Book of Mormon Heartland Model

[samizdat]

Does the Church have an archaeological department? Does BYU? And if not why not? Think of how much this would boost the missionary effort for the Church? There is so much to be explored both in Central and South America, and even in North America. I remember reading that it was the Smithsonian Institute that hindered the archaeological exploration of the New England-area. Why hide the truth?

The leaders of the Church (FP, Q12A) know exactly where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place.

But thanks to many conflicts about where it happened among the general membership of the Church and seeing forums like these where many people say: "It's the Heartland!" or "It's Mesoamerica!" with so much passion as to assume that one that says that this must be or one is committing apostasy.

One cannot define specifically where certain things are in the Book of Mormon from a leadership position (lets say a bishop or stake president) without running the risk of a disciplinary council.

In my OPINION, it started out in Chile. It ended in Cumorah (New York). Most of the filler would have happened in the Andes in the case of the Nephites and in northern Mesoamerica and southern North America in the case of the Jaredites. But like I say it is OPINION.

[cayenne]

The church has spent significant time and resource (through arms length organizations) in the pursuit of archaeological evidence to back up the claims of the Book of Mormon. The results were less than gratifying. Men have spent their whole careers searching for something conclusive but have, in the end, been disappointed. That is not to say there is a complete dearth of evidence. It's just not conclusive. In the end, we are still required to accept or reject the Book of Mormon on faith. I think that may be exactly what God intended.

I agree the evidence is not conclusive, but thankfully a whole lot of stuff has been found in the last few decades backing up many BOM claims not known in J.Smiths day by anyone. It should make non believers at least go hmmmmmm.

[marc]

Well, I only have one question. Referring to my previous post, if Lehi landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, what were Nephites doing way up in Ohio, Illinois, etc where Joseph Smith was trekking with the Zion's Camp?

And if it was heartland, what was Moroni doing stopping to dedicate a temple site in Manti on his way to New York with the plates?

You mean this? http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon ... e-prophets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some interesting anecdotes and maps. Anyway, I'm about done here. This topic has taken too much of my time. It's been fun.

[marc]

What does the octagon shape mean?

It has to do with Lunar cycles. Watch the videos. Folks, just watch the videos. Never make judgments about anything until you have all the facts or at least weigh all the evidences. I have enjoyed all the videos I've ever watched from Sorensen and others about Meso America. I have especially enjoyed the videos I shared in this thread. In the end, it really doesn't matter. Go out and serve someone.

[francisco.colaco]

The mesoamerican model is incorrect. In fact, Christ DID appear in Mesoamerica or most probably South America as Viracocha or Quetacoatl (the legends are there, in various tribes, and correspond to a White God). But those legends and oral traditions do NOT recount the appearance of Christ as recorded in the Book of Mormon because, well!, they are not the same.

Please refer to one important detail in those oral accounts: how does Christ (Viracocha, whatever the name) leave after the visit? They *all* say he walked over water. It's one common theme in the regional legends. In one account the lake Titicaca was crossed over, in others the sea (or a large body of water). I have read the accounts. There was an Ensign in 1984 that had a compilation of such accounts, but I know most of them from independent sources..

Now compare to the ascension within the account of the Book of Mormon. Would a *small detail* like a miraculous ascension be morphed into a mere transversal of a body of water? Unlikely. And IN ALL REGIONAL ACCOUNTS!!? Thus, two different visitations, two different accounts, and the Central/South American one cannot be for the reason specified the one decipted in the book we all read and love. More scripture is to come. Believe me.

We have traditional accounts of visitation of a white God at the least in Africa, India and China. Christ was indeed very busy, with a lot of folds to visit. Prepare to have a scriptural body that will take a linear metre of shelf, or most likely a couple megabytes of flash memory.

Sorry to return to LDS Freedom Forum, but I would not let priesthood brothers fight among themselves without taking into account a mere detail that should clear things up. We do know that several groups were taken at will by the Lord. I do not believe the Lord was only mentioning Mulek and his group when He.had it revealed and written.

[marc]

I also have a written account of the Hopi having been visited by Christ. I have no doubt that Christ visited many groups throughout the Americas. He was very clear in 3 Nephi that He was going to visit them all. Personally speaking, I believe that the plumed serpent in the Central American pyramids are a corrupted version of the representation of Christ, who was represented by Moses as the brazen serpent. I have also read somewhere that the serpent represents a seraph, which is tied to the symbolism. Interesting that Lucifer appeared to Adam and eve as a serpent. We have a plumed serpent representing Christ and a serpent without plumes representing the adversary. An interesting dichotomy.

[commonwealth]

Since this thread started I learned that I live very close to a few of the mounds, and that in fact, the early townspeople here burned a few mummies that were discovered back in the 1700's. I visited a few of the sites today, but alas, no Nephite sitings yet...

[commonwealth]

little play on words there - can't document that the sites are nephite/lamanite, and haven't seen any nephites....

https://www.google.com/search?q=siting& ... 9&ie=UTF-8

[EdGoble]

Bob, don't hate me, brother. I just kept putting off investigating this model for years as you probably remember when it was a gospel hobby of mine, which ended a couple years ago as I began to dive deeper into my personal studies. For decades, I believed that Meso America was where the BoM setting took place (and I also had my own hair brained ideas). After just one documentary presentation, I am persuaded otherwise. I don't really care to pursue this much further as my personal studies are vastly more important to me, but this was fun to watch and really quite the eye opener. It connected some dots and answered some questions, which I had for a long time. Of course, one day we will know for sure whereas today, it is all still educated guessing. If you make it through to the end, you just might be persuaded as I surely am. There are very strong evidences in this video. Enjoy.

Coachmarc,

http://www.amazon.com/This-Land-Zarahem ... 970398514/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am breaking my silence again to warn you. I was the originator of the Heartland theory in the book This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation 12 years ago. That was my first book that was published.
I need to state that Wayne May was my former partner and he is a quack. And the rest of the Hearlander proponents like him and Rod Meldrum are all quacks. Rod Meldrum based his theory on mine, and I have long since retracted the theory. Do yourself a favor and don't get sucked up in this. The "evidences" are all red herrings/trojan horses to fool the foolish.

Ed Goble

[marc]

Ed! My brother, how are you? I appreciate your thoughtful post and have taken it along with everything else under consideration. In my final analysis, I am convinced that Joseph Smith knew much more than he generally revealed and I trust his own words above all the scholars. I do believe Joseph Smith when he wrote a letter to Emma from the shore of the Mississippi River telling her that since he and company had left Ohio (Zion's camp), he had "wandered over the plains of the Nephites, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord and picked up their skulls and bones as proof of their divine authenticity." So many miles of walking through Nephite country! Those mounds were permanent structures, whether burial or otherwise. But I am no more "sucked into" the heartland model than the Meso American model. In the end when the Lord reveals all, we'll all have a big laugh together. I am curious, though, as you have since retracted your theory, why have you not pulled your book from Amazon.com? All my best to you!

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... e-1834&p=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

p.s. Looks our own dear Robert Sinclair bought your book. I love his signature lines.

[EdGoble]

Because Wayne May owns the rights to the book and won't quit publishing it.

If you believe in Joseph Smith, then you should listen to what he said about Desolation in the Levi Hancock Journal:

"On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side, in the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that [were] brought, with a broken arrow. They [were] laid down by our camp. Joseph addressed himself to Sylvester Smith: 'This is what I told you, and now I want to tell you, that you may know what I meant. This land was called the Land of Desolation, and Onandagus was the King, and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead.'"

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), Joseph Smith taught that everything in the United States was part of the Land of Desolation, making it the Land Northward, which pushes the Neck of Land down into Mesoamerica.

Of course it was the plains of the Nephites... In their northern domain. My brother, if you want to believe in Joseph Smith on a subject, you must believe everything he said on that subject, and not cherry pick. The discovery of this statement was what led to my retraction of the theory. Rod Meldrum knows this statement exists, but rejects it deliberately in favor of the other problematic statements. And conveniently, he will not bring the statement to anyone's attention, deliberately. The Manti in Missouri is not the Manti of the Book of Mormon. It was a thing renamed after the original down south. Take it from somebody who has been through the pain and disappointment of having to retract a whole book for the sake of owning up to and admitting to the truth, and don't allow yourself to be fooled.

Ed

[marc]

Yikes, bummer about May owning the rights to your book. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, though. I simply haven't read everything Joseph Smith has said or supposedly said, which is why I am no more sucked into the Heartland Model than the Meso American Model. But I still believe the Nephites lived and died where Joseph wrote they did to Emma. I am sure we all be surprised together when the Lord reveals all and we all have a good laugh together.

[Gideon]

Well, I only have one question. Referring to my previous post, if Lehi landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, what were Nephites doing way up in Ohio, Illinois, etc where Joseph Smith was trekking with the Zion's Camp?

And in NY and Canada.

[EdGoble]

Yikes, bummer about May owning the rights to your book. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, though. I simply haven't read everything Joseph Smith has said or supposedly said, which is why I am no more sucked into the Heartland Model than the Meso American Model. But I still believe the Nephites lived and died where Joseph wrote they did to Emma. I am sure we all be surprised together when the Lord reveals all and we all have a good laugh together.

Yeah, it sucks not having control of what ought to be my intellectual property so I would be able to put an end to some of this.
Well, I don't mean to say you were intentionally cherry picking. However, Rod Meldrum is deliberately.

I believe they died there too, in the midwestern US. I believe in Cumorah in New York as the site of the last destruction. The evidence just seems to compel a point of view contrary to the Heartland model, that the Land of Zarahemla is south of the Rio Grande, south of a narrow neck to the south. Probably Tehantepec.

Oh well, back to lurking so I can avoid my tendency to contend with people.

Laters.

[karend77]

Coach Marc,

Thank you for the videos. This is fascinating stuff. For many years I leaned towards the MesoAmerican model. Having had the opportunity to study and visit many of them, I am now not so sure. I've always had a soft spot and curiosity about our native american brothers and sisters and their culture and history. These videos help put more pieces in the puzzle. Regardless of where the Book of Mormon lands took place, as has been said, our testimonies of the Book of Mormon must be anchored in faith.

Same can be said for the process in believing in the Bible- old and new testament stories. One does not need to visit the Holy lands (of which I have been blessed to do as well) to have a testimony of the events. There is still controversies there, where Jesus spent his childhood, where he was really buried, where the transfiguration really took place, etc, that to know for a surety will only be accomplished through study, fasting and prayer.

[larsenb]

larsenb, you make a valid point. However, what I have always looked for and could never find until this weekend with these presentations by Wayne May is commentary, or rather quotes and/or letters/journal entries from Joseph Smith. This puts this baby to bed for me. I am aware that quotes are attributed to him regarding places in Meso America, but they aren't as compelling.

There is so much circumstantial evidence with both models, but the Heartland Model is pulling fast and far ahead with direct evidence. I would be surprised if Thomas S. Monson declared by revelation that Meso America or any other location, including the Heartland model was correct. Because of Joseph Smith, the location of at least Zarahemla, Manti and the City Desolation are now established with the waters of Mormon extrapolated beautifully and flowing today. What a gorgeous setting.

What I do find odd in both models is the narrow neck of land both run relatively east to west (the Niagara strip of land was called by the native Indians, or rather Niagara literally translated is neck). But the land North is above the Great Lakes and the Land South is, well everything south of them. In any case, Joseph being the editor doesn't necessarily mean he was always the author of the articles or even present when articles were written. When the articles were written concerning Zarahemla by Taylor and Woodruff, Joseph was in hiding and not present and therefore did not sign his name to those articles. If so, then he has contradicted himself in the letters and citations elsewhere in the above presentations. And that puts us back to square one.

The reason I mentioned Ric Hauck’s book is that I think he set a very high standard for dealing with the geographically-related statements in the Book of Mormon. If Meldrum or May have neglected to do something similar and as rigorous as Hauck for their model, and/or have not shown how and why Hauck is significantly off or wrong in his assessment, they’re blowing smoke and arm-waving.

I.e., they simply haven’t done their homework. Ric set the standard regarding the assessment of relative and concrete geographical placement of Book of Mormon locations, in my strongly held view. He is using a potent methodology, semi-quantitative as it may be.

Normally science and academic research in general proceeds by showing how and why opposing views or models are wrong or don’t cover the ground. I’m not aware that Meldrum and/or May have shown where Hauck has gone wrong with his methodology and conclusions.

Additionally, another but more recent study by Dr. John L. Lund (Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, 2012) establishes with a high degree of probability that Joseph Smith was indeed the author of the Times and Seasons editorials placing Zarahemla and the Narrow Neck of Land in the region of John Lloyd Stephen’s discoveries, namely southern Mexico and Guatemala.

In Chapter 9 of his book, he uses what he calls 11 author identifiers or discriminators to show that the writer of the editorials in question was Joseph Smith and not Wilford Woodruff or John Taylor. I don’t have time now to enumerate the discriminators, but every one pointed to Joseph Smith as the author. Additionally, as I recall, there is a word print study from maybe a couple of years earlier that shows the same thing, with some the elements of the study similar to those used by Lund.

Finally, in Addendum 6, Claim 2 of Lund’s book he proves that the claim that Joseph Smith was out of town or in hiding during the publication of these editorials is “blatantly false”. Again not enough time right now to delve into particulars.

In my view, if Meldrum and May neglect to address these two studies and are not able to either rebut them or at least show how similar methodologies support their own model and views, they have drastically fallen short of the higher academic, scientific and logical mark set by these two authors.

[francisco.colaco]

EdGoble,

One of the appointed faults to the Heartland Modelo is the lack of arrowheads or flint near or on the Hill Cumorah. Is that inexistence of material evidence true?

The hieroglyphs of the Maia culture and of the egypcians are so different between them that they do not point for a common origin, much less to a parental relationship. Are there any script systems that may fill the role of missing links?

Proponents of the mesoamerican model say often that the hill where the plates were buried is not Hill Cumorah. In fact, Joseph Smith's account does not name the said hill. We have only a semi-aprophical account of a visitation of one of the three nephites to Joseph asking for the hill by name. What is your opinion on that matter?

How wide do you guess the nephite settings were?

I guess I would have more to ask you. I am quite interested to hear your reformulated opinion.

[boo]

Does the Church have an archaeological department? Does BYU? And if not why not? Think of how much this would boost the missionary effort for the Church? There is so much to be explored both in Central and South America, and even in North America. I remember reading that it was the Smithsonian Institute that hindered the archaeological exploration of the New England-area. Why hide the truth?

The leaders of the Church (FP, Q12A) know exactly where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place..

Do you have any evidence of this? As I trust you know more than one has denied knowing even generally much less " precisely" TIA

[AI2.0]

Yikes, bummer about May owning the rights to your book. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, though. I simply haven't read everything Joseph Smith has said or supposedly said, which is why I am no more sucked into the Heartland Model than the Meso American Model. But I still believe the Nephites lived and died where Joseph wrote they did to Emma. I am sure we all be surprised together when the Lord reveals all and we all have a good laugh together.

Yeah, it sucks not having control of what ought to be my intellectual property so I would be able to put an end to some of this.
Well, I don't mean to say you were intentionally cherry picking. However, Rod Meldrum is deliberately.

I believe they died there too, in the midwestern US. I believe in Cumorah in New York as the site of the last destruction. The evidence just seems to compel a point of view contrary to the Heartland model, that the Land of Zarahemla is south of the Rio Grande, south of a narrow neck to the south. Probably Tehantepec.

Oh well, back to lurking so I can avoid my tendency to contend with people.

Laters.

In my internet wanderings I came across an article you wrote about this. I was shocked that Wayne May used the Michigan cave relics in his evidence considering they'd been determined fakes over 100 years ago. I can understand being concerned that some might dismiss them as fakes too readily, but the fact that James Talmage studied them and concurred they were fakes should have been all he needed to realize they should not have been used to support his theories.
Because he was dishonest with his readers, to me, it is hard to give much credence to his scholarship.

[Desert Roses]

Read an interesting and amazing book recently by non-LDS author Frank Joseph, The Lost Colonies of Ancient America, in which he provides the archaeological evidence for a number of colonizers of North America. Specifically, he associates proto-Hebrew writings and findings with the Hopewell Indians, and shows the various sites and pieces of evidence found, including tablets with the Law inscribed. His book added to what I'd already started to conclude based on scriptural evidence.

Thanks coach, for the links, very interesting stuff.

[AI2.0]

Of course it was the plains of the Nephites... In their northern domain. My brother, if you want to believe in Joseph Smith on a subject, you must believe everything he said on that subject, and not cherry pick.

I agree that we should not cherry pick, and a lot are guilty of this. In addition, I think that all the statements Joseph made which were reported and written down by someone else, must be considered as possibly misheard or misremembered. I personally do not take them as for certain accurate as claimed because people make mistakes and there may be some mistakes in the remembering of some of these stories which have come down to us in diaries, journals, etc.

[Desert Roses]

I am definitely sold on the heartland model. There is simply too much there to ignore.

I went to Rod's second presentation many years ago at Provo City Library, when he was just getting started. I have followed his research over the years, and have only one differencing view from him. After the crucifixion, and the continual slow destruction of the Nephite nation, they moved to Mesa Verde and the four corners areas. That the last destruction of the Nephites eventually happen in this areas. This fits with what Joseph Smith told Mosiah Hancock.

Another great author, though one who has been kind of stuck on the Meso-American model, has suggested that the Hopi in particular are the remnants of the People of Ammon, who may have been where Mormon was reared, based on some of the evidence of their cultural traditions and tidbits in the scriptures.

[AI2.0]

Read an interesting and amazing book recently by non-LDS author Frank Joseph, The Lost Colonies of Ancient America, in which he provides the archaeological evidence for a number of colonizers of North America. Specifically, he associates proto-Hebrew writings and findings with the Hopewell Indians, and shows the various sites and pieces of evidence found, including tablets with the Law inscribed. His book added to what I'd already started to conclude based on scriptural evidence.

Thanks coach, for the links, very interesting stuff.

Hmmm, I bet it is the same Frank Joseph I read about when I was reading Ed Goble's article. Some of the people are pretty sketchy. You'd better check the internet for more information on any archeological claims he makes in the book--I don't think these guys care if things are hoaxes. They are so determined to prove their theory they will use whatever they can find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

[Desert Roses]

One thing that I've been curious about as I've been watching videos is the route Lehi's group would have taken to arrive on the eastern half of the US. One author suggested a landing near the Mississippi on the Gulf Coast; however, it is pretty clear that Lehi's group left the Arabian peninsula somewhere in the Arabian Sea, since they traveled in a south by southeast direction from Jerusalem. Looking at a map of the world, the only way would have been to go around the Cape of Good Hope at the tip of Africa, a feat that was not repeated by modern sailors until Bartalamau Dias in 1488. This voyage would have been more than "many days"; it could take months to get to the cape, and the storms were infamous for breaking up ships, making it one of the most dangerous voyages of those explorers.

Those using a Meso-American model suggest that Lehi's group went through the islands of Southeast Asia, crossing the Pacific, and ending up on the western shores of what is now southern Mexico or Guatemala. This, too, is more than "many days", taking perhaps years, according to one person.

Any ideas on this? What might a route from the shores of the Saudi peninsula to modern southeastern United States have looked like?

[samizdat]

Does the Church have an archaeological department? Does BYU? And if not why not? Think of how much this would boost the missionary effort for the Church? There is so much to be explored both in Central and South America, and even in North America. I remember reading that it was the Smithsonian Institute that hindered the archaeological exploration of the New England-area. Why hide the truth?

The leaders of the Church (FP, Q12A) know exactly where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place..

Do you have any evidence of this? As I trust you know more than one has denied knowing even generally much less " precisely" TIA

I am in frequent contact with the Church leaders.

They know but they don't tell anyone for fear of dividing up the Lamanite membership of the Church whether they be up in Canada and Alaska or down in Chile and Argentina.

And fear of dividing up the membership in the USA that is constantly fighting over "Mesoamerica" or "Heartland" or any other theory that pops up such as the Baja and Andean theories.

Each side uses Joseph Smith to back up their arguments.

Historically I've been Mesoamerican but looking at the book more and more and seeing evidence for it in many places but in pieces.

Which is where I get my OPINION that the Book started in Chile and Peru, went to Mesoamerica in the middle of it (when the First King Mosiah flees), and then ended up in New York. The Jaredites would have started out in Mesoamerica and also likewise moved north.

The Chilean members that I know of could almost swear they heard Elder Holland say to them in an area broadcast that Lehi landed near Valparaiso. That is something a Durangout or anyone else would say that isn't reliable evidence. Except to note that Joseph Smith said pretty much the exact same thing but mentioned a latitude line slightly north of Valparaiso.