John Dehlin Facing Excommuncation

[BenMcCrea]

John Dehlin started out as a devout faithful member of the Church. His doubts began when he served a mission in Guatemala and saw the deceptive techniques that were being used to boost baptismal figures.

It's important to remember that Christ is the head of the Church and everyone else is capable of deception and sin. Trust not in the arm of flesh.

[Obrien]

Jules, I know you can handle the heat of the haters.

theres no haters, unless you're referring to her getting her hate on with the church.
President King is a good man. He's not my SP, but I do live in Cache County. He has a stewardship over the flock of his stake. He tried, as Dehlin admits, multiple times to get Dehlin to stop teaching, entertaining and broadcasting false doctrine. Dehlin, like so many others, refused. Exing him was not an act of unrighteous dominion. I'm a bit surprised you think it is, Obrien.

I'm surprised at myself. I have officially changed my position on John Dehlin. I think we should stone him for being a former heretic, and now an apostate. Let he who possesses perfect understanding cast the first stone.

36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.

[Obrien]

Jules, I know you can handle the heat of the haters. FWIW, I love you, as a sister and a friend. Thanks for teaching me all you have over the last year.

So...if we disagree with many of you on this forum...that makes us "haters"?

Jules has gotten a lot of sh!t from people on this forum and others. Judge yourself, Natasha - I won't judge you.

[shadow]

Jules, I know you can handle the heat of the haters. FWIW, I love you, as a sister and a friend. Thanks for teaching me all you have over the last year.

So...if we disagree with many of you on this forum...that makes us "haters"?

Jules has gotten a lot of sh!t from people on this forum and others. Judge yourself, Natasha - I won't judge you.

She can dish it out just fine, I'm sure she can handle the rebuttals.

[Joel]

She can dish it out just fine, I'm sure she can handle the rebuttals.

[Epistemology]

OB wan OBrien,

Please don't take this as a backhanded compliment cuz it's not. Rather, a compliment wrapped in personal opinion.

I commend you for the care you take in showing love and kindness towards your fellow man. You do a great job of making sure all feel there is a champion for their cause. You do a great job of making people feel they count and their input is valued and matters even though sometimes emotion seems to dominate objective obaervation

[Obrien]

Not to be a cad, I'll say Thank you for that compliment, in public.

[notjamesbond003.5]

However, with the foibles Joseph had -he continued to point people to Christ.

John on the other hand w his foibles not only doesn't know Christ but chooses to -point people to Doubt.

Therein lies the difference.

njb

Another difference is Joseph was an excommunicator while John is an excommunicatee. You could argue that persons with delusions of grandeur are more dangerous who hold positions of authority and the keys of heaven and hell.

Also, doubt doesn't always lead people away from Christ. It very well may lead a person on a journey to Christ. And doubt in what? Official histories, story lines etc? There are some things for which it is good to doubt.

But what I find amusing are those chomping at the bit to join the crowds cheering one way or another. Maybe delusions all around.

Ajax,

Regardless who is the or or the ee in this scenario, had JD been alive in Joseph's Smith's day he woulda have been held before a court and excommunicated much quicker, obfuscate as you may, but your reasoning is wrong here. I think the mainstream church has been extremely patient w him.


Regarding your 2nd point purveyors of doubt usually lead people away from Christ.

To your 3rd point, for the most part Church History is accurate. I don't need a self appointed Truth Monitor who doubts and discredits the Restoration to ascertain which is the correct version of events, I have the Spirit in me to ascertain the accuracy of past events and their veracity.

Your 4th point, no one is chomping at bit. We celebrate patience tempered w mercy and in the end -let the chips fall where they may.

njb

[ajax]

Ajax,

Regardless who is the or or the ee in this scenario, had JD been alive in Joseph's Smith's day he woulda have been held before a court and excommunicated much quicker, obfuscate as you may, but your reasoning is wrong here. I think the mainstream church has been extremely patient w him. It wouldn't be the first time my reasoning is wrong. It seems the church has been patient. I would like to know however who brought the initial charges against Dehlin? The COB? Is the church following its own protocol? As a libertarian, I naturally tend to side with those not in authority, as abuse of authority is the common lot of mankind. Could be an internal bias I'm channeling.

Regarding your 2nd point purveyors of doubt usually lead people away from Christ. Not always, Perhaps that's why you said usually. ;)

To your 3rd point, for the most part Church History is accurate. I don't need a self appointed Truth Monitor who doubts and discredits the Restoration to ascertain which is the correct version of events, I have the Spirit in me to ascertain the accuracy of past events and their veracity. We also don't need self-appointed or even official gate keepers who say, you can't go there or see this or explore that. Hiding history is never good and the church ought not be afraid of truth. I agree with the spirit part.

Your 4th point, no one is chomping at bit. We celebrate patience tempered w mercy and in the end -let the chips fall where they may.
IDK, Dehlin followers seems to be chomping at the bit to expose and self appointed gate keepers seem to be chomping at the bit to lop off.

njb

Wow, I didn't know I made 4 points, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. Maybe just talking past each other. I'm speaking more in generalizations rather than specifics. The only reason I entered this thread was to take a snarky contrarian position, which is actually decent position to take to flesh out more ideas. I have really have no dog in this fight.

[notjamesbond003.5]

Was snarkiness ever Happiness ?

Njb

;)

[natasha]

Jules, I know you can handle the heat of the haters. FWIW, I love you, as a sister and a friend. Thanks for teaching me all you have over the last year.

So...if we disagree with many of you on this forum...that makes us "haters"?

Jules has gotten a lot of sh!t from people on this forum and others. Judge yourself, Natasha - I won't judge you.

Obrien: I don't understand your response to my just asking a simple question....wanting to know what defines a "hater" on this forum...really, nothing more, nothing less. I was not judging anyone.

[ajax]

Was snarkiness ever Happiness ?

Njb

;)

Only on the LDSFF.

[Obrien]

So...if we disagree with many of you on this forum...that makes us "haters"?

Jules has gotten a lot of sh!t from people on this forum and others. Judge yourself, Natasha - I won't judge you.

Obrien: I don't understand your response to my just asking a simple question....wanting to know what defines a "hater" on this forum...really, nothing more, nothing less. I was not judging anyone.

Natasha- I meant "hater" as I hear my kids / the youth at church use it. From the urban dictionary website:

Hater: A person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person.
Hating, the result of being a hater, is not exactly jealousy. The hater doesn't really want to be the person he or she hates, rather the hater wants to knock someone else down a notch.

This was the context in which I used hater. That said, I suppose "hating" is endemic to any interactive online forum.

[Joel]

Here is a transcript the of August 7, 2014 meeting with President Bryan King.

[notjamesbond003.5]

Here is a transcript the of August 7, 2014 meeting with President Bryan King.

This will b interesting..

Njb

[Elizabeth]

Shows how slow moving and patient the process has been. From all accounts it would seem the present outcome could have rightly occurred some time ago.

[FSM]

IV never heard of Dehlin before. So was ge negative all the time to the church or something?

[A Random Phrase]

Jules, I know you can handle the heat of the haters.

theres no haters,

I don't see that, either. I see strong disagreement. I see some misunderstanding of words ("dishonest" = "You called me a liar" when, maybe it was referring to the rules of debate (is that what they are?), i.e. "intellectual dishonesty"). I see people looking past each other instead of looking for common ground. I see that we could love and accept each other more in spite of our differences.

[A Random Phrase]

There is a huge difference in actually being righteous and pretending to be.

True.

And what is sad is that we are often blind to our own unrighteousness. We think we are right, righteous, holy, and on the Lord's errand when we may be defensive, contentious, and judgmental. We need to be oh, so careful. It is so easy to not see our own flaws. That, imo, is why we are to look at ourselves, to humble ourselves to the dust before God, to acknowledge our own unworthiness before God at all times.

The more I learn, the more I am afraid to cast stones at another and say, "I'm right and you are wrong. Repent! ye fiend!"

14 Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren; but rather say: O Lord, forgive my unworthiness, and remember my brethren in mercy—yea, acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 38:14)

[freedomforall]

There is a huge difference in actually being righteous and pretending to be.

True.

And what is sad is that we are often blind to our own unrighteousness. We think we are right, righteous, holy, and on the Lord's errand when we may be defensive, contentious, and judgmental. We need to be oh, so careful. It is so easy to not see our own flaws. That, imo, is why we are to look at ourselves, to humble ourselves to the dust before God, to acknowledge our own unworthiness before God at all times.

The more I learn, the more I am afraid to cast stones at another and say, "I'm right and you are wrong. Repent! ye fiend!"

14 Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren; but rather say: O Lord, forgive my unworthiness, and remember my brethren in mercy—yea, acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 38:14)

One thing is for certain...God accepts no wooden nickles. If we are not the genuine, righteous article we will be thrust down to hell.

Does God mean what he says or not?

Morm. 8:19
19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[A Random Phrase]

One thing is for certain...God accepts no wooden nickles. If we are not the genuine, righteous article we will be thrust down to hell.

Does God mean what he says or not?

Morm. 8:19
19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

As Joseph Smith said, "God is not trifling with you or me." This is serious stuff, and the sooner we learn to take it seriously, the better off we will be.

I think all hell has already begun to break forth (the burnings and so forth of people by ISIS, and how much bolder the terrorists have become in killing people while others watch, like in England), and that it will get worse. I believe it will become so bad that many who thought they trusted in the Lord or in his servants will find themselves forsaken (as they suppose), when they really weren't as much on the Lord's side as they had supposed.

The messages from God to humble ourselves to the dust, to repent, to avoid contention, and so forth are of great import. If we don't heed them, we will find ourselves in a nightmare we don't know how to escape from. Perhaps many times over.

[freedomforall]

One thing is for certain...God accepts no wooden nickles. If we are not the genuine, righteous article we will be thrust down to hell.

Does God mean what he says or not?

Morm. 8:19
19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

As Joseph Smith said, "God is not trifling with you or me." This is serious stuff, and the sooner we learn to take it seriously, the better off we will be.

I think all hell has already begun to break forth (the burnings and so forth of people by ISIS, and how much bolder the terrorists have become in killing people while others watch, like in England), and that it will get worse. I believe it will become so bad that many who thought they trusted in the Lord or in his servants will find themselves forsaken (as they suppose), when they really weren't as much on the Lord's side as they had supposed.

The messages from God to humble ourselves to the dust, to repent, to avoid contention, and so forth are of great import. If we don't heed them, we will find ourselves in a nightmare we don't know how to escape from. Perhaps many times over.

Ouch! :-ss

[A Random Phrase]

Ouch! :-ss

Very scary, imo. Very serious. God knows what He's talking about when He warns us, yet it seems we go on in our narrow way, trusting in ourselves, our preconceived ideas, and so forth. If you read Isaiah (which Nephi and Jesus both entreated in the Book of Mormon), you will see death and destruction. You will see haughtiness and pride.

2 Nephi 23:11-22 could very well be talking about people like ISIS and the destruction of the wicked (including the wicked (ISIS) who initiated the killing).

11 And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay down the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore, I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of Hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up; and they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is proud shall be thrust through; yea, and every one that is joined to the wicked shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes (ISIS?) against them, which shall not regard silver and gold, nor shall they delight in it.

18 Their bows shall also dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon (Baghdad is near this city, controls much of the same area, and is, apparently, what ISIS wants to conquer), the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces; and her time is near to come, and her day shall not be prolonged. For I will destroy her speedily; yea, for I will be merciful unto my people, but the wicked shall perish.

But, more than our temporal salvation is our spiritual. To come before God and feel the dread of having done something terrible and it is too late to undo it is a horrible feeling (Okay, I've only felt the latter, like when a car accident happens. Still ...).

The more I learn, the more I crave repentance and humility. The more I learn, the more I fear my own blindness, stubbornness, and pride.

[jwharton]

But, more than our temporal salvation is our spiritual. To come before God and feel the dread of having done something terrible and it is too late to undo it is a horrible feeling (Okay, I've only felt the latter, like when a car accident happens. Still ...).

The more I learn, the more I crave repentance and humility. The more I learn, the more I fear my own blindness, stubbornness, and pride.

This is the mode I have been in for about 10 years and I am sad to say that the more you learn and have your own blindness and pride removed the more you realize just how much trouble we are in as a people. And, then, when you can see that same blindness, stubbornness and pride for what it is and shed it, you are then in a position of seeing people you dearly love who truly seem to mean well remain in serious trouble. But, because of that blindness and deafness on their part you feel helpless to do anything for them because you actually are helpless until something compels them to be more humble. How much more blessed are those choose to remain humble and to genuinely look to root out these spiritual blinding characteristics. The biggest thing I see that helps is to simply love truth more than anything else and be willing to listen to and consider criticism. Seek it out and then go to the Lord with it for confirmation and assistance. The Lord will open your eyes to things that are sorely troubling, but which you need to see to repent. But, you have to have a heart strong enough to absorb the blow. The strength of our hearts ultimately is what determines how much truth we can handle.

[A Random Phrase]

This is the mode I have been in for about 10 years and I am sad to say that the more you learn and have your own blindness and pride removed the more you realize just how much trouble we are in as a people. And, then, when you can see that same blindness, stubbornness and pride for what it is and shed it, you are then in a position of seeing people you dearly love who truly seem to mean well remain in serious trouble. But, because of that blindness and deafness on their part you feel helpless to do anything for them because you actually are helpless until something compels them to be more humble.

So true. With open eyes comes a greater awareness of the boat we are in. And it's precarious and leaky at best. Like Alma, I would like to cry out with the voice of an angel, "Repentance!" but my own repentance is not complete. I still suck at so many things. Oh, that I were truly righteous and holy. Oh, that I had the connection with heaven that would give me such knowledge that my testimony would have the power of God behind it. Oh, that I could be an instrument in not only saving myself, but my family, friends, enemies, and anyone my voice might touch!