to poke holes in it.

[larsenb]

The Jaredites and mulekites went up the st Lawrence seaway and landed in the East Sea.

Larsenb you can keep challenging my model but I can map the entire Book of Mormon with ease and without discrepancies. It's also consistent with D&C and statements made by smith.

I'm just pointing out some very pertinent things and evidences that contradict your model and your ideas about the model, etc., in powerful ways, which you ignore. Your model is an extreme, extreme force-fit. But you're welcome to it. But don't have too much fun; accumulating new evidence is likely to bite you in the backside.

I want as many people as possible to challenge it because nobody yet has been able to poke holes in it.

Are you JOKING?????

I've just punched major holes in it. As I mentioned, though, you seem to be impervious.

People could punch serious holes in your model all day, and you somehow, won't see what they are doing. Like I've said: oh well. Strange . . . . . indeed.

[ripliancum]

The Jaredites and mulekites went up the st Lawrence seaway and landed in the East Sea.

Larsenb you can keep challenging my model but I can map the entire Book of Mormon with ease and without discrepancies. It's also consistent with D&C and statements made by smith.

I'm just pointing out some very pertinent things and evidences that contradict your model and your ideas about the model, etc., in powerful ways, which you ignore. Your model is an extreme, extreme force-fit. But you're welcome to it. But don't have too much fun; accumulating new evidence is likely to bite you in the backside.

I want as many people as possible to challenge it because nobody yet has been able to poke holes in it.

Are you JOKING?????

I've just punched major holes in it. As I mentioned, though, you seem to be impervious.

People could punch serious holes in your model all day, and you somehow, won't see what they are doing. Like I've said: oh well. Strange . . . . . indeed.

Detail your points, point by point and I will respond to each one individually.

[larsenb]

I'm just pointing out some very pertinent things and evidences that contradict your model and your ideas about the model, etc., in powerful ways, which you ignore. Your model is an extreme, extreme force-fit. But you're welcome to it. But don't have too much fun; accumulating new evidence is likely to bite you in the backside.

I want as many people as possible to challenge it because nobody yet has been able to poke holes in it.

Are you JOKING?????

I've just punched major holes in it. As I mentioned, though, you seem to be impervious.

People could punch serious holes in your model all day, and you somehow, won't see what they are doing. Like I've said: oh well. Strange . . . . . indeed.

Detail your points, point by point and I will respond to each one individually.

I've basically already done that regarding points in your model and your other assertions about Joseph Smith and Native Americans and where they are located and on Columbus. You've either ignored them or come up with some indefensible position that I've rebutted.

You are simply wedded to your model and your views and are not open to anything contrary to them. You've already amply demonstrated that.

[ripliancum]

I want as many people as possible to challenge it because nobody yet has been able to poke holes in it.

Are you JOKING?????

I've just punched major holes in it. As I mentioned, though, you seem to be impervious.

People could punch serious holes in your model all day, and you somehow, won't see what they are doing. Like I've said: oh well. Strange . . . . . indeed.

Detail your points, point by point and I will respond to each one individually.

I've basically already done that regarding points in your model and your other assertions about Joseph Smith and Native Americans and where they are located and on Columbus. You've either ignored them or come up with some indefensible position that I've rebutted.

You are simply wedded to your model and your views and are not open to anything contrary to them. You've already amply demonstrated that.

Your Columbus argument needs work. America celebrates Columbus discovery of the Americas for a reason.

You did not respond to Joseph Smith preaching to the lamanites (North American Indians) and them alone. He also pointed to hopewell Indian sites as the Nephites. The rest you misread the scriptures or the map. You also never responded to D&C 54:8

[cayenne]

go leif erickson!

[larsenb]

Are you JOKING?????

I've just punched major holes in it. As I mentioned, though, you seem to be impervious.

People could punch serious holes in your model all day, and you somehow, won't see what they are doing. Like I've said: oh well. Strange . . . . . indeed.

Detail your points, point by point and I will respond to each one individually.

I've basically already done that regarding points in your model and your other assertions about Joseph Smith and Native Americans and where they are located and on Columbus. You've either ignored them or come up with some indefensible position that I've rebutted.

You are simply wedded to your model and your views and are not open to anything contrary to them. You've already amply demonstrated that.

Your Columbus argument needs work. America celebrates Columbus discovery of the Americas for a reason.

You did not respond to Joseph Smith preaching to the lamanites (North American Indians) and them alone. He also pointed to hopewell Indian sites as the Nephites. The rest you misread the scriptures or the map. You also never responded to D&C 54:8

Just how does my "Columbus argument need work"?? This says nothing. Do you understand that?? You need to explain HOW and WHY it needs work.

Joseph Smith preaching to the Lamanites and them alone, of course is not true. He preached to many, many American gentiles as well. ;)

Otherwise, this argument is nonsense. He barely had the time and means to preach to those he did. He let other LDS prophets open up missions to the rest of the Western Hemisphere native Americans cum Lamanites.

And you still seem to be confused about the meaning of North America. Tell you what, find and post an 'official' definition of just where North America is located. If you succeed at that, maybe we can talk further.

[larsenb]

go leif erickson!

I hope you're joking.

Any record from Leif that he was influenced by the Holy Ghost to sail to Vinland?? 8-|

[ripliancum]

Detail your points, point by point and I will respond to each one individually.

I've basically already done that regarding points in your model and your other assertions about Joseph Smith and Native Americans and where they are located and on Columbus. You've either ignored them or come up with some indefensible position that I've rebutted.

You are simply wedded to your model and your views and are not open to anything contrary to them. You've already amply demonstrated that.

Your Columbus argument needs work. America celebrates Columbus discovery of the Americas for a reason.

You did not respond to Joseph Smith preaching to the lamanites (North American Indians) and them alone. He also pointed to hopewell Indian sites as the Nephites. The rest you misread the scriptures or the map. You also never responded to D&C 54:8

Just how does my "Columbus argument need work"?? This says nothing. Do you understand that?? You need to explain HOW and WHY it needs work.

Joseph Smith preaching to the Lamanites and them alone, of course is not true. He preached to many, many American gentiles as well. ;)

Otherwise, this argument is nonsense. He barely had the time and means to preach to those he did. He let other LDS prophets open up missions to the rest of the Western Hemisphere native Americans cum Lamanites.

And you still seem to be confused about the meaning of North America. Tell you what, find and post an 'official' definition of just where North America is located. If you succeed at that, maybe we can talk further.

Joseph never sent missionaries to central or South America. The scriptures are clear when preaching to the Lamanites was done only in North America to tribes of North America To say that Columbus discovery of the Americas only applys to South America is dum.

Missouri is the border of the lamanites. D&c 54:8

[davedan]

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

The confusion about which direction the River Sidon flowed may stem from confusion about the "head" of the river. In ancient times the "head" of a river is not the source, but instead the area of the fall-line.

Notice in the vision of the tree of life, Nephi was standing at the source of the river of water and looked to his mother and brethren standing at the "head" of the river aways off not knowing where they should go. Therefore, the "head" is not the source. Also, the river coming out from the Garden of Eden, and divided or "became into 4 heads." Again, the "head" is not the source.

Also, the land of Nephi was likely in Eastern Tennessee. The search group sent to find Zarahemla would have followed the Tennessee river until it met up with the Mississippi (Sidon) but then took the wrong fork and ended up following the Ohio river all the way up into Western New York region (Land of Desolation).

The center of the Land where Lachoneas gathered the Nephites together against the Gadiantons was likely southern Illinois where the Ohio and Mississippi joined. Remnants of a gigantic line of fortifications along the southern tip of Illinois remains today.

The Heartland Model:
Seasons
Iron swords
Peaceful agrarian society surrounded by more savage hunter-gatherer society
Grapes = scuppernongs.
Wild beasts = Bison
Sheep
Horses (thank you Dr. Jones)
Hill-top fortifications
Earthen wall and timber embattlements.
Temples without steps
Written language - micmaq
DNA - Haplogroup X = Algonquin Great Lakes Native Americans
River Sidon = Mississippi River
Foresty area where people get lost = Tennessee
Grassy areas were armies march long distances and don't get lost = Illinois, Indiana, Ohio
Waters of Mormon = Big spring Missouri (Ozarks)
Prophecy = Zarahemla location, City of Manti, Zelph mound
City of Desolation as the final area of Adena and Hopewell cultures = Western New York
Cumorah = Cumorah (actually the hill might not necessarily be the exact location where the Nephites and Jaredites made their final stand which may be in another nearby location in Western New York, maybe Tug Hill Plateau)
Land of Zarahemla = Iowa, Illinois
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Jershon (Ammon) = Ohio
Land of Desolation = Western New York
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of First Inheritance = Georgia or Florida Coast
Land Northward = Canada
Land of Liberty = US
Land of the New Jerusalem = US

Also, the climate was much warmer back then (vineyards in London) = no snow

HEARTLAND FOR THE WIN!!! Sorry, I used to be a Mesoamerica guy growing up, with a Book of Mormon Lands poster on my bedroom wall.

[cayenne]

go leif erickson!

I hope you're joking.

Any record from Leif that he was influenced by the Holy Ghost to sail to Vinland?? 8-|

He was a Christian, he wanted to spread Christ, he was here before Columbus, etc…..The fact that Columbus enslaved and tortured many natives is not a very good sign he was a man of God….

[cayenne]

The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

The confusion about which direction the River Sidon flowed may stem from confusion about the "head" of the river. In ancient times the "head" of a river is not the source, but instead the area of the fall-line.

Notice in the vision of the tree of life, Nephi was standing at the source of the river of water and looked to his mother and brethren standing at the "head" of the river aways off not knowing where they should go. Therefore, the "head" is not the source. Also, the river coming out from the Garden of Eden, and divided or "became into 4 heads." Again, the "head" is not the source.

Also, the land of Nephi was likely in Eastern Tennessee. The search group sent to find Zarahemla would have followed the Tennessee river until it met up with the Mississippi (Sidon) but then took the wrong fork and ended up following the Ohio river all the way up into Western New York region (Land of Desolation).

The center of the Land where Lachoneas gathered the Nephites together against the Gadiantons was likely southern Illinois where the Ohio and Mississippi joined. Remnants of a gigantic line of fortifications along the southern tip of Illinois remains today.

The Heartland Model:
Seasons
Iron swords
Peaceful agrarian society surrounded by more savage hunter-gatherer society
Grapes = scuppernongs.
Wild beasts = Bison
Sheep
Horses (thank you Dr. Jones)
Hill-top fortifications
Earthen wall and timber embattlements.
Temples without steps
Written language - micmaq
DNA - Haplogroup X = Algonquin Great Lakes Native Americans
River Sidon = Mississippi River
Foresty area where people get lost = Tennessee
Grassy areas were armies march long distances and don't get lost = Illinois, Indiana, Ohio
Waters of Mormon = Big spring Missouri (Ozarks)
Prophecy = Zarahemla location, City of Manti, Zelph mound
City of Desolation as the final area of Adena and Hopewell cultures = Western New York
Cumorah = Cumorah (actually the hill might not necessarily be the exact location where the Nephites and Jaredites made their final stand which may be in another nearby location in Western New York, maybe Tug Hill Plateau)
Land of Zarahemla = Iowa, Illinois
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Jershon (Ammon) = Ohio
Land of Desolation = Western New York
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of First Inheritance = Georgia or Florida Coast
Land Northward = Canada
Land of Liberty = US
Land of the New Jerusalem = US

Also, the climate was much warmer back then (vineyards in London) = no snow

HEARTLAND FOR THE WIN!!! Sorry, I used to be a Mesoamerica guy growing up, with a Book of Mormon Lands poster on my bedroom wall.

I never cared for 20 years of my theological studies where the BOM lands were. I assumed Meso America, until 2 years ago I prayed about it. I was really surprised when the answer came back North America. Since then it has been a fun journey learning and realizing all the evidence for North America far outweighs the minimal evidence for Meso America. What saddens me though is my inability to plainly see obvious scriptures pointing to this land being the land. I just missed those versus because I was studying others things instead.

Something else weird I have come across. In my research it seems almost all North American model believers take the scriptures from a literal context (like I do) and of course believe in creation, not evolution. Yet pretty much all the Meso people I have come across are the opposite.They look at scripture allegorically and believe the creation and flood accounts are not literal, and God used evolution. I find that very telling. I am not saying all people….just a majority per category

[larsenb]

I've basically already done that regarding points in your model and your other assertions about Joseph Smith and Native Americans and where they are located and on Columbus. You've either ignored them or come up with some indefensible position that I've rebutted.

You are simply wedded to your model and your views and are not open to anything contrary to them. You've already amply demonstrated that.

Your Columbus argument needs work. America celebrates Columbus discovery of the Americas for a reason.

You did not respond to Joseph Smith preaching to the lamanites (North American Indians) and them alone. He also pointed to hopewell Indian sites as the Nephites. The rest you misread the scriptures or the map. You also never responded to D&C 54:8

Just how does my "Columbus argument need work"?? This says nothing. Do you understand that?? You need to explain HOW and WHY it needs work.

Joseph Smith preaching to the Lamanites and them alone, of course is not true. He preached to many, many American gentiles as well. ;)

Otherwise, this argument is nonsense. He barely had the time and means to preach to those he did. He let other LDS prophets open up missions to the rest of the Western Hemisphere native Americans cum Lamanites.

And you still seem to be confused about the meaning of North America. Tell you what, find and post an 'official' definition of just where North America is located. If you succeed at that, maybe we can talk further.

Joseph never sent missionaries to central or South America. The scriptures are clear when preaching to the Lamanites was done only in North America to tribes of North America To say that Columbus discovery of the Americas only applys to South America is dum.

Missouri is the border of the lamanites. D&c 54:8

A prime example of why dialogue with you is next to impossible.

For instance, you are still confused about the term North America. Mesoamerica resides in, is located in, North America. And I NEVER said Columbus' "discovery of the Americas only applies to South America". Where on earth did you get that???