John Dehlin Facing Excommuncation

[freedomforall]

Ouch! :-ss

Very scary, imo. Very serious. God knows what He's talking about when He warns us, yet it seems we go on in our narrow way, trusting in ourselves, our preconceived ideas, and so forth. If you read Isaiah (which Nephi and Jesus both entreated in the Book of Mormon), you will see death and destruction. You will see haughtiness and pride.

2 Nephi 23:11-22 could very well be talking about people like ISIS and the destruction of the wicked (including the wicked (ISIS) who initiated the killing).

11 And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay down the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore, I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of Hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up; and they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is proud shall be thrust through; yea, and every one that is joined to the wicked shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes (ISIS?) against them, which shall not regard silver and gold, nor shall they delight in it.

18 Their bows shall also dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon (Baghdad is near this city, controls much of the same area, and is, apparently, what ISIS wants to conquer), the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces; and her time is near to come, and her day shall not be prolonged. For I will destroy her speedily; yea, for I will be merciful unto my people, but the wicked shall perish.

But, more than our temporal salvation is our spiritual. To come before God and feel the dread of having done something terrible and it is too late to undo it is a horrible feeling (Okay, I've only felt the latter, like when a car accident happens. Still ...).

The more I learn, the more I crave repentance and humility. The more I learn, the more I fear my own blindness, stubbornness, and pride.

YEP!

Alma 32:16
16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

SEE: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/initiative?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even so being compelled to be humble works too, but humbling ourselves is much better.

Alma 32:13,14
13 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved.
14 And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?

[jwharton]

This is the mode I have been in for about 10 years and I am sad to say that the more you learn and have your own blindness and pride removed the more you realize just how much trouble we are in as a people. And, then, when you can see that same blindness, stubbornness and pride for what it is and shed it, you are then in a position of seeing people you dearly love who truly seem to mean well remain in serious trouble. But, because of that blindness and deafness on their part you feel helpless to do anything for them because you actually are helpless until something compels them to be more humble.

So true. With open eyes comes a greater awareness of the boat we are in. And it's precarious and leaky at best. Like Alma, I would like to cry out with the voice of an angel, "Repentance!" but my own repentance is not complete. I still suck at so many things. Oh, that I were truly righteous and holy. Oh, that I had the connection with heaven that would give me such knowledge that my testimony would have the power of God behind it. Oh, that I could be an instrument in not only saving myself, but my family, friends, enemies, and anyone my voice might touch!

When a building is condemned it is slated to be demolished. People can blame whatever they want but when you come to see that God is who is actually operating the machinery to deliver blow after blow of a wrecking ball, you start to see that yes many changes are in fact God's will, but they are in essence the gates to our own demolition being opened.

Read D&C 133:62 for the repentance side of things we are talking about and then finish up that section to the end to see what becomes of those latter-day saints who maintain their opposition to the Celestial Plan of the Father we really need to be getting back to. He is speaking to the saints who have rejected the higher laws and who fight against them.

[freedomforall]

But, more than our temporal salvation is our spiritual. To come before God and feel the dread of having done something terrible and it is too late to undo it is a horrible feeling (Okay, I've only felt the latter, like when a car accident happens. Still ...).

The more I learn, the more I crave repentance and humility. The more I learn, the more I fear my own blindness, stubbornness, and pride.

This is the mode I have been in for about 10 years and I am sad to say that the more you learn and have your own blindness and pride removed the more you realize just how much trouble we are in as a people. And, then, when you can see that same blindness, stubbornness and pride for what it is and shed it, you are then in a position of seeing people you dearly love who truly seem to mean well remain in serious trouble. But, because of that blindness and deafness on their part you feel helpless to do anything for them because you actually are helpless until something compels them to be more humble. How much more blessed are those choose to remain humble and to genuinely look to root out these spiritual blinding characteristics. The biggest thing I see that helps is to simply love truth more than anything else and be willing to listen to and consider criticism. Seek it out and then go to the Lord with it for confirmation and assistance. The Lord will open your eyes to things that are sorely troubling, but which you need to see to repent. But, you have to have a heart strong enough to absorb the blow. The strength of our hearts ultimately is what determines how much truth we can handle.

The scriptures tell us it is hungering and thirsting after righteousness. How could anyone do this without being humble? Even self righteousness is not humility driven.

[A Random Phrase]

I'm just quoting what stuck out to me most. The whole thing from v 62 to end is worth reading and pondering.

62 And unto him that repenteth and sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life.

67 When I called again there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver.

70 And this shall ye have of my hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow.

71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.

74 Behold the Lord your God hath spoken it. Amen.

Powerful.

And, yes, I believe also that God is the one operating the machinery. All hell is breaking loose and has been for a while. It will get worse. But God allows it, even though many may think the nightmares happening are because there is no God or that He is impotent.

Still, I wish I had the voice of an angel. I wish I had the connection with heaven that "it were not possible that they could disbelieve [my] words, for so great was [my] faith on the Lord Jesus Christ."

And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 7:18)

[freedomforall]

I'm just quoting what stuck out to me most. The whole thing from v 62 to end is worth reading and pondering.

62 And unto him that repenteth and sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life.

67 When I called again there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver.

70 And this shall ye have of my hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow.

71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.

74 Behold the Lord your God hath spoken it. Amen.

Powerful.

And, yes, I believe also that God is the one operating the machinery. All hell is breaking loose and has been for a while. It will get worse. But God allows it, even though many may think the nightmares happening are because there is no God or that He is impotent.

Still, I wish I had the voice of an angel. I wish I had the connection with heaven that "it were not possible that they could disbelieve [my] words, for so great was [my] faith on the Lord Jesus Christ."

And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 7:18)

We can do our best in promoting faith, hope and charity and feasting on the word. Then the Holy Spirit can and will cause understanding to those seeking it.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

[A Random Phrase]

Thank you, friend. That is encouraging.

[skmo]

Unfortunately Dannyk, the church is not concerned about the member, it is only concerned with itself -- The Church. It can and will show no mercy and no compassion no matter how high the body count gets.

Wow. Other than campaign promises or awards banquet speeches, I can't really recall a more incorrect or foolish statement.

[skmo]

you're never released from doing what you know you're supposed to do, membership or no membership.

True, but as an excommunicate a person brings less condemnation as they're no longer bound by their covenants. When I was excommunicated, the SP pointed out that one positive aspect was that if I continued choosing sin, by being released from my membership I was lessening the condemnation. However, I pointed out that I could never be released from my responsibility to magnify my Priesthood, so I understood the urgency in getting re-baptized.

[skmo]

By excommunicating JD, the Church is sending a clear message to those who have doubts, that you'd better "doubt your doubts" and just shut up.

I don't see it that way. The message I see is that to be a part of God's organization on earth, you make covenants. If you break those covenants, you need to repent. If you not only refuse to repent, but you flaunt your disobedience in addition to proclaiming the organization to be invalid, a complete separation is in the best interest of both parties.

Ultimately, it will just drive more people away who may have stayed and tried to make it work.

We are definitely in the part of the Plan of Salvation which needs the refiner's fire. Every opportunity to avoid excommunication in disciplinary courts is used, but ultimately everyone makes their own choice about whether they're on God's side or not. I can't see how JD would have preferred to be allowed to stay a member if he believes the church is wrong. The church is not a tea party or a social club. It is God's organization of His Kingdom on earth.

The only way this can work is if the people near the bottom sincerely believe that the people near the top are inspired and directed by God. If you call that into question, you are a threat to the organization.

If you call it into question, find the truth before you jump ship. If you find your answer is no, I would think you would be pleased to go.

[skmo]

Alas tis true . Many years ago during the Sept 6 mass excommunications I remember a discussion with someone who was in a position of authority telling me " you can believe anything you want in this church as long as you keep you mouth shut and remember it may be true but if it isn't edifying keep quiet". Nothing has improved in all these years.

That is definitely not what Christ would tell someone. It is also not what official church policy would tell someone. I can see how a zealot might say something like that, and/or I can see how someone might say it if they were angry. However, please don't allow the imperfections of individuals to be mistaken for fault in the Gospel or a sign that the LDS Church isn't run on earth by God's prophet.

[skmo]

Perhaps we could encourage excoms to report hateful behavior, and seriously try to counsel it out of the offenders.

As a current "excom" I'll be happy to report hateful behavior, but I doubt I'm likely to have anything to report. I don't really get verbal interaction at church, seeing as how I'm not supposed to participate in the discussions, but I've always been happy to discuss my situation out of church. I don't get hate from people, and if I get discomfort or shunning I do what I can to confront and ameliorate it. I like to say I follow Lionel Richie in that I'm Easy like Sunday Morning. I don't get offended, I almost never get my feelings hurt (it's happened a couple of times in the past few years, but only because a few people I've known and loved for 25-40 years betrayed me) and I'm not uncomfortable discussing my strengths and failings with equal aplomb. If someone does go out of their way to be rude or asinine, I'm usually accomplished enough with words and rhetoric to make them look like an idiot.

By the way, humility is obviously not always one of my strongest points. With God, yes, it is. With everyone else, it's about a 50/50 shot.

[skmo]

It seems to be the trend these days to make very public pronouncements about one's excommunication. (The Church isn't publishing it, but the individuals themselves seem to be proud of it.)

As I am now in a position to be active again on this forum, many may notice I am not at all reticent about discussing my excommunication. I definitely agree with kathyn for some cases, I do not wear my status with honor. At the same time, I am not ashamed of my excommunication. I am ashamed I chose to live in such a manner as to require my excommunication, but I'm not hesitant to discuss it openly in the hopes others may learn from my mistakes. To any and all, I invite you to ask me anything you wish about my experiences.

[skmo]

An excommunicated member has been deemed unrepentant.

I feel the need to point out my disagreement with your interpretation. I was not deemed unrepentant, in fact it was clear I was quite humble and accepting of my guilt and shame. I expressed gratitude to some on the court for their obvious concern with my status and progress. I was, in turn, thanked for my humble and willing attitude as a continuing part of my repentance.

[skmo]

If anyone sees their excommunication, cancellation of temple sealing and forfeiture of temple endowment and blessings as a light thing, they might not be worthy of them.

I do not see it as a light thing, but I do see it as a positive thing in my case.

[skmo]

What is ridiculous is that people don't know how to use references. What I posted still goes.

Blood in the urine is often caused by kidney stones. Kidney stones are created by kidneys. Kidneys are organs. The pancreas is an organ that creates insulin. Low insulin production can cause diabetes. Therefore, if you have blood in your urine, you may have diabetes.

Be intelligent about how you use references. 84:41 is clearly about the obtaining of the TWO Priesthoods, not

The covenant spoken here is our baptismal covenants.

I am going to assume JD has the Melchizedek Priesthood, and so perhaps this scripture applies. Perhaps there is more to it than I can read, and luckily I am not required to sit in judgment over him. However, I do not believe turning away from baptismal covenants makes one a son of perdition.

[skmo]

So where does this leave us sinners that have to tarry and fight off Satan 24/7?

With the Prodigal Son's brother, standing outside and refusing to celebrate the return of a lost soul, dealing with anger until (hopefully) humility softens the heart.

[skmo]

He chose pride and continued to intellectualize his way to hell, should he remain unrepentant of his part in leading many away from the light. Now, this statement might seem harsh, and I apologize for the lack of discretion, but their is no other way to accurately describe my sentiments of what Mr. John Dehlin was literally doing.

It does seem harsh. Kind of like a doctor telling someone they have stage 4 pancreatic cancer. For some unpleasant things, there is no way to express the truth of a situation without blunt honesty.

Regardless, wither he or any of you unbelievers know it or not he was actually assisting Satan in leading many saints away, just as how Lucifer led 1/3 spirits to hell.

Yes. Not with a satan that is red, scaly, with a bifurcated tail and carrying a hay fork, but with subtlety and deceit.

[freedomforall]

What is ridiculous is that people don't know how to use references. What I posted still goes.

Blood in the urine is often caused by kidney stones. Kidney stones are created by kidneys. Kidneys are organs. The pancreas is an organ that creates insulin. Low insulin production can cause diabetes. Therefore, if you have blood in your urine, you may have diabetes.

Be intelligent about how you use references. 84:41 is clearly about the obtaining of the TWO Priesthoods, not

The covenant spoken here is our baptismal covenants.

I am going to assume JD has the Melchizedek Priesthood, and so perhaps this scripture applies. Perhaps there is more to it than I can read, and luckily I am not required to sit in judgment over him. However, I do not believe turning away from baptismal covenants makes one a son of perdition.

Hey, skmo, where ya been? Or have I just been posting on threads you have not participated on? Nice to hear from you.

Let's look at D&C 84:41

41 But whoso breaketh this (a)covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall (b)not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

Notice reference (a), it refers to the topical guide for apostasy. Therefore, we have all these points involved with apostasy:
Apostasy of Individuals

whose heart turneth away … from the Lord: Deut. 29:18 .
Solomon … heart was turned from the Lord: 1 Kgs. 11:9 . ( 1 Kgs. 11:4–13 . )
Where there is no vision, the people perish: Prov. 29:18 .
changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant: Isa. 24:5 .
whose heart departeth from the Lord: Jer. 17:5 .
righteous man turneth away from his righteousness: Ezek. 18:26 .
if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity: Ezek. 33:13 .
righteous turneth from his righteousness … shall even die: Ezek. 33:18 .
beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall: Matt. 7:27 .
last state of that man is worse than the first: Matt. 12:45 .
when tribulation … ariseth … by and by he is offended: Matt. 13:21 .
iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold: Matt. 24:12 .
servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not: Luke 12:47 .
every one that doeth evil hateth the light: John 3:20 .
many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him: John 6:66 .
speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples: Acts 20:30 .
I marvel that ye are so soon removed … unto another gospel: Gal. 1:6 .
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: Heb. 6:6 .
if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge: Heb. 10:26 .
dog is turned to his own vomit again: 2 Pet. 2:22 .
they wandered off and were lost: 1 Ne. 8:23 .
scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths: 1 Ne. 8:28 .
devil, which blindeth the eyes, … leadeth them away: 1 Ne. 12:17 .
How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts: 1 Ne. 15:10 .
spoken unto you … but ye were past feeling: 1 Ne. 17:45 .
devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery: 2 Ne. 9:46 .
devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully: 2 Ne. 28:21 .
know nothing … and … are taken captive by the devil: Alma 12:11 .
scriptures … ye will wrest them … to your own destruction: Alma 13:20 . ( Alma 41:1 . )
once enlightened … and then have fallen away into sin: Alma 24:30 .
fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments: Alma 31:9 .
if ye neglect the tree, … it withers away: Alma 32:38 .
Now these dissenters, having the same instruction: Alma 47:36 . ( Alma 48:24 ; Hel. 5:35 . )
they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord: Hel. 12:2 .
sought for happiness in doing iniquity: Hel. 13:38 .
built upon a sandy foundation … they shall fall: 3 Ne. 18:13 .
watch and pray always, lest ye be tempted … led away captive: 3 Ne. 18:15 .
transfigured the holy word … bring damnation upon your souls: Morm. 8:33 .
strayed … broken mine everlasting covenant: D&C 1:15 .
because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall: D&C 3:9 . ( D&C 3:4–11 . )
he flattereth them, … causeth them to catch themselves: D&C 10:26 .
revelation, … prophecy, for wo unto him that denieth these: D&C 11:25 .
fear … cares of the world caused him to reject the word: D&C 40:2 .
Otherwise he shall … be cut off out of my church: D&C 56:10 .
he who sins against the greater light … greater condemnation: D&C 82:3 .
soul that … hardeneth his heart … buffetings of Satan: D&C 82:21 .
whoso breaketh this covenant … shall not have forgiveness: D&C 84:41 .
your minds … have been darkened because of unbelief: D&C 84:54 .
blasphemed against me in the midst of my house: D&C 112:26 .
there are those among you who deny my name: D&C 114:2 .
undertake to cover our sins, … Amen to the priesthood: D&C 121:37 .
draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me: JS—H 1:19 .

Next we have reference (b) , which refers to these verses:

D&C 41:1
1 Hearken and hear, O ye my people, saith the Lord and your God, ye whom I delight to bless with the greatest of all blessings, ye that hear me; and ye that hear me not will I curse, that have professed my name, with the heaviest of all cursings.

D&C 42:18
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

D&C 76:34
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

D&C 132:27
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

So...can we take it that once a person has accepted the new and everlasting covenant and then commits murder, which assents to Christ's death, there is no forgiveness?
Also, after a person accepts the covenant, then not only departs from it but actually turns altogether from it in doing sin...then is in a position of not being forgiven?

Seems pretty clear to me it doesn't involve just the two priesthoods for there is no mention of them. However, it is a given that for anyone seeking the new and everlasting covenant would obtain the two priesthoods along the way. But it is the turning away altogether from these covenants that cause "no forgiveness". In effect, the guilty party has only slapped the Savior in the face and said, I want no part of your atonement. This is extremely serious stuff.

I, therefore, conclude there is a two-fold way of not being forgiven...turning away altogether and murder...according to these verses.

[natasha]

SKMO: I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. In all my years as a member of the Church, I have had experiences with a few people who have been excommunicated. As you have said, it can and should be a humbling experience....for everyone involved. I have also watched as these people have come back. My observations are very much like yours and those of us who might be bystanders, I believe, have an obligation to express love and concern. So many times in public life situations I have witnessed that people who are guilty of wrong doing are NEVER forgiven by the public. I had the opportunity to work as a volunteer for two years at the Utah State Prison in one of their four family history centers on the inside. Associating with these men and watching the enormous amount of work they did and continue to do in the Church with the extraction/indexing program, I couldn't help but think that after they have served their time, the real rough road would still be ahead as society as a rule is not very forgiving. Aren't we charged with the responsibility of our brothers and sisters in the gospel to help and love them in their return home?

[natasha]

Freedomforall posted some very pertinent scriptures. The item that stood out most for me, however, was "and ALTOGETHER turneth therefrom" (covenants)....indicating, to me, that humbling oneself and truly being repentant is the key. In other words, NOT turning away altogether but working to make amends and returning.

[skmo]

There will come a day when the church will do something you disagree with. Are you going to count it as a sin upon your head when you disagree with something the church does or says - because you don't agree with it?

Already happened. I disagreed with President Monson on the church remaining affiliated with the Boy Scouts, and I've been critical about it. Had I been told to cease my public criticism or face excommunication, I would have done so unless moved by the Spirit not to, after which I would have accepted excommunication. It's moot now anyway, as I was later ex'd for a different, and understandable reason.

How will you feel when you encounter a leader who calls you a liar... or something else that is IMPORTANT TO YOU?

Been there, too. When my bishop wrongly berated my wife and made her cry, I rode my motorcycle over to his house, held him off the floor against the wall with my forearm across his throat and told him one more mistake like that and he'd explain his misdeeds directly to God. Luckily for me (and him) he knew he was wrong and apologized sincerely to both of us. I apologized to him for losing my temper and to his wife for scaring her (she was in the front room with him) and we stayed good friends the rest of the time he was my bishop. I will always respect a person's title, but if they abuse it I don't care how high above me it is, I will take the action I deem appropriate.

I don't particularly agree with John on many of his issues, but who cares? Does that mean he has no right to breathe the same church air as me?

Not at all. As an excommunicate, I have already been told by the bishop of the ward I live in that he expects to see me there every week at church. He says it with a smile, and he hugs me when I leave his office. I breathe the same air, I hear the same words, I feel the same Spirit (albeit not constantly) and I sing the same hymns.

The difference between John and most of us is NOT that he disagrees, it's that he has the balls to say so, and to ask questions and seek answers.

To me, this is the most outrageous of your statements here. The difference is that JD actively taught doctrine contrary to the teachings of God, he refused to humble himself and abide his covenants, and he encouraged others away from the gospel. It has nothing to do with his balls or what he does with them, it has to do with his foot and his refusal to stop putting it in his mouth.

[freedomforall]

SKMO: I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. In all my years as a member of the Church, I have had experiences with a few people who have been excommunicated. As you have said, it can and should be a humbling experience....for everyone involved. I have also watched as these people have come back. My observations are very much like yours and those of us who might be bystanders, I believe, have an obligation to express love and concern. So many times in public life situations I have witnessed that people who are guilty of wrong doing are NEVER forgiven by the public. I had the opportunity to work as a volunteer for two years at the Utah State Prison in one of their four family history centers on the inside. Associating with these men and watching the enormous amount of work they did and continue to do in the Church with the extraction/indexing program, I couldn't help but think that after they have served their time, the real rough road would still be ahead as society as a rule is not very forgiving. Aren't we charged with the responsibility of our brothers and sisters in the gospel to help and love them in their return home?

Those who fall and come back is a good thing. Those who fall and turn away altogether, now that's another animal.
And, yes, we are to treat people with love, fore:

Mosiah 26
29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.
30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

There are those that talk about trusting in bishops etc is nothing more than trusting in the arm of flesh. But look at verse 29. Christ says we have to confess to clergy, as in thee and me, and then he will forgive us...not the other way around.

[skmo]

Hey, skmo, where ya been? Or have I just been posting on threads you have not participated on? Nice to hear from you.

Long story, fairly sordid, lots of anger, shame, pain, and anger, probably best left to another discussion. Good to be back, good to be retired.

Seems pretty clear to me it doesn't involve just the two priesthoods for there is no mention of them.

84:33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

It then goes on with (basically) ...and you become the seeds and the sons and receive all... and so on. Not just baptism. Certainly baptism is a part of it, but not all. I believe there are degrees. I have never had my C&E, so I don't believe I can yet be forever condemned as a son of perdition. I'm currently excommunicated, so I'm not in a great place, especially since I have received the Two Priesthoods and am responsible to get myself into a place where I can continue to magnify them, but I also believe God when He said His Grace was sufficient. Had I gone very anti, publically condemning the church as false, I still believe I could obtain forgiveness. Even apostasy is a state that can be changed.

I believe "Turn away altogether" means right up until judgment. Until that is passed, repentance may be applied (in most cases.)

Good to be back.

[jwharton]

you're never released from doing what you know you're supposed to do, membership or no membership.

True, but as an excommunicate a person brings less condemnation as they're no longer bound by their covenants. When I was excommunicated, the SP pointed out that one positive aspect was that if I continued choosing sin, by being released from my membership I was lessening the condemnation. However, I pointed out that I could never be released from my responsibility to magnify my Priesthood, so I understood the urgency in getting re-baptized.

Seems to me your stake president doesn't understand the full ramifications of being excommunicated.
Ironically, this puts him in greater danger of administering it upon someone in unrighteousness.
If it is being used as a tool for the church to undertake to cover its sins and/or to fight against the Father's Plan rather than properly administer the laws of the church, there's a good many stake presidents who are going to weep and wail and gnash their teeth when they find that they have participated in Luciferian "murder for gain" and that they have brought perdition upon themselves thereby. When the church is set in order all ordinances will be ratified or nullified based upon what is just and true.

[skmo]

What is he supposed to repent of, and to whom? Seeking answers? Seeking answers publicly? Having ideas you don't agree with? Stating them publicly? Sinful apostate, indeed.

Yes, indeed. He is supposed to repent of proclaiming God's teachings false and promoting satan's teachings as true. He is supposed to repent to God. To maintain God's nature of an organized being, along the way part of this process will need to be facilitated by a Judge in Israel due to the hierarchical nature of the Priesthood JD has covenanted to uphold and magnify. This judge is his Stake President.

The thing is (as I tried to explain earlier), if John never said a word about these inner struggles and questions of his, he might be the EQ pres, or in the bishopric, or even "higher"!

Here you are correct. Had he dealt with his doubts himself, with his family, in church organization meetings, and/or with his bishop/SP, he likely would not have been excommunicated. Having doubts is not a sin. Proclaiming doubts is not a sin. Proclaiming the gospel to be wrong, the BoM to be untrue, leading souls away from God is a sin. I have always had inner struggles with desire and questions of "Why can't I have sex with every living, willing thing I want to?" Had the desires stayed in my head, had the questions stayed in my heart, had other parts of me stayed where they should have, I would not have been excommunicated. Homosexuals are not excommunicated for being gay or having desires to have intimate relations with someone of the same gender. If they give in to their desires, it is a sin. JD gave in. He can have all the doubts he wants. He may not teach others the gospel is untrue and remain a part of God's church without repentance.

They simply keep their mouth shut and play the game

It's not a game. It's part of eternal salvation.

But I certainly don't think he's a sinner because he disagrees with half the people in the church, and what the leadership says he's "supposed to" believe in.

You're right, he's not a sinner because he disagrees with half of the church members, or even because he disagrees with church leaders say. He's a sinner because of his actions in preaching false doctrine, for testifying against God's teachings, for encouraging others to follow him in defiance of the gospel.

It frightens me that opinions will result in leadership imposing spiritual death upon a person.

They won't. Setting yourself above God's leaders and deceiving others to follow you will.

I thought excommunication was reserved for "gross sins", not disagreeing with people.

Preaching false doctrine IS a gross sin. The stake president was very clear about that. He was not excommunicated for his beliefs, his doubts, or his questions. He was excommunicated for his actions in preaching doctrine contrary to God's. If I were a member of PETA, and I tried to convince the organization that eating bacon was the morally correct thing to do, they'd rightly kick me out. If it's correct for a group of brain-dead, whack-job nut cases, it's even more correct for God's church.