LDS Freedom Forum

jbalm wrote:So the earth is 6000 years old, and everyone alive today descended from the eight survivors of a flood that happened around 4000 years ago?

Believe what you want. But you should be cautious with accusations of "blind faith."

Wait you belive the earth is only 6000 year old?

No. OT literalists (as well as D&C literalists) do.

Muerte Rosa wrote:From the dust. That's what it says. In the scriptures there is absolutely zero verbiage to insinuate anything even close to evolution.
It talks about how he (Adam) gave Eve a name. And that he was man and she was woman. If that's the case and if we hypothetically came from apes ....at what point in the evolution process does God say...." ok right now starting with these two are these two going to be man and woman."
Also there is the part where it says we are made in His likeness. Not that other creatures were...but US. We were created by God in HIS likeness. That would mean not a monkey. Unless God is a monkey.

And comparing a human to a virus doesn't really make sense...at least in most cases. Virus's are much less complex than a human, with far less elements....that for it to mutate wouldn't take anywhere near as much time.

Jbalm....just no. =;

The scriptures also say that there is a big dome over the earth that holds back the waters of the universe.

Where did that thingy go?

Where did the dome go?

Google "firmament."

Whose then? They are all pretty much the same.

jbalm wrote:No. OT literalists (as well as D&C literalists) do.

so what animal did you evolve from that has for some reason not evolved itself?

Since we are Gods children and he is our Father we know nothing about our creation unless we understand his creation. We are the same species.

Where did God come from? That is the question. Creationism answers nothing.

Ezra wrote:

jbalm wrote:No. OT literalists (as well as D&C literalists) do.

so what animal did you evolve from that has for some reason not evolved itself?

Maybe it was bigfoot.

Read a book, dude. You can argue about it all day long. It won't change reality.

But if you are happy in your fairy tale world, who am I to drag you kicking and screaming into the real one?

Just sit there secure in the knowledge that you know more than the worldly, lying, conspiring scientists as you sit there posting on the internet that they created, which enables people around the world to read your silliness the instant you puke it out.

Damn scientists. They don't know crap.

Mind you don't bang your head on the firmament as you get translated out of here.

Muerte Rosa wrote:If we are created in his image then he looks like us. And we look like him. Jesus looked like us and him.

What was He wearing last time you saw Him?

Thomas wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:I think some of the details of that kind of stuff are merely speculation. Like the flood.
I believe people evolve but not from amebas and monkeys. In genesis the story of Adam and Eve is worded very clearly. That they were in fact created by the hands of the Lord. I can't think of any other way of interpreting that that would fit in with evolution.
I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything but that not all science we have on the earth right now is complete or even correct. YET.

Yet we don't know how he did it. Could evolution been how are our bodies were made? You can't rule it out. It sure is hard to explain all the half man half ape creature remains found.

Evolution of life is fact. We see it happen in a short period of time with viruses and microbes. Just be cause we don't live long enough to observe mullti generational changes in humans doesn't mean they don't take place.

The fact remains that God had to have come from somewhere. Explain how than you have something.

Wow Thomas...this frankly does surprise me. I would never have guessed you as a supporter of the evolutionary theory. I would have thought that that the issue with multiplying with their own kind and simply the scriptural record would have generated a more creationalist bias. Very surprising indeed.

For my two bits, just so you know where I am coming from, I do not believe evolution was the source of mankind, nor do I believe in death before Adam. I have always found the improbability of sufficient genetic changes necessary to define a new species as most improbable but when it comes to sexual reproduction it requires both male and female. In such a case the exact changes had to occur not once once but twice in a boy and a girl of a species in precise timing and location so that they could get together and reproduce. Utterly impossible for the number of times required to justify all living and extinct species known. There are other issues but this one is sufficient for me. Mankind did not evolve from a lower life form and while I may not understand the how and why I stay with the scriptural implications.

jbalm wrote:

Ezra wrote:

jbalm wrote:No. OT literalists (as well as D&C literalists) do.

so what animal did you evolve from that has for some reason not evolved itself?

Maybe it was bigfoot.

Read a book, dude. You can argue about it all day long. It won't change reality.

But if you are happy in your fairy tale world, who am I to drag you kicking and screaming into the real one?

Just sit there secure in the knowledge that you know more than the worldly, lying, conspiring scientists as you sit there posting on the internet that they created, which enables people around the world to read your silliness the instant you puke it out.

Damn scientists. They don't know crap.

Mind you don't bang your head on the firmament as you get translated out of here.

Do you ever wonder jbalm, what these verses in scripture could imply:

Isaiah 29:14

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

1 Corinthians 1:19

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

This theme pops often enough I consider it very probable that it is referring to those whom the world considers wise. Be it doctors, or lawyers, or scientists etc. it refers to those people that mankind has elevated to positions of wisdom in the eyes of mankind but that God will reveal in the end times as certainly not wise in the things of God...including creation, laws of physics etc.

Another scripture that has meaning for me is D & C 93 which describes the conditions of truth - Things as they WERE, things as they ARE, and Things as they WILL BE. Just as I think that most of Gods children are wrong for even judging themselves, as we only know who we are in the present, lacking knowledge of who we were in the preexistence and our future state of will be means we cannot make informed judgments such as God can without his insight; so it is with science. We can only know the laws of physics that apply to a world in a fallen state. Although in must be clear that an entirely different set of laws were operating prior to the fall. Thus while there are remnants of that earlier state from an entirely different eternal sphere of existance, it might be imprudent to evaluate them from the rules of this currect temporal state of the earth's sphere.

All truth being independent in the sphere (D & C 93) in which it is placed could imply that the eternal sphere of the earth would have an entirely different range of true principles that differ greatly from the present sphere of existence and will be different again when this sphere transitions to a terrestrial then celestial state. Just saying there are compelling reasons to leave the jury out on this matter. Science cannot be right in my mind with only 1/3 of the equation within their grasp, independent from the revelations of God which tehy tend to ignore.

What makes you think I support evolution? I don't believe in the Coke and Pepsi theory. Neither one of them are the true drink.

Think outside the box someone put you in. You know nothing about how we were created and unless the question of how God was created is answered, there is no answer.

BTW, David O McKay thought evolution might be how mankinds bodies were created. Just be cause Bruce R McKonkie didn't believe in death before Adam doesn't mean everyone agreed with him. The story of Adam and Eve is allegory. Our existence pre dates this Earth by eons. The earth had a beginning. We do not.

We are the same species as God. Don't let anyone make you believe it is a debate between evolution and what is generally known as creationism. The answer is not found in that box and Gods plans for our evolution are much grander and greater than you can imagine.

Muerte Rosa wrote:Now you've gone and crossed the line Thomas. Pepsi IS the true drink and is what will be drank in the celestial kingdom.

But Ajax says it will be beer.

Thomas wrote:What makes you think I support evolution? I don't believe in the Coke and Pepsi theory. Neither one of them are the true drink.

Think outside the box someone put you in. You know nothing about how we were created and unless the question of how God was created is answered, there is no answer.

BTW, David O McKay thought evolution might be how mankinds bodies were created. Just be cause Bruce R McKonkie didn't believe in death before Adam doesn't mean everyone agreed with him. The story of Adam and Eve is allegory. Our existence pre dates this Earth by eons. The earth had a beginning. We do not.

We are the same species as God. Don't let anyone make you believe it is a debate between evolution and what is generally known as creationism. The answer is not found in that box and Gods plans for our evolution are much grander and greater than you can imagine.

I was simply responding to this comment here:

Thomas wrote:Evolution of life is fact. We see it happen in a short period of time with viruses and microbes. Just be cause we don't live long enough to observe mullti generational changes in humans doesn't mean they don't take place.

The term evolution has very specific connotations which embrace cross species generation of new species. So I was simply responding to your statement that evolution is a FACT of life when a t best we should only claim it is a theory. But hey...I was simply expressing surprise - nothing more nothing less - nothing more or less please return to your previous activities i-)

Ezra wrote:

jbalm wrote:No. OT literalists (as well as D&C literalists) do.

so what animal did you evolve from that has for some reason not evolved itself?

Wait...I just realized this is the former polygamy thread. How in the world did we get from polygamy to evolution? I guess subconsciously we must all realize that polygamy is an evolved higher state of man’s existence. Wow how insightful.

Muerte Rosa wrote:Well everyone knows that Ajax is just a bag of hot gas.

Flatulent.

Thomas wrote: You know nothing about how we were created and unless the question of how God was created is answered, there is no answer.

By the way Thomas, you obviously having not been talking to Obrien - He can clue you in that I know everything. :-B

brlenox wrote:

Thomas wrote:What makes you think I support evolution? I don't believe in the Coke and Pepsi theory. Neither one of them are the true drink.

Think outside the box someone put you in. You know nothing about how we were created and unless the question of how God was created is answered, there is no answer.

BTW, David O McKay thought evolution might be how mankinds bodies were created. Just be cause Bruce R McKonkie didn't believe in death before Adam doesn't mean everyone agreed with him. The story of Adam and Eve is allegory. Our existence pre dates this Earth by eons. The earth had a beginning. We do not.

We are the same species as God. Don't let anyone make you believe it is a debate between evolution and what is generally known as creationism. The answer is not found in that box and Gods plans for our evolution are much grander and greater than you can imagine.

I was simply responding to this comment here:

Thomas wrote:Evolution of life is fact. We see it happen in a short period of time with viruses and microbes. Just be cause we don't live long enough to observe mullti generational changes in humans doesn't mean they don't take place.

The term evolution has very specific connotations which embrace cross species generation of new species. So I was simply responding to your statement that evolution is a FACT of life when a t best we should only claim it is a theory. But hey...I was simply expressing surprise - nothing more nothing less - nothing more or less please return to your previous activities i-)

Just to clarify, I believe life does evolve. As for the origins of mankind , I really dontt know, but mankind did not start on this planet or even this round of existence.

Thomas wrote:

brlenox wrote:

Thomas wrote:What makes you think I support evolution? I don't believe in the Coke and Pepsi theory. Neither one of them are the true drink.

Think outside the box someone put you in. You know nothing about how we were created and unless the question of how God was created is answered, there is no answer.

BTW, David O McKay thought evolution might be how mankinds bodies were created. Just be cause Bruce R McKonkie didn't believe in death before Adam doesn't mean everyone agreed with him. The story of Adam and Eve is allegory. Our existence pre dates this Earth by eons. The earth had a beginning. We do not.

We are the same species as God. Don't let anyone make you believe it is a debate between evolution and what is generally known as creationism. The answer is not found in that box and Gods plans for our evolution are much grander and greater than you can imagine.

I was simply responding to this comment here:

Thomas wrote:Evolution of life is fact. We see it happen in a short period of time with viruses and microbes. Just be cause we don't live long enough to observe mullti generational changes in humans doesn't mean they don't take place.

The term evolution has very specific connotations which embrace cross species generation of new species. So I was simply responding to your statement that evolution is a FACT of life when a t best we should only claim it is a theory. But hey...I was simply expressing surprise - nothing more nothing less - nothing more or less please return to your previous activities i-)

Just to clarify, I believe life does evolve. As for the origins of mankind , I really dontt know, but mankind did not start on this planet or even this round of existence.

I don't know what you mean when you say life evolved. It means something to me but that may be different from what it means to you. The only point that matters significantly as I understand it is do you believe in cross species generation of creatures. For instance could man have evolved from a primate, or a canary from a tyranosaurus rex? or a marsupial from an ajax?

Given enough time, yes.

Thomas wrote:Given enough time, yes.

Hmmm, most interesting.

brlenox wrote:

Thomas wrote:Given enough time, yes.

Hmmm, most interesting.

Where do you think God came from?

Thomas wrote:

brlenox wrote:

Thomas wrote:Given enough time, yes.

Hmmm, most interesting.

Where do you think God came from?

The concept of great first cause was the theory of Orson Pratt concerning the origins of the God of Gods. IT was one of the primary tenents of the book the Seer that Brigham Young took strong occasion against and resulted in his banning of the book. I have never liked the feel of great first cause theory. Thus I am left with I have no idea where God came from. Nor do I currently believe that man can even conceive of the principles of such an exclusively eternal prospect within the limitations of our finite paradigm.

Then mankind cannot conceive the origins of life. The debate over evolution vs creationism is meaningless.