John Dehlin Facing Excommuncation

[EmmaLee]

"Sorcerer", lol The word I actually typed starts with a "b" and rhymes with witch.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

No, clearly my point was lost.

You gave two conflicting, opposing points of view (as I clearly demonstrated above) and then put the blame on others for not being able to understand your point? :-\

It's simple - if a person believes the church does not have power and authority from God (which you and Dehlin and many others here obviously believe, right?), then that person should not be concerned or worried or care about the church being able to have ANY effect on a person's spiritual standing, as the church has no power.

So which is it - does the church have the power or not?

You are still missing my point. The church has PERCEIVED power. To MOST people, excommunication simply for thinking differently would be devastating because the church purports that they are the only ones on earth who can save you. If they cast you out, that is perceived as cutting you off from the possibility of having any blessings unless you conform / "repent"/allow the thinking to be done for you. The church is playing God with people simply for disagreeing. That is the kind of unrighteous dominion D&C 121 is talking about. The church operates based upon a fear/conformity system. If you don't conform then you are cast out and labled as evil, sinful, apostate, or whatever tag you want to put on the person. That is unrighteous exercise of power the church has over people -whether the power is real or perceived.

OF COURSE I don't think the church can actually take any blessings away God has already bestowed upon someone. NO man can. But most Mormons DO believe that they can and do, and that fear of having blessings removed is used to keep people in line.

[EmmaLee]

Okay, thank you. I get all that and understand what you're saying about the perceived power and what most active members tend to believe, etc.... But what I still don't understand is why any of this matters to people who have left the church - especially ones who have left because of doctrinal issues (as opposed to some other reasons). I'm not saying that in a snotty way - I genuinely don't get it. For example, if I left the church because I no longer believed Christ was at its head, or was excommunicated because I was publicly preaching blatant anti-LDS doctrine (whether it's true or not in reality, doesn't matter for what I'm asking here) - I would not for one second give a crap what the church did or said about me or those like me! So that's the part I don't understand - why you and others here care anymore? (said sincerely)

[Thinker]

Tabula,
It makes sense that if someone really didn't like an organization, they'd want to leave even before being asked to.

Yet, there are a couple of issues of excommunication.
Even if you disagree with some aspects of your family or extended "ward" family, you likely still consider yourself part of them.
Also, Jesus never excommunicated anyone.

Then again, I suppose that standards without boundaries/rules are wishy-washy and not taken seriously.

[Daryl]

No, clearly my point was lost.

You gave two conflicting, opposing points of view (as I clearly demonstrated above) and then put the blame on others for not being able to understand your point? :-\

It's simple - if a person believes the church does not have power and authority from God (which you and Dehlin and many others here obviously believe, right?), then that person should not be concerned or worried or care about the church being able to have ANY effect on a person's spiritual standing, as the church has no power.

So which is it - does the church have the power or not?

You are still missing my point. The church has PERCEIVED power. To MOST people, excommunication simply for thinking differently would be devastating because the church purports that they are the only ones on earth who can save you. If they cast you out, that is perceived as cutting you off from the possibility of having any blessings unless you conform / "repent"/allow the thinking to be done for you. The church is playing God with people simply for disagreeing. That is the kind of unrighteous dominion D&C 121 is talking about. The church operates based upon a fear/conformity system. If you don't conform then you are cast out and labled as evil, sinful, apostate, or whatever tag you want to put on the person. That is unrighteous exercise of power the church has over people -whether the power is real or perceived.

OF COURSE I don't think the church can actually take any blessings away God has already bestowed upon someone. NO man can. But most Mormons DO believe that they can and do, and that fear of having blessings removed is used to keep people in line.

Shoot Jules, why don't you just come out and say what you are really thinking. OMGosh. I could not agree with you more.

[sushi_chef]

perhaps because restored gospel is true, and yet church authorites/members could be wrong....so, gospel and church arent the same....
:-B

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Okay, thank you. I get all that and understand what you're saying about the perceived power and what most active members tend to believe, etc.... But what I still don't understand is why any of this matters to people who have left the church - especially ones who have left because of doctrinal issues (as opposed to some other reasons). I'm not saying that in a snotty way - I genuinely don't get it. For example, if I left the church because I no longer believed Christ was at its had, or was excommunicated because I was publicly preaching blatant anti-LDS doctrine (whether it's true or not in reality, doesn't matter for what I'm asking here) - I would not for one second give a crap what the church did order said about me or those like me! So that's the part I don't understand - why you and others here care anymore? (said sincerely)

It matters because people who truly are good people, seeking the Lord, are being excommunicated simply because they disagree with policies and such. I have a problem with that personally. I've probably spoken much more harshly than I should, and I'm sorry for that. This is however a little bit of a sensitive issue for me because I've seen so many of my friends and now my family being cast out of the church when they are righteous people and have done nothing more than have their own individual opinion on whatever it was the bishop felt differently about.

In my family, you are allowed to disagree with each other. You are allowed to have your own opinions and beliefs. I don't even belong to the same church as my oldest son. That's okay! We love each other, and support each other, and learn from each other. I'd like to see the same principles applied globally in the church as we all seek the Lord together!

I don't care if the guy next to me in sacrament thinks we should be polygamists, or socialists, or wear garments to our ankles, or put our hands on women's heads and support their connection with God we call priesthood, or whatever else they want to believe. That's their business. If they want to talk about it on their own blog or forums or Facebook, I don't care about that either. They have a right to assert their opinion. I don't understand why we are so terrified of hearing another man's opinion when it differs from ours. I can choose to disagree and still worship next to that man on the bench who passes me the bread. I feel no need to cast that man out of the church I'm sitting in. I feel no need to tell that man he's unworthy of God because his opinion differs from my opinion which could be wrong too - when that dude probably just wants to take the sacrament and go home and play with his kids and spend time with his family like everyone else. How is that man a sinner?

I live in president Monson's ward. The bishop has literally stood from the pulpit and demanded that if your political thinking does not match president Monson's, then you need to change your politics. So is the bishop implying that there will be consequences if the wardmember's politics do not match the church president's? I just don't see the Savior in this type of fear and punishment based management.

I think we can all learn a lot from that Baptist preacher who is using the Book of Mormon to teach his congregation.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

perhaps because restored gospel is true, and yet church authorites/members could be wrong....so, gospel and church arent the same....
:-B

Exactly. So then why are people being exed for disagreeing with those imperfect church authorities and members? ;)

[jbalm]

Okay, thank you. I get all that and understand what you're saying about the perceived power and what most active members tend to believe, etc.... But what I still don't understand is why any of this matters to people who have left the church - especially ones who have left because of doctrinal issues (as opposed to some other reasons). I'm not saying that in a snotty way - I genuinely don't get it. For example, if I left the church because I no longer believed Christ was at its head, or was excommunicated because I was publicly preaching blatant anti-LDS doctrine (whether it's true or not in reality, doesn't matter for what I'm asking here) - I would not for one second give a crap what the church did or said about me or those like me! So that's the part I don't understand - why you and others here care anymore? (said sincerely)

There is a stigma attached to excommunication. This is significant if your family or employer is LDS.

[shadow]

"I frequently rebuke and admonish my brethren, and that because I love them, not because I wish to incur their displeasure, or mar their happiness. Such a course of conduct is not calculated to gain the good will of all, but rather the ill will of many; therefore, the situation in which I stand is an important one; so, you see, brethren, the higher the authority, the greater the difficulty of the station; but these rebukes and admonitions become necessary, from the perverseness of the brethren, for their temporal as well as spiritual welfare. They actually constitute a part of the duties of my station and calling" -Joseph Smith the Prophet

[kgrigio]

It matters because people who truly are good people, seeking the Lord, are being excommunicated simply because they disagree with policies and such.

I'm sorry, I have to call bullcrap on this. You keep spewing this line and you are bald face lying. People ARE NOT being excommunicated for disagreeing and having doubts! John was excommunicated for actively teaching against the church, the doctrines of the church, and promoting his ideals of what the church should and shouldn't do. He wasn't some quite, soul searching, humble person sincerely seeking the truth that was trying to square his beliefs with the teachings of the church. He wasn't someone who asked sincere questions of his Bishop, home teachers, ward members, etc...

You are doing a true disservice to those that are sincerely seeking answers and struggling with squaring their beliefs who don't proclaim to the world how wrong the church is and how the church must conform to their own beliefs and then attempts to get followers and say "see, see, others think the same way I do, so there, change with the times"

I likely will get some PM on this warning me, or the post will be deleted, but damn I am tired of this argument because it is absolutely false.

[Nan]

Jules you are not honest. He isn't being excommunicated for having questions. He is being excommunicated for his actions. Why is it if you don 't believe you can't just walk away and go live your life doing something that would actually lift others. All you do is criticize everyone that disagrees with you. And you are quite the bully about how you do it. Frankly it is very funny that you criticize everyone else for judging and yet that is what you do to all the leaders of the lds church and faithful members of that church. And you are really unkind about it. Quite frankly I have no idea why this board has allowed you to behave towards others the way you do.

[shadow]

To Jared Carter, who taught contrary to the church, Joseph Smith said to him-
"In your letter you say many hard things against the brethren, especially against Father Joseph Smith, Brother Reynolds Cahoon, and Bishop Whitney, all of which we highly disapprove. It seems also that your son Eden is confederate with you, and needs to be reproved, together with yourself, in all humility before the Lord, or you must expect to be dealt with according to the laws of the Church. We say you are no more than a private member in the Church.[2]:1:370

if the church today did this (and they do, as seen with Dehlin, Kelly and Snuffer) Jules would claim they were power hungry unrighteous dominators (as seen in her posts above). This proves a point- those who kick against the church today would also kick against Joseph Smith. This is clear as day. What jules has been posting above is in direct opposition to what Joseph Smith taught. Heck, a good chunk of the apostles that served with Joseph were exed for "silly" things like teaching contrary to the church. What happens today is nothing new.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

It matters because people who truly are good people, seeking the Lord, are being excommunicated simply because they disagree with policies and such.

I'm sorry, I have to call bullcrap on this. You keep spewing this line and you are bald face lying. People ARE NOT being excommunicated for disagreeing and having doubts! John was excommunicated for actively teaching against the church, the doctrines of the church, and promoting his ideals of what the church should and shouldn't do. He wasn't some quite, soul searching, humble person sincerely seeking the truth that was trying to square his beliefs with the teachings of the church. He wasn't someone who asked sincere questions of his Bishop, home teachers, ward members, etc...

You are doing a true disservice to those that are sincerely seeking answers and struggling with squaring their beliefs who don't proclaim to the world how wrong the church is and how the church must conform to their own beliefs and then attempts to get followers and say "see, see, others think the same way I do, so there, change with the times"

I likely will get some PM on this warning me, or the post will be deleted, but damn I am tired of this argument because it is absolutely false.

Ok, call me a liar. I'm sure a whole thread full of very specific examples of people I personally know wouldn't make a difference to you.

I'm not sure how I'm doing fellow seekers a disservice, when that's exactly what I'm encouraging - the freedom to seek answers safely, and the freedom too disagree safely. But I'm sorry you are being offended by my opinion.

I hope we learn to be more Christ like and loving toward people who see differently than we do. The Savior is the prototype of the saved man, but we are not behaving like he did.

Except I just found out that my sister believes utterly the opposite way I do, about vaccinating children. She's even posting about it in Facebook! She's out of the damn family, lol.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Jules you are not honest. He isn't being excommunicated for having questions. He is being excommunicated for his actions. Why is it if you don 't believe you can't just walk away and go live your life doing something that would actually lift others. All you do is criticize everyone that disagrees with you. And you are quite the bully about how you do it. Frankly it is very funny that you criticize everyone else for judging and yet that is what you do to all the leaders of the lds church and faithful members of that church. And you are really unkind about it. Quite frankly I have no idea why this board has allowed you to behave towards others the way you do.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate my point Nan with an example of the way people are treated when you disagree with the church. No, I'm not a liar, I've asserted my opinion.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

To Jared Carter, who taught contrary to the church, Joseph Smith said to him-
"In your letter you say many hard things against the brethren, especially against Father Joseph Smith, Brother Reynolds Cahoon, and Bishop Whitney, all of which we highly disapprove. It seems also that your son Eden is confederate with you, and needs to be reproved, together with yourself, in all humility before the Lord, or you must expect to be dealt with according to the laws of the Church. We say you are no more than a private member in the Church.[2]:1:370

if the church today did this (and they do, as seen with Dehlin, Kelly and Snuffer) Jules would claim they were power hungry unrighteous dominators (as seen in her posts above). This proves a point- those who kick against the church today would also kick against Joseph Smith. This is clear as day. What jules has been posting above is in direct opposition to what Joseph Smith taught. Heck, a good chunk of the apostles that served with Joseph were exed for "silly" things like teaching contrary to the church. What happens today is nothing new.

Wow shadow, you must really be shadowing me to know my mind that intimately but you do know exactly what I would say in any of those circumstances! :))

[jwharton]

Jules you are not honest. He isn't being excommunicated for having questions. He is being excommunicated for his actions. Why is it if you don 't believe you can't just walk away and go live your life doing something that would actually lift others. All you do is criticize everyone that disagrees with you. And you are quite the bully about how you do it. Frankly it is very funny that you criticize everyone else for judging and yet that is what you do to all the leaders of the lds church and faithful members of that church. And you are really unkind about it. Quite frankly I have no idea why this board has allowed you to behave towards others the way you do.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate my point Nan with an example of the way people are treated when you disagree with the church. No, I'm not a liar, I've asserted my opinion.

If you are saying he is being excommunicated solely for having a difference of opinion then you really ought to make sure you aren't misunderstanding the reality of the situation. I agree it felt a bit harsh to accuse you of being dishonest, but I think you are going out on a limb for someone based on a filtered view of the facts. If you persist to do so and do not take other factual matters into consideration, the real reason he is being disciplined, then I would agree you are edging your way into the realm of dishonesty.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Jules you are not honest. He isn't being excommunicated for having questions. He is being excommunicated for his actions. Why is it if you don 't believe you can't just walk away and go live your life doing something that would actually lift others. All you do is criticize everyone that disagrees with you. And you are quite the bully about how you do it. Frankly it is very funny that you criticize everyone else for judging and yet that is what you do to all the leaders of the lds church and faithful members of that church. And you are really unkind about it. Quite frankly I have no idea why this board has allowed you to behave towards others the way you do.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate my point Nan with an example of the way people are treated when you disagree with the church. No, I'm not a liar, I've asserted my opinion.

If you are saying he is being excommunicated solely for having a difference of opinion then you really ought to make sure you aren't misunderstanding the reality of the situation. I agree it felt a bit harsh to accuse you of being dishonest, but I think you are going out on a limb for someone based on a filtered view of the facts. If you persist to do so and do not take other factual matters into consideration, the real reason he is being disciplined, then I would agree you are edging your way into the realm of dishonesty.

Well I'm not sure I care enough to try and continue explaining my point to a bunch of people calling me a liar among other things. I disagree. There you go. If someone actually cares, PM me and I'll be glad to discuss my understanding with you at length. (Please let there be crickets....)

Now I have a kid to hang out with before bedtime. Carry on!

[Epistemology]

Jules you are not honest. He isn't being excommunicated for having questions. He is being excommunicated for his actions. Why is it if you don 't believe you can't just walk away and go live your life doing something that would actually lift others. All you do is criticize everyone that disagrees with you. And you are quite the bully about how you do it. Frankly it is very funny that you criticize everyone else for judging and yet that is what you do to all the leaders of the lds church and faithful members of that church. And you are really unkind about it. Quite frankly I have no idea why this board has allowed you to behave towards others the way you do.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate my point Nan with an example of the way people are treated when you disagree with the church. No, I'm not a liar, I've asserted my opinion.

I think Nan is referring to intellectual dishonesty when saying "jules you are not honest"

Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion.

I don't think you were being called a liar in this post.

And I do think Nan was just offering an opinion just like you claim you were doing so I don't see how you were being treated in some bad negative way cuz you disagree with the church.

that's my opinion at least

[sushi_chef]

ummmm....idealy speaking, then perhaps, resurrected joseph is needed to see what he actually might say about those....why?! because seems current authorities are in secrecy, shielded, are sitting on the laurel....they willingly or individually dont come to the dialogue table with general members questions such as this forum for instance....so what are the answers they gave for those questions whatsoever, for instance: is that true they are paid one million in to the member of the quorum of 12??
:-B

[ajax]

"I frequently rebuke and admonish my brethren, and that because I love them, not because I wish to incur their displeasure, or mar their happiness. Such a course of conduct is not calculated to gain the good will of all, but rather the ill will of many; therefore, the situation in which I stand is an important one; so, you see, brethren, the higher the authority, the greater the difficulty of the station; but these rebukes and admonitions become necessary, from the perverseness of the brethren, for their temporal as well as spiritual welfare. They actually constitute a part of the duties of my station and calling" -Joseph Smith the Prophet

To Jared Carter, who taught contrary to the church, Joseph Smith said to him-
"In your letter you say many hard things against the brethren, especially against Father Joseph Smith, Brother Reynolds Cahoon, and Bishop Whitney, all of which we highly disapprove. It seems also that your son Eden is confederate with you, and needs to be reproved, together with yourself, in all humility before the Lord, or you must expect to be dealt with according to the laws of the Church. We say you are no more than a private member in the Church.[2]:1:370

if the church today did this (and they do, as seen with Dehlin, Kelly and Snuffer) Jules would claim they were power hungry unrighteous dominators (as seen in her posts above). This proves a point- those who kick against the church today would also kick against Joseph Smith. This is clear as day. What jules has been posting above is in direct opposition to what Joseph Smith taught. Heck, a good chunk of the apostles that served with Joseph were exed for "silly" things like teaching contrary to the church. What happens today is nothing new.

Just proves Joseph was also fallible.

[Kitkat]

Okay, thank you. I get all that and understand what you're saying about the perceived power and what most active members tend to believe, etc.... But what I still don't understand is why any of this matters to people who have left the church - especially ones who have left because of doctrinal issues (as opposed to some other reasons). I'm not saying that in a snotty way - I genuinely don't get it. For example, if I left the church because I no longer believed Christ was at its head, or was excommunicated because I was publicly preaching blatant anti-LDS doctrine (whether it's true or not in reality, doesn't matter for what I'm asking here) - I would not for one second give a crap what the church did or said about me or those like me! So that's the part I don't understand - why you and others here care anymore? (said sincerely)

I think part of the big deal is that the church functions as more than just a religious organization, it is a culture that is all encompassing, it is intertwined in families, relationships, levels of trust you are given amoung family and friends. So when the church casts you out they often separate you from family and friends.

[pjbrownie]

Okay, thank you. I get all that and understand what you're saying about the perceived power and what most active members tend to believe, etc.... But what I still don't understand is why any of this matters to people who have left the church - especially ones who have left because of doctrinal issues (as opposed to some other reasons). I'm not saying that in a snotty way - I genuinely don't get it. For example, if I left the church because I no longer believed Christ was at its head, or was excommunicated because I was publicly preaching blatant anti-LDS doctrine (whether it's true or not in reality, doesn't matter for what I'm asking here) - I would not for one second give a crap what the church did or said about me or those like me! So that's the part I don't understand - why you and others here care anymore? (said sincerely)

Tabula, I follow John Dehlin and have been acquainted with him. He would say that Mormonism is his tribe. He love the people, the story, some of the culture, the goodness . . . of Mormonism. Aside from the fact the he bows at the science and progressive altar over everything else, he really is a good person. That's why he wants to stay. It's like a agnostic Jew. We accept that term because Judaism is an ethnic trait, not just a religion. John feels the same about Mormonism.

Now I don't get that. I think if you don't believe in the big three tenents 1) Book of Mormon 2) Joseph Smith, or 3) at least the idea of continuing revelation, why would you want to be a Latter-day Saint?

But he does.

I like to take the scriptures at their word. The Doctrine of Christ is to cast those out who won't repent. Well, what is repentance? It is turning your life over to Christ, following His word. That's the pure intent. It's not disagreeing with the Brethren, smoking, unchaste behavior, etc. It's not what you're doing now! It's the unwillingness to turn. I think the scriptures are very clear about what that returning to is referencing. It's referencing returning to Christ, by believing in him and doing his works. Any more or less than that is adding to or detracting from the doctrine of Christ. In many ways, John was doing the works of Christ, by reaching out in love and ministering to those sinners that feel cast off. His problem is that he is too accepting of the sin. A good shepherd may be completely within his right to cast John out if he is denying the Christ (which I'm not sure he was or wasn't).

I'm torn on this movement by the Church, because I think John is sincere in his motives. On the other hand, the airing of grievances was all too often amplifying the deception. People who followed John just weren't denying the Church (a forgivable heresy in my mind) they were denying the Christ. He was deceived, and I think we draw too stark of a line between a straying sheep and a wolf. Hint, less wolves, more sheep. Furthermore, by going after the lost sheep, does it not create greater bonds of trust between the sheep and shepherd, versus trying to demask a wandering sheep as a wolf? How does that create trust? Now the sheep only fear the shepherd. If they feel greener pastures call, they are more likely to bolt!

I see no Korihors here. I only see tragedy.

[shadow]

How ironic that on a forum that discusses freedom of choice in politics and food and medical treatment and how we raise our kids and all these freedoms we fight for, we don't believe the same way in our own church. Those freedoms should be global - at least according to the Savior, as well as the guy who founded the church. But what do I know, I'm a free-thinking heretic myself.

Oh Jules, you're overly dramatic.
Aren't you the one who would always say "This is Brian's house. These our his rules. If you can't abide them then you can't stay in his house."? Yeah, even on this so called "freedom" forum.
I was banned from this site for over a year. Excommunicated. You claiming irony is ironic.

The church has rules. One of them is to not publicly teach contrary to it. Dehlin did this. He was warned. He continued. This isn't rocket science nor is it anything new. Christ set up His church with Prophets and Apostles and so on. They serve a role. They have stewardships to protect the saints. Christ set it up that way. Joseph Smith exed people for the same crap Dehlin did, the same crap Snuffer did. This is nothing new nor is it unrighteous dominion.

[Obrien]

Jules, I know you can handle the heat of the haters. FWIW, I love you, as a sister and a friend. Thanks for teaching me all you have over the last year.