John Dehlin Facing Excommuncation

[Boanerges]

An excommunicated member has been deemed unrepentant.

I feel the need to point out my disagreement with your interpretation. I was not deemed unrepentant, in fact it was clear I was quite humble and accepting of my guilt and shame. I expressed gratitude to some on the court for their obvious concern with my status and progress. I was, in turn, thanked for my humble and willing attitude as a continuing part of my repentance.

I agree - one of the main purposes of excommunication (which is a last resort, BTW) is to help people repent. While it is true some may be unrepentant, such is not the case with all.

[freedomforall]

Hey, skmo, where ya been? Or have I just been posting on threads you have not participated on? Nice to hear from you.

Long story, fairly sordid, lots of anger, shame, pain, and anger, probably best left to another discussion. Good to be back, good to be retired.

Seems pretty clear to me it doesn't involve just the two priesthoods for there is no mention of them.

84:33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

It then goes on with (basically) ...and you become the seeds and the sons and receive all... and so on. Not just baptism. Certainly baptism is a part of it, but not all. I believe there are degrees. I have never had my C&E, so I don't believe I can yet be forever condemned as a son of perdition. I'm currently excommunicated, so I'm not in a great place, especially since I have received the Two Priesthoods and am responsible to get myself into a place where I can continue to magnify them, but I also believe God when He said His Grace was sufficient. Had I gone very anti, publically condemning the church as false, I still believe I could obtain forgiveness. Even apostasy is a state that can be changed.

I believe "Turn away altogether" means right up until judgment. Until that is passed, repentance may be applied (in most cases.)

Good to be back.

I don't believe for one second you are a son of perdition, so put that right out of your head. When I went through a sore repentance yrs ago, Satan tried his best to convince me I was. He will lie to you at every turn, expect it and move forward. Have you ever read "Putting On The Armor Of God" by Steven Cramer? His experience, I think, would be of benefit to you. He was excommunicated and relates the nightmare of it, and how he came back into he fold. It's a good read. It helped me lots, because being bottomed out spiritually is not a good place to be, next to being exed.

Let's look at D&C 84

33-38 talks about the two priesthoods

39,40 tells us the priesthoods are under/within the oath and covenant.

41-43 tells us that by not living up to the oath and covenant and turning altogether away brings condemnation of a high magnitude.

44-48 tells us how we should live

33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.

44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has (b)renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

Referrence (b) takes us to, TG Covenants; New and Everlasting Covenant.

Covenants made at baptism and in the temple all are under the covenants God wants us to adhere to, whch inclus living by his word, verse 44.

[skmo]

Maybe the Church should make it very clear to all those eight year olds and new converts that if they EVER start thinking on their own, and ESPECIALLY if they speak of it, they will be excommunicated - which in the eyes of the church and most members, equates to spiritual death.

Maybe you could try to get the chip off your shoulder and try to humbly find truth rather than stomping your feet about how bad you believe the church and its members to be. Sorry you didn't have my church leaders growing up, because they DID teach us to question, to study, to ponder, to learn for ourselves. Honestly, if your opinion of the church and its members is as hostile as you seem to be presenting, I can't understand why you'd want to be associated with it.

How ironic that on a forum that discusses freedom of choice in politics and food and medical treatment and how we raise our kids and all these freedoms we fight for, we don't believe the same way in our own church.

The science of medicine, the sociological impact of government and economy, the degree to which we embrace liberty as a society are all subjective and/or are undecided. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not. It is eternal. Are there problems with the way leaders and members behave? Certainly. However, humility and faith on our part can combine with mercy and grace on God's part to overcome earthly problems. This does not, however, absolve us from needing to obey the rules.

But what do I know, I'm a free-thinking heretic myself.

Think as freely as you wish and as far as your conscience will allow you to. However, when it comes to actions, yours may not harm another without consequences.

[skmo]

So which is it - does the church have the power or not?

Only the power you give them.

Amen.

Sorry whatever. But this is truth. Amen.

I must disagree here in the strongest terms. You may certainly decide how much power you allow the church to have on your interaction with them to a certain degree, but God gave the church power to organize and administer the gospel here. Neither you nor I nor even President Monson has the right to alter that. If God wants it altered, He will do so.

[skmo]

perhaps because restored gospel is true, and yet church authorites/members could be wrong....so, gospel and church arent the same....

Of course they're not the same. The gospel is the beliefs, the principles, the plans, the teachings, the faith, the lessons, the inspirations. The church is the organization, the structure, the administration here on the earth of how those gospel principles are implemented. God has given His children leaders to deliver His words. As we near the end of days, the organization plays a more important role than ever before to prepare the world for what, and Who is to come.

[freedomforall]

I believe "Turn away altogether" means right up until judgment. Until that is passed, repentance may be applied (in most cases

Here is some insight as to what happens to those that turn away altogether that may be of help:

Alma 12:13
13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned
14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence

Some people become so hardened that repentance is hardly an option any longer:

Alma 24:30
30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

Ether 15:19
19 But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed....

We must break away from Satan's grasp, called the chains of hell.

Alma 12:11
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

[freedomforall]

Maybe the Church should make it very clear to all those eight year olds and new converts that if they EVER start thinking on their own, and ESPECIALLY if they speak of it, they will be excommunicated - which in the eyes of the church and most members, equates to spiritual death.

Maybe you could try to get the chip off your shoulder and try to humbly find truth rather than stomping your feet about how bad you believe the church and its members to be. Sorry you didn't have my church leaders growing up, because they DID teach us to question, to study, to ponder, to learn for ourselves. Honestly, if your opinion of the church and its members is as hostile as you seem to be presenting, I can't understand why you'd want to be associated with it.

How ironic that on a forum that discusses freedom of choice in politics and food and medical treatment and how we raise our kids and all these freedoms we fight for, we don't believe the same way in our own church.

The science of medicine, the sociological impact of government and economy, the degree to which we embrace liberty as a society are all subjective and/or are undecided. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not. It is eternal. Are there problems with the way leaders and members behave? Certainly. However, humility and faith on our part can combine with mercy and grace on God's part to overcome earthly problems. This does not, however, absolve us from needing to obey the rules.

But what do I know, I'm a free-thinking heretic myself.

Think as freely as you wish and as far as your conscience will allow you to. However, when it comes to actions, yours may not harm another without consequences.

+1
After all, this is a pro-LDS site, Brian's rules and living room, is it not? Bashing the church and its leaders have no place here.

[skmo]

...I've seen so many of my friends and now my family being cast out of the church when they are righteous people and have done nothing more than have their own individual opinion on whatever it was the bishop felt differently about.

I've never heard of someone being excommunicated for having a different opinion about something unless it was an actual point of doctrine. I was told in Priesthood meeting I should wear a white shirt and tie to church. I replied I did not have one and I did not believe it mattered. I was told I was being prideful and needed to repent and seek forgiveness. I replied to the EQL (in the middle of the lesson and in front of the quorum) that he should repent of being despotic and un-Christlike, and that he should consider himself lucky because when Korihor tried teaching false doctrine, he paid a price I didn't believe the EQL would want to pay. When the bishop called me in, I told him how wrong it was to demand dress codes in the fashion he was trying to do. He said he was trying to have the EQL help the quorum achieve a level of professionalism that would reflect well. I told him I believed he was being a slothful and not a wise leader, and that if he insisted in trying to use the church meetings to mold us into proper Utah Boys, he'd get nothing but scorn and derision from me. When I pointed out that he was responsible for leading us in the gospel and not the business world, he got as upset at me as my mission president had about 20 years earlier for the same crap. However, I won't be browbeaten. Not by anyone. Try enforcing unrighteous dominion over me and I'll buck.

I know firsthand how great a disciplinary court can be, if you let it. I also know if a person disagrees with the decision, an appeal can go all the way to the Prophet. If people are allowing the church to have unjust power over them without doing something about it, the lesson is there for them to learn. They can choose to or not.

I don't understand why we are so terrified of hearing another man's opinion when it differs from ours.

It depends on the perspective and the circumstances. If it's the EQL criticizing my polo shirts? Differ away. If they insist on pushing it, I'm more than happy to engage in a debate. Generally, I won't lose. I won't usually pick a fight I don't care about or one I believe I'll lose, but if I feel strongly about it I'll follow my conscience. If it's someone trying to convince me that Sec 89 really is just a suggestion, and that if I really want a bottle of Midleton Special Reserve after a long day of unruly students, it should be okay then I'll support the bishop in telling the offender he's wrong, because it's no longer a matter of personal preference, it's a commandment, and he's tempting me with something I know can destroy me quite easily. I don't have the right to abrogate my covenants, nor to encourage others to do so without paying a price.

The bishop has literally stood from the pulpit and demanded that if your political thinking does not match president Monson's, then you need to change your politics.

What. The. Hell???

After I get re-baptized, you really need to invite me to come to your ward when your bishop is going to do something like that. It'd be epic. Epic, I say.

[skmo]

There is a stigma attached to excommunication. This is significant if your family or employer is LDS.

If my boss is LDS (assuming it's not the CES) and they fire me because I'm ex'd, my lawyer and I will have a great time breaking up the company we win from them and selling off the parts. If I get a sympathetic enough of a jury to give me the boss's house, too, I would be tempted to turn it into a Chinese restaurant and acupuncture clinic.

If it's my family, those who love and accept me may continue to be honored to have me sing Christmas Carols to them. Those who don't may line up so I may present my backside to them to kiss. Life is too short to be bothered by people who are asses. There are too many good ones out there to associate with.

[skmo]

You keep spewing this line and you are bald face lying.

I'd be careful accusing someone of lying without some kind of evidence. I disagree with quite a bit of what Jules has said here, but I've lived long enough to know there are people who make the kinds of mistakes that wrongly get them ex'd. I was in full agreement with my excommunication, but had I not been I would have been comfortable with taking it all the way to President Monson's office if needed. That said, I know not everyone is as stubborn as I am. I have known people who have been hurt by disciplinary courts. It's been rare, but I, too, have seen it happen. I provided support as best I could.

However, your opinion is gladly welcomed. I'd hope if you make an accusation you have something substantive to base it on.

[skmo]

No, I'm not a liar, I've asserted my opinion.

I really disagree with many of your opinions. If you can show me why I'm wrong (you generally can't because I'm almost never wrong*) I'll gladly admit it. However, I won't accuse you of being a liar without something to corroborate my claim.

*Please understand that I'm just being a smarty pants. This is an improvement because before I graduated, I was a dumbass.

[skmo]

He love the people, the story, some of the culture, the goodness . . . of Mormonism.

I understand it. When lived well and properly, LDS culture can have a tremendously positive impact - Societal, cultural, familial, educational. I've generally found this is more and more true the farther one gets away from Utah. It's kind of like rats: A few of them around serves to control garbage and other pests. Too many in one location and they start to eat each other.

Now I don't get that. I think if you don't believe in the big three tenents 1) Book of Mormon 2) Joseph Smith, or 3) at least the idea of continuing revelation, why would you want to be a Latter-day Saint?

That, I also understand. When I first got off my mission, almost the last thing I wanted to do was to be in a dominant LDS environment. However, I wound up at Ricks because I had my own big three tenets, and Ricks fit the bill: 1) Lots of girls 2) Lots of CUTE girls 3) Lots of CUTE girls who really wanted to make out (and sometimes more) with an RM. Things don't have to make sense to everyone, just the person in question.

I see no Korihors here. I only see tragedy.

There we differ. You see a good man doing something he believes in. I see a subtle tool of satan deceiving people with his "goodness" in the same way that idiot John Lennon did by proclaiming he was a "Peace" proponent. Right. In the same way my fat butt is a health proponent.

[freedomforall]

...I've seen so many of my friends and now my family being cast out of the church when they are righteous people and have done nothing more than have their own individual opinion on whatever it was the bishop felt differently about.

I've never heard of someone being excommunicated for having a different opinion about something unless it was an actual point of doctrine. I was told in Priesthood meeting I should wear a white shirt and tie to church. I replied I did not have one and I did not believe it mattered. I was told I was being prideful and needed to repent and seek forgiveness. I replied to the EQL (in the middle of the lesson and in front of the quorum) that he should repent of being despotic and un-Christlike, and that he should consider himself lucky because when Korihor tried teaching false doctrine, he paid a price I didn't believe the EQL would want to pay. When the bishop called me in, I told him how wrong it was to demand dress codes in the fashion he was trying to do. He said he was trying to have the EQL help the quorum achieve a level of professionalism that would reflect well. I told him I believed he was being a slothful and not a wise leader, and that if he insisted in trying to use the church meetings to mold us into proper Utah Boys, he'd get nothing but scorn and derision from me. When I pointed out that he was responsible for leading us in the gospel and not the business world, he got as upset at me as my mission president had about 20 years earlier for the same crap. However, I won't be browbeaten. Not by anyone. Try enforcing unrighteous dominion over me and I'll buck.

I know firsthand how great a disciplinary court can be, if you let it. I also know if a person disagrees with the decision, an appeal can go all the way to the Prophet. If people are allowing the church to have unjust power over them without doing something about it, the lesson is there for them to learn. They can choose to or not.

I don't understand why we are so terrified of hearing another man's opinion when it differs from ours.

It depends on the perspective and the circumstances. If it's the EQL criticizing my polo shirts? Differ away. If they insist on pushing it, I'm more than happy to engage in a debate. Generally, I won't lose. I won't usually pick a fight I don't care about or one I believe I'll lose, but if I feel strongly about it I'll follow my conscience. If it's someone trying to convince me that Sec 89 really is just a suggestion, and that if I really want a bottle of Midleton Special Reserve after a long day of unruly students, it should be okay then I'll support the bishop in telling the offender he's wrong, because it's no longer a matter of personal preference, it's a commandment, and he's tempting me with something I know can destroy me quite easily. I don't have the right to abrogate my covenants, nor to encourage others to do so without paying a price.

The bishop has literally stood from the pulpit and demanded that if your political thinking does not match president Monson's, then you need to change your politics.

What. The. Hell???

After I get re-baptized, you really need to invite me to come to your ward when your bishop is going to do something like that. It'd be epic. Epic, I say.

As far as I know we're all going to go back to Father naked as a Peruvian Hairless Dog. We were born naked so I am not fond of dress code either. Why my great-great grandfather, Wilford Woodruff, may have gone to church in his overalls for all I know. And what about a poor farmer out in the sticks? Should they not go to church because they don't have clothes fit enough to pass approval? I think not. We don't go to church for popularity, rather, to worship God and His Christ. Clean, presentable clothing and a bath/shower should suffice, unless someone lives real close to Deseret Industries. But who wants to be seen in a used, white shirt and patched pants, right? Just my .02

[skmo]

Seems to me your stake president doesn't understand the full ramifications of being excommunicated.

I'm fairly certain he did. On the outside chance he didn't, I did. I disagreed with some of the proceedings, but had the outcome been anything else, it would have worried me.

[skmo]

Clean, presentable clothing and a bath/shower should suffice, unless someone lives real close to Deseret Industries.

One of my best mission experiences was being in the Baltimore Ward. We had guys who wore handmade suits from Savile Row sitting next to families in sweats. Both felt welcomed. When one of the new, very well-off members asked why some people didn't come every week, he was told that sometimes people couldn't afford bus fare each week. He went out and bought a 15 passenger van and went around Sundays picking up people for church.

[freedomforall]

Clean, presentable clothing and a bath/shower should suffice, unless someone lives real close to Deseret Industries.

One of my best mission experiences was being in the Baltimore Ward. We had guys who wore handmade suits from Savile Row sitting next to families in sweats. Both felt welcomed. When one of the new, very well-off members asked why some people didn't come every week, he was told that sometimes people couldn't afford bus fare each week. He went out and bought a 15 passenger van and went around Sundays picking up people for church.

Now this is charity, understanding and compassion.