John Dehlin Facing Excommuncation

[Dannyk]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/us/jo ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Mormon Church has moved to excommunicate the prominent Utah-based founder of an online forum for critical or doubting Mormons, charging him with apostasy for supporting same-sex marriage and the ordination of women and for questioning church teaching.

John P. Dehlin, host of the Mormon Stories website and podcast —a hub of discussion for thousands of disaffected Mormons — said his regional church leader had scheduled a disciplinary hearing on Jan. 25. Mr. Dehlin said he would be excommunicated if he refused to take down podcasts that are critical of the church and to disavow his support for women’s ordination and gay marriage.

“I would prefer for them to leave me alone,” he said in an interview, “but if given the choice between denying my conscience and facing excommunication, I’d much rather be excommunicated.”

Kate Kelly, a human rights lawyer who founded the Ordain Women movement in the church, was excommunicated last June, and Mr. Dehlin was warned then of the charges against him. But after the excommunication of Ms. Kelly created an uproar, the Mormon church, formally known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, held off on excommunicating Mr. Dehlin while simultaneously disciplining dozens of others who had publicly questioned their faith.

[Fiannan]

Okay, let me get this straight, already he just boosted his exposure, and potential audience, into the stratosphere. If he is excommunicated he will he stop his show? I doubt it. Had he been left alone would that have really caused a huge problem?

Does anyone have any figures on his audience per show?

[Col. Flagg]

He has a big following in terms of church members who listen to his podcasts. I've heard a few of them, but was really never 'won over' or anything of the sort. I think he just wants the truth about things and for the church to be true and righteous in all it does, but he also treads into subjects and issues that are controversial, to say the least. We all know gay marriage is not of God and contradicts the plan of salvation for the family unit and that women already enjoy the blessings of the Pristeshood through their husbands and are not to 'hold' it as men do. It is unfortunate, with all of the genuine truth-seeking he does, that he's going to lose his membership over supporting gay marriage and ordaining women to the Priesthood. And all he had to do was stop publicly supporting them, but has refused to do so (much like Snuffer, who was asked to stop making statements and presenting controversial teachings who refused and was also ex'd). It's not like the church is out to get these guys... they are given many chances to stop what they are doing before being ex'd and they are not complying. Sad.

[braingrunt]

To be honest, the church SHOULD be more concerned about correctness than consequences; If excommunicating him is the right thing, they should do it, without regard for the press this will give him.

IMO those with longstanding counter-ministries such as JD, KK, really should not retain membership. It really boils down to, a house divided against itself cannot stand; and assuming the correctness of the church, it is very right for it to say, "this counter-ministry must be separated from the house." IF the church's own actions eventually tear the church into 100 pieces, and lose bucketloads of tithing money, it will still be worth it IF it preserves a smaller house which is unified on the major correct principles.

I would never propose requiring perfection or unshakableness from people (I can't manage such things myself), but persistent counter-ministries are pretty clear cut to me, and after continuing in spite of loving counsel and guidance, should be removed.

[notjamesbond003.5]

I like the guy, but not everything he does.

He doesn't have a testimony of the authenticity of the B of M.


I do like what he brings to the table, interviewing some good people, however when you jump in bed with those who undermine the authenticity of the Restoration, there are consequences.

njb

[Phoenixstar117]

I like the guy, but not everything he does.

He doesn't have a testimony of the authenticity of the B of M.


I do like what he brings to the table, interviewing some good people, however when you jump in bed with those who undermine the authenticity of the Restoration, there are consequences.

njb

I would more or less say I feel the same about him. The authenticity of the BoM is the only thing that kept my faith when I passed through challenging times. Rod of Iron indeed. It was my testimony of that book that kept me in church, regardless of how I feel about "The Church(TM)". And also faced with the challenges to the authenticity of Joseph Smith(Kinderhook, Polygamy, etc.). The BoM is a good fruit which is sweet to me.

[notjamesbond003.5]

I like the guy, but not everything he does.

He doesn't have a testimony of the authenticity of the B of M.


I do like what he brings to the table, interviewing some good people, however when you jump in bed with those who undermine the authenticity of the Restoration, there are consequences.

njb

I would more or less say I feel the same about him. The authenticity of the BoM is the only thing that kept my faith when I passed through challenging times. Rod of Iron indeed. It was my testimony of that book that kept me in church, regardless of how I feel about "The Church(TM)". And also faced with the challenges to the authenticity of Joseph Smith(Kinderhook, Polygamy, etc.). The BoM is a good fruit which is sweet to me.

We're twins.



njb

[Dannyk]

Okay, let me get this straight, already he just boosted his exposure, and potential audience, into the stratosphere. If he is excommunicated he will he stop his show? I doubt it. Had he been left alone would that have really caused a huge problem?

Does anyone have any figures on his audience per show?

My wife and I were interviewed by him last year, not because we are experts on some rare topic of Mormon doctrine, but because of our experience with divorce and infertility. If I remember correctly, he said each podcast averages 50,000 downloads.

We met with him a few days before our interview for a long lunch because of a mutual friend. He struck me as honestly and sincerely trying to help members of the faith who feel blindsided by church history or current church practices. Whatever disagreements you or I might have with his doctrinal positions on key areas of Mormon faith...he believes and tries to practice the two great commandments. Whatever doubts he has or disagreements, for him it all comes back to love. And it felt like he really meant it, no hypocrisy. I really admire that.

Some may view it as misguided, but that love and compassion for other people has led him to focus on people within the church who are often outcasts. The focus on love has led him to fellowship with and advocate for LGBT members of the church, hoping to reduce the number of suicides and people being ostracized from family and church. He may indeed be wrong about that issue from a doctrinal position, but his actual practice has led to the helping and healing of many people.

I didn't mean to come here to defend him, nor this particular issue. But as I was writing that above paragraph, I can't help but wonder how often Christ was in a similar position. To those observing, he seemed to be in the wrong doctrinally, but clearly sided with compassion and love and the healing of wounded and rejected souls. Whether it was working/healing/picking corn on the Sabbath, his views on a woman caught in adultery, or any number of other things the Pharisees took issue with, Christ always sided with compassion as the driving force behind his personal contact with people. Truly, it is the greatest commandment.

Perhaps that is one way to look at his advocacy. Even if he proves to be doctrinally incorrect and misguided, his efforts just might be the source of great healing in the lives of deeply wounded and rejected and misunderstood souls. Sometimes I have to wonder just how mysterious the ways of God might be, and how unlike the ways of man or how we'd expect mercy and compassion to be delivered.

Perhaps he's not quite the enemy he at times get's labeled as.

[Robin Hood]

Serves him right.

[Dannyk]

Before we cast stones, can anyone here say that the work they've done has helped save someone's life, and reconciled them back to God?

In just an hour or two of comments on a facebook post, multiple LGBT individuals have said his work influenced them not to take their life, and some are even practicing mormons, and if not practicing Mormons, have still found connection to God.

[TannerG]

I like the guy, but not everything he does.

He doesn't have a testimony of the authenticity of the B of M.


I do like what he brings to the table, interviewing some good people, however when you jump in bed with those who undermine the authenticity of the Restoration, there are consequences.

njb

Neither do I. Maybe that's why John helped me so much during my faith crisis. I saw that there were other people trying to find answers as well, even if the answers were uncomfortable. Through his program, I found a lot of good answers.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Serves him right.

Wow. So much for the pure love of Christ.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Before we cast stones, can anyone here say that the work they've done has helped save someone's life, and reconciled them back to God?

In just an hour or two of comments on a facebook post, multiple LGBT individuals have said his work influenced them not to take their life, and some are even practicing mormons, and if not practicing Mormons, have still found connection to God.

:ymapplause:

[FoxMammaWisdom]

“but if given the choice between denying my conscience and facing excommunication, I’d much rather be excommunicated.”

I fully respect and appreciate this. Nobody should ever be forced by threat of eternal death (as if a church has the power impose that), to deny what they have been given by the Holy Ghost.

I haven't come to the same conclusions John has in everything, but he seems to truly be seeking the Lord, and most who criticize him, I fear, are not seeking at all costs and willing to sacrifice - as he clearly is.

"Let him who is without sin...."

[notjamesbond003.5]

I like the guy, but not everything he does.

He doesn't have a testimony of the authenticity of the B of M.


I do like what he brings to the table, interviewing some good people, however when you jump in bed with those who undermine the authenticity of the Restoration, there are consequences.

njb

Neither do I. Maybe that's why John helped me so much during my faith crisis. I saw that there were other people trying to find answers as well, even if the answers were uncomfortable. Through his program, I found a lot of good answers.

So Tanner the man with no testimony of the Book of Mormon persuaded you into believing it's is indeed true ?

Doesn't compute.
Please explain.

Njb

[Thomas]

Of course, the logical thing to do with those who have doubts is to send them to hell.

[ithink]

Before we cast stones, can anyone here say that the work they've done has helped save someone's life, and reconciled them back to God?

In just an hour or two of comments on a facebook post, multiple LGBT individuals have said his work influenced them not to take their life, and some are even practicing mormons, and if not practicing Mormons, have still found connection to God.

Unfortunately Dannyk, the church is not concerned about the member, it is only concerned with itself -- The Church. It can and will show no mercy and no compassion no matter how high the body count gets.

[Bee Prepared]

Before we cast stones, can anyone here say that the work they've done has helped save someone's life, and reconciled them back to God?

In just an hour or two of comments on a facebook post, multiple LGBT individuals have said his work influenced them not to take their life, and some are even practicing mormons, and if not practicing Mormons, have still found connection to God.

Unfortunately Dannyk, the church is not concerned about the member, it is only concerned with itself -- The Church. It can and will show no mercy and no compassion no matter how high the body count gets.

That is not true. What did Dehlin think would happen? I agree that someone who advocates support of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual community not to mention his support of Kelly's group, Ordain Women is off the Reservation.That group is pushing for gender equality with the goal of women being allowed into the faith's lay clergy. He just needs to find a church that goes with his beliefs. What is the big deal?

He's going downtown and rightfully so.

[shadow]

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[FoxMammaWisdom]

Before we cast stones, can anyone here say that the work they've done has helped save someone's life, and reconciled them back to God?

In just an hour or two of comments on a facebook post, multiple LGBT individuals have said his work influenced them not to take their life, and some are even practicing mormons, and if not practicing Mormons, have still found connection to God.

Unfortunately Dannyk, the church is not concerned about the member, it is only concerned with itself -- The Church. It can and will show no mercy and no compassion no matter how high the body count gets.

I don't understand how it's merciless to ex someone who is publicly and deliberately promoting ideas and organizations that are contrary to the church he is member of. They are exing him not damning him to hell for hecks sake.

If John has gone through the temple, when he is exed, the church believes that he is stripped of any and all blessings he obtained by being a member. IOW, if you were baptised, the church believes you are now UN-baptized. If you were sealed to your spouse, the church believes you are UN-sealed. If you went through the endowment ceremony, the church believes you are UN-endowed with the ability to go to the Celestial Kingdom. The church believes you cannot get to the CK any other way than through them, so if you are removed from the church, you are in essence being damned to hell by the church.

[Lizzy60]

I agree with Jules. Also, not only does the church essentially damn you to hell, other members either treat you with disdain, or if you're lucky, they try to rescue you. My brother, who left the church, has experienced this, as have others I have known. You're ignored, feared, or pitied. Hell on earth, for some.

Not very Christ-like, in my opinion.

[Thomas]

It is spiritual death according to the church. Worse than physical death.

[Nan]

Damning to hell would be outer darkness. That isn't what we believe happens when you are excommunicated. Frankly if you aren't living your covenants. You are making your covenants null and void. Same with excommunication. In fact it actually releases you from being responsible for living them.

[Obrien]

you're never released from doing what you know you're supposed to do, membership or no membership.

[Bee Prepared]

There are some members who persistently and publicly criticize Church leaders.

As members express their own thoughts and feelings, they should not give the impression that they represent or are sponsored by the church. cultural biases. They argue, that the scriptures require new interpretation and that they are uniquely qualified to offer that interpretation.

From Ezra Taft Benson;

" Pride is a sin that can readily be seen in others but is rarely admitted in ourselves. … The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives. (See Hel. 12:6.) They pit their perceptions of truth against God’s great knowledge, their abilities versus God’s priesthood power, their accomplishments against His mighty works. Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. … The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s. … Disobedience is essentially a prideful power struggle against someone in authority over us. It can be a parent, a priesthood leader, a teacher, or ultimately God. A proud person hates the fact that someone is above him. He thinks this lowers his position. … The proud do not receive counsel or correction easily. Defensiveness is used by them to justify and rationalize their frailties and failures.