Book of Mormon Heartland Model

[marc]

I am in frequent contact with the Church leaders.

They know but they don't tell anyone for fear of dividing up the Lamanite membership of the Church whether they be up in Canada and Alaska or down in Chile and Argentina.

You have got to be kidding. Fear? Fear is of the adversary. I don't care what model it is. And really, who cares? Sure, it's nice to know, but if fear is the motivation for anything the "church leaders" do, then I question their "leadership." Are you serious? Thomas S. Monson is afraid that the remnant is going to do anything but fulfill prophecy? This just doesn't make sense.

[samizdat]

There is too much division on this and other discussion boards about where the Book of Mormon took place.

That is why the Church says nothing about its location officially.

Part of this I would put on the overzealous missionary that tells the Lamanites of Chile or of Mexico or of Canada that the Book of Mormon happened there excluding other areas. It happened in my mission a lot (southern Mexico).

So in order to present the Church united the Church has no official position on where the Book of Mormon happened. And if one tries to identify a specific spot where specific events happened in the Book of Mormon claiming that it has Church backing they can be subject to a disciplinary council.

[marc]

The only division I have observed is among scholars and apologists. Sorry, brother, but the whole silence treatment from the "church" in my opinion is ridiculous. They either don't know or they are afraid, assuming you're telling the truth. I'm not sure which is worse, ignorance or fear. It's nonsense either way.

[JohnnyL]

The only division I have observed is among scholars and apologists. Sorry, brother, but the whole silence treatment from the "church" in my opinion is ridiculous. They either don't know or they are afraid, assuming you're telling the truth. I'm not sure which is worse, ignorance or fear. It's nonsense either way.

I don't believe so. But let's extend the scenario. Let's say the Church publicly comes out with "X is the location". What would happen?

[marc]

It won't change anything about the gospel. But if anything it will shut up one party and turn it into a gospel hobby for everyone else who is already engaged in it. Either way, Isaiah's prophecies concerning the remnant will not change. Everyone else will go back to their TV programs and daily routines.

[Alighieri]

It won't change anything about the gospel. But if anything it will shut up one party and turn it into a gospel hobby for everyone else who is already engaged in it. Either way, Isaiah's prophecies concerning the remnant will not change. Everyone else will go back to their TV programs and daily routines.

Will you get me a television? J/k.

What of the prophecy of Micah reemphasized by the Savior in America? I understand this spiritually and I may be mistaken temporally, what have you garnered from the Spirit during your studies, if you feel it is appropriate to share?

And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

[marc]

Just getting on here quickly before work. I agree with the one you posted, which I believe will occur during or after the gentiles are scourged. Concerning the "remnant" mentioned in the Book of Mormon, here are a few passages. There are many more, though.

Title Page of the Book of Mormon

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—

In the title page, the Lord is fulfilling the covenants, which He made to Joseph, to Lehi and also to Enos.

Enos 1:13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him—that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation—

14 For at the present our strugglings were vain in restoring them to the true faith. And they swore in their wrath that, if it were possible, they would destroy our records and us, and also all the traditions of our fathers.

15 Wherefore, I knowing that the Lord God was able to preserve our records, I cried unto him continually, for he had said unto me: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive in the name of Christ, ye shall receive it.

16 And I had faith, and I did cry unto God that he would preserve the records; and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth unto the Lamanites in his own due time.

17 And I, Enos, knew it would be according to the covenant which he had made; wherefore my soul did rest.

18 And the Lord said unto me: Thy fathers have also required of me this thing; and it shall be done unto them according to their faith; for their faith was like unto thine.

The BoM is also addressed to the Jew and to the Gentile, for as He declared at Bountiful concerning the gentiles:

3 Nephi 21:23 And they (gentiles) shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob (Lamanites), and also as many of the house of Israel (all other tribes of Israel) as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.

27 Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name.

28 Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.

3 Nephi 21 is a key chapter concerning the remnant. There are others, including 1 Nephi 13.

1 Nephi 13:33 Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment.

34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.

36 And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.

37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.

39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

There are a lot of scriptures concerning the Lamanites/remnants/restoration, etc in the Book of Mormon, largely because of the faith of Joseph, son of Jacob and also because of the faith of Lehi.

[BroJones]

My wife has native American = Lehite blood, and so do our children.
I've often thought that we may look to active, faithful temple-goers like her as among the Lehite remnant...

(Do some think to look JUST at the "Indian reservations" as repositories for the remnant? why?)

[samizdat]

The only division I have observed is among scholars and apologists. Sorry, brother, but the whole silence treatment from the "church" in my opinion is ridiculous. They either don't know or they are afraid, assuming you're telling the truth. I'm not sure which is worse, ignorance or fear. It's nonsense either way.

I don't believe so. But let's extend the scenario. Let's say the Church publicly comes out with "X is the location". What would happen?

Bob Henstra would probably apostasize from the Church if President Monson came out tomorrow and said it all happened in the central and eastern USA.

Quite a few on this board would apostasize if President Monson came out tomorrow and said it all happened in Mesoamerica.

And I am just talking about this forum.

I've even let out this canard to my fellow ward members, as in "suppose President Monson said that the Book of Mormon happened up in the USA" and they responded that that is not possible because there isn't a shred of evidence that there was any civilization of importance there compared with the Toltec, Olmec, and Maya civilizations (Of course on this forum we know differently). The (GA and AA) leaders have been wise on that part saying, one day all the records will be open and all of us will know exactly where everything took place.

So yes, it is a little more than just scholars and apologists. When you have overexuberent missionaries say that the Book of Mormon had to happen here, or there, that kind of feeds into the narrative as well. Paradaigms are developed. And it is incredibly tough to shake off a paradaigm.

[kathedralegs]

I think too much emphasis has been placed on Meso America because of the awe inspiring structures. That outward appearance of intelligence manifested in architectures of wonder draws us to believe that none other than the highly industrious Nephites could have built such things. Mounting evidence from Georgia to Tennessee to the Great Lakes seems to prove otherwise.

They were not savages. This one is different, but worth watching.

Thank you so much coachmarc. This was beautiful!! I have been led to study about the Native Americans and found so much truth there. I have developed a deep love and respect for these people. The thought that there are those of us who might regard them in any unfavorable way breaks my heart. Have you read the books about Fools Crow?

[marc]

Wow, samizdat! You have made some bold claims:

1. You are in contact with church leaders.
2. They fear divisions among saints for trivial matters (locations of lands) rather than doctrines or heaven help us, real prophecies.
3. People on this forum would apostatize if our leaders declared true locations of BoM lands.

I guess you are a spokesman and a prophet with this kind of knowledge. And people think Denver is crazy. I would truly be shocked if Bob apostatized for something so trivial. I'm not trying to demean your posts, but they are seriously astounding to me.

[samizdat]

Wow, samizdat! You have made some bold claims:

1. You are in contact with church leaders.
2. They fear divisions among saints for trivial matters (locations of lands) rather than doctrines or heaven help us, real prophecies.
3. People on this forum would apostatize if our leaders declared true locations of BoM lands.

I guess you are a spokesman and a prophet with this kind of knowledge. And people think Denver is crazy. I would truly be shocked if Bob apostatized for something so trivial. I'm not trying to demean your posts, but they are seriously astounding to me.

It is something which I see day in and day out on this forum. Don't worry, I don't have the hot lines to the Apostles and Prophets or anything like that. When I say I am in contact with Church leaders on this, it means I stay very close to what they are saying. Having my FIL that was an area 70 and two of his brothers who in one case was and the other case is stake president, really opened things up to me. It is a direct contact? No. But it is quite closer than what many people on this board supposedly have.

On the second point, there are divisions among the Saints for what should be basic doctrinal matters such as marriage and the family.

On this very forum there are divisions among the saints on who the current prophets are. One camp is derisively called the Brethrenites. Another group, the Snufferites. Other groups, remnants or residues.

And for the locations of lands, though it is trivial to many people (it is to me) it is not so trivial for others. When you have a paradaigm it is tough to get rid of it no matter how big or small it is.

On the third point, I still stand by my words that there would be people that would apostasize over the location of the BOM lands. It shouldn't happen but it would happen. I mentioned Bob because he "knows" that the BOM took place in Mesoamerica and has demeaned you guys that support the Heartland Model for lack of evidence specifically written evidence. I also mentioned other forum members without their names because there are many that likewise discount Mexico, Central or South America from the viewpoint that everything that happened in the Book of Mormon happened within the USA. I mentioned the case of me talking to my ward members in Mexico just as a canard and that was what they told me: Gringolandia had no pyramids, no temples, no civilizations that even come close to the Olmecs and Toltecs and Maya.

I am not a prophet, nor do I pretend to be one. That is a gift that for me is still lacking. A spokesman I am not either, though I do know several Church leaders I don't speak for them. I let them do the talking. And they haven't talked, for the reasons which I have stated, concerning the location of the Book of Mormon lands. The last one that ventured a guess I think was Elder Talmage (and he had a hemispherical model).

[BroJones]

Some day, the sealed portion will come forth and it may very well let us know where Zarahemla was located, also what really happened on 9/11 and other "controversial" issues.

Will people say "A Bible, a Bk of Mormon - we have enough"??
Will they apostasize over learning the truth?

[marc]

Thank for clarifying, samizdat. I think I know Bob well enough by now that his testimony is not grounded on the location of Zarahemla. He'd probably do a backflip to a straightback somersault and poop a brick if he got it wrong, but not leave the church.

I suppose there are members out there who would leave the church if their BoM land locations paradigm was shattered. I wonder what it would do to all the BYU students/scholars and/or authors who have invested so much time and energy on this. Deseret Book would probably lose some revenue on all those wonderful books that support evidences for this or that location, etc. The church would lose tithing revenue, etc. But if there are really that many people who would apostatize for this matter, then their testimony was not built on a rock to begin with and just needed an excuse to leave anyway.

Personally speaking, it's irrelevant to me where Zarahemla and all the other lands were located. I stand to lose nothing by knowing the truth, but quite the contrary. It just doesn't have any bearing on my testimony or my relationship with my Savior. Bro Jones, I do believe that soon, greater marvelous works and wonders will begin, but not before that darn desolating scourge sweeps the church and America.

[JohnnyL]

The only division I have observed is among scholars and apologists. Sorry, brother, but the whole silence treatment from the "church" in my opinion is ridiculous. They either don't know or they are afraid, assuming you're telling the truth. I'm not sure which is worse, ignorance or fear. It's nonsense either way.

I don't believe so. But let's extend the scenario. Let's say the Church publicly comes out with "X is the location". What would happen?

Bob Henstra would probably apostasize from the Church if President Monson came out tomorrow and said it all happened in the central and eastern USA.

Quite a few on this board would apostasize if President Monson came out tomorrow and said it all happened in Mesoamerica.

And I am just talking about this forum.

I've even let out this canard to my fellow ward members, as in "suppose President Monson said that the Book of Mormon happened up in the USA" and they responded that that is not possible because there isn't a shred of evidence that there was any civilization of importance there compared with the Toltec, Olmec, and Maya civilizations (Of course on this forum we know differently). The (GA and AA) leaders have been wise on that part saying, one day all the records will be open and all of us will know exactly where everything took place.

So yes, it is a little more than just scholars and apologists. When you have overexuberent missionaries say that the Book of Mormon had to happen here, or there, that kind of feeds into the narrative as well. Paradaigms are developed. And it is incredibly tough to shake off a paradaigm.

And as much as some keep saying it wouldn't happen, it would. Definitely.

Let's start with this, and expand it to other areas.

Many people's testimonies ARE at least partly based on BoM lands theories, whether at least semi-permanently or temporarily. Yes, people WOULD leave the church, in droves. "Dear people of Mexico, sorry to have misled you in the past, but most of you are 95% other, 5% Lehites." Nothing would happen, right? "Dear Lakotas, sorry, we've always been talking about south of the border Lamanites, not you." Ouch. Look at what happened with the "principal"/DNA situation a few years ago--many left the Church, many were disaffected. I imagine this would have at least the same impact. BoM tours and tour guides leave the Church. 2/3 of FAIR members leave the Church. Ha ha, ok, I'll stop there. But to say it would be just a shoulder shrug to everyone...? No, I don't think so.

Let's say the Church comes out and says Lincoln and FDR were bad, Hitler was good, 911 was an inside job, chemo and radiation are worthless and to be stopped by all members. I'm sure that truth would have members shouting for joy and proclaiming the goodness of truth, right? Ha ha, I could imagine that almost half the members would leave immediately and most would never go back in this life.

Now let's go outside the Church. Once hundreds of con-LDS groups and individuals heard this news, the responses would be deafening. Some would no doubt rush there first and try to destroy all evidence; others would put out all kinds or reasons it couldn't be true, some would do it but backed with the "latest scientific evidence"--"truth", that is; etc. And what good would come from it? I don't see much.

So IF the leaders knew, would it be helpful to say so? I don't think so. Would it be hurtful to say so? Yes.

[marc]

So IF the leaders knew, would it be helpful to say so? I don't think so. Would it be hurtful to say so? Yes.

Well, darn it. I guess the church is a LOT weaker than I ever thought possible.

[JohnnyL]

So IF the leaders knew, would it be helpful to say so? I don't think so. Would it be hurtful to say so? Yes.

Well, darn it. I guess the church is a LOT weaker than I ever thought possible.

Church members? Yes. Church leaders? -> I guess the church leaders are MUCH wiser than I ever thought possible. ;)

[samizdat]

Thank for clarifying, samizdat. I think I know Bob well enough by now that his testimony is not grounded on the location of Zarahemla. He'd probably do a backflip to a straightback somersault and poop a brick if he got it wrong, but not leave the church.

I suppose there are members out there who would leave the church if their BoM land locations paradigm was shattered. I wonder what it would do to all the BYU students/scholars and/or authors who have invested so much time and energy on this. Deseret Book would probably lose some revenue on all those wonderful books that support evidences for this or that location, etc. The church would lose tithing revenue, etc. But if there are really that many people who would apostatize for this matter, then their testimony was not built on a rock to begin with and just needed an excuse to leave anyway.

Personally speaking, it's irrelevant to me where Zarahemla and all the other lands were located. I stand to lose nothing by knowing the truth, but quite the contrary. It just doesn't have any bearing on my testimony or my relationship with my Savior. Bro Jones, I do believe that soon, greater marvelous works and wonders will begin, but not before that darn desolating scourge sweeps the church and America.

On those issues, I am in agreement with you. We have to remember the most important thing that is, a testimony of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Also I am in agreement with you over more marvelous works and wonders beginning and the scourge that is to come.

[samizdat]

So IF the leaders knew, would it be helpful to say so? I don't think so. Would it be hurtful to say so? Yes.

Well, darn it. I guess the church is a LOT weaker than I ever thought possible.

Compared to this world, it is quite weak.

But the Book of Mormon said that it would be little in comparison to the G&A Church. But it is getting stronger. The rock hasn't stopped coming down the mountain. When the time is right, and I think it will become right right around the corner, everything will be revealed.

[marc]

And they haven't talked, for the reasons which I have stated, concerning the location of the Book of Mormon lands. The last one that ventured a guess I think was Elder Talmage (and he had a hemispherical model).

One of them certainly has. But let me preface my reply:

There are literally dozens of references to the "promised land" in the Book of Mormon.

“…they cross the large waters into the promised land”
“…Seed of my brethren who were in the promised land”
“…they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land”
“…we have obtained a land of promise”
“…when they arrived in the promised land”
“…I could have joyed with him in the promised land”
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

There is simply no question that Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, and others considered the land they arrived at and occupied to be the "promised land".

"The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon"--L. Tom Perry, from a devotional address delivered on January 24, 2012, at Brigham Young University–Idaho.-- https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/12/the- ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When Nephi was given a vision of the future of his seed and also the future of the promised land, this is what he recorded:

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten...

Thanks to Elder Perry, it has been settled! Where Lehi arrived in the promised land is where the seed of Nephi's brethren were found and scattered by the Gentiles.

[samizdat]

And they haven't talked, for the reasons which I have stated, concerning the location of the Book of Mormon lands. The last one that ventured a guess I think was Elder Talmage (and he had a hemispherical model).

One of them certainly has. But let me preface my reply:

There are literally dozens of references to the "promised land" in the Book of Mormon.

“…they cross the large waters into the promised land”
“…Seed of my brethren who were in the promised land”
“…they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land”
“…we have obtained a land of promise”
“…when they arrived in the promised land”
“…I could have joyed with him in the promised land”
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

There is simply no question that Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, and others considered the land they arrived at and occupied to be the "promised land".

"The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon"--L. Tom Perry, from a devotional address delivered on January 24, 2012, at Brigham Young University–Idaho.-- https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/12/the- ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When Nephi was given a vision of the future of his seed and also the future of the promised land, this is what he recorded:

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten...

Thanks to Elder Perry, it has been settled! Where Lehi arrived in the promised land is where the seed of Nephi's brethren were found and scattered by the Gentiles.

Very interesting quote coach. It is obvious that we don't have all the details.

[marc]

True. I'm still open minded, though. The quote certainly leaves possibilities open. Then again, it doesn't.

[larsenb]

"The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon"--L. Tom Perry, from a devotional address delivered on January 24, 2012, at Brigham Young University–Idaho.-- https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/12/the- ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Thanks to Elder Perry, it has been settled! Where Lehi arrived in the promised land is where the seed of Nephi's brethren were found and scattered by the Gentiles.

But if you look at the actual 4 voyages of Columbus, this argument doesn’t hold up. Why?

His first two voyages, picking up the southern westerly trades at the Canaries, he travels due west on his 1st voyage and WSW on his 2nd voyage and encounters the main Caribbean islands, exploring most of the entire chain. Now, these islands are in the same latitude bracket as the main parts of the Land Northward, the Land Southward and the Land of Nephi, as generally outlined in the Mesoamerican model. He does not even see, let alone set foot in what is now the United States; and I don’t think Puerto Rico is a state yet, nor probably ever will be one.

His next two voyages are even further south, with the 3rd voyage heading SSW from the Canaries to the Cabo Verde Islands which are on latitude with the middle of eastern Africa, and ending up skirting the coast of South America in what is now Venezuela. He is the first to speculate that the ‘main’ that he was seeing was a massive land mass, and is therefore the first to discover South America. He then went north skirting the south coast of Santa Domingo and returned home.

On his fourth and last voyage, he sets sail in a SW direction from the Canaries, skirts the south coast of Santa Domingo and a part of Cuba, then he heads in a WSW direction and picks up the northern coast of what is now Honduras and proceeds east then south along this coast past present day Nicaragua, Costa Rica and finally the terrain of Panama. During this part of the voyage, they made many landfalls and dealt with many groups of natives; they endured incredible storms and in Panama they had serious problems including serious battles with the natives. All of this is SOUTH of the Yucatan Peninsula, smack dab in what the Mesoamerican model would tag as the land of the Lamanites.

Referencing a fascinating book, titled: Christopher Columbus – A Man among the Gentiles, by Clark B. Hinkley.

[marc]

I wrote somewhere concerning Columbus and also a group of gentiles come to scatter the seed of Nephi's brethren, and also a group of gentiles that escaped "captivity" and also warred with their "mother gentiles." Lots of clues. But who am I to argue with an apostle of the Lord? ;)

[larsenb]

I wrote somewhere concerning Columbus and also a group of gentiles come to scatter the seed of Nephi's brethren, and also a group of gentiles that escaped "captivity" and also warred with their "mother gentiles." Lots of clues. But who am I to argue with an apostle of the Lord? ;)

The problem is with equating "the promised land" only with the area of the United States. I"ll bet L. Tom Perry would not insist on this.

In fact, as I recall there are have been many posts demonstrating that other apostles view the promised land as a much larger area grading on the entire western hemisphere; or at least recognizing the 'seed of Nephi's brethren' spread over this region.

Not much of an argument for the Heartland Model.