Did Joseph F. Smith Hide “Strange” First Vision Account?

[Joel]

Here is a PowerPoint presentation (original link) titled “The Case of the Three Torn Pages” which is based on a Dialogue article by Stan Larson titled “Another Look at Joseph Smith’s First Vision”.


















Saw this here.

[aeon]

I did not know that.
I found a harmony of 9 accounts here : http://www.eldenwatson.net/harmony.htm

[marc]

If the Joseph Smith Papers weren't so expensive, I'd snatch them up. I'm glad they're available online free, though. The church has since Joseph's day put itself on quite the spot.

[aeon]

We have the same 'problem' with the 4 gospels and the creation accounts. That's why it is so important to know those things by ourselves through the power of the holy ghost and through visions and visitations (I'm still working on the last 2 ;)

[marc]

We have the same 'problem' with the 4 gospels and the creation accounts. That's why it is so important to know those things by ourselves through the power of the holy ghost and through visions and visitations (I'm still working on the last 2 ;)

Good point!

[lundbaek]

I can understand that conflicting accounts of Joseph Smith Jr.'s first vision could rattle the testimonies of some Church members. It seems that in recent years there has been criticism of the LDS Church for covering-up or muzzling certain events in the Church history. And I am troubled by what seems to me a muzzling of what I see as a doctrinal imperative that we Latter-day Saints have to do what we can to preserve liberty, and learn and abide by the principles of the US Constitution (with no apparent exceptions for citizens of other countries). This confusion makes me grateful for the testimony that I have, most of which I attribute to communications I have received from the other side of the veil and the results.

I have little patience with deceptions, even withholding of information relative to Church matters. While a branch president I was irritated on one occasions by what I can only call disinformation (some would call it a bald faced lie) by one member against another, on another occasion by not being told by the stake presidency of something coming my way, and also by lack of information about the background of a troubled member of the branch. In each of these cases accurate info up front would have saved a lot of trouble and aggravation.

[SkyBird]

I feel if our faith is tested in physical things (and it will) such as different versions of the first vision or polygamy or the correct form of baptism or tithing or who has the “authority” to perform this ordinance or that ordinance or whether the priesthood should go to women or blacks or both… all this and much more has caused people to leave the church. This is, IMO the main test for humanity... It is obvious we are all part of the human race and the real “test” is to see if we will judge each other by what “physical stuff and things” separates us from each other, which one is right and which one is wrong. The reality is we all have the capacity to manifest the “fruit of the Spirit” or the “works of the flesh” … this I feel will separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, the righteous from the wicked, the holy from the unholy, the Celestial from the Terrestrial and Telestial. A testimony of the “truth” is not in the “forms and structures” of our lives… the “forms and structures” merely testify of the “god potential” we all have in common with each other. This is the great mystery of why we exist and for what purpose. From the very beginning of time the simple call to action was to “be holy; for I am holy.”

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(New Testament | Galatians 5:22 - 26)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(New Testament | Galatians 5:19 - 21)

[oneClimbs]

A few years after returning from my mission, I had this idea to write an account of my mission experience and give a copy to the young men in my ward. It was a small branch and none of them had older siblings who had served a mission so the idea was to provide them with a detailed account of what a mission is like.

It had only been about 8 years since my mission and a lot of the experiences were still fresh in my mind because I had talked about them often and thought about some of the more powerful experiences often as well.

I didn't keep the best journal as a missionary. Sometimes weeks went by so quickly, time just flew because I was so involved in what I was doing. So I just hit the highlights and some things I tried to describe in more detail. Some of the most spiritual experiences, however, I had only touched on by saying things like, "Wow, had an incredible experience this evening!" I was more making a note of an event than thinking about detailing all of the little nuances for the historical record. You just don't think of things like that at the time.

As I went back through my journal I was glad for what I did write and as I went through it, so many things I had forgotten about flooded back to me. So when I was putting together this book, I was writing it for others rather than myself. I thought back to those experiences and did my best to describe them in the most minute of details.

Recounting spiritual experiences is very difficult. When I see Joseph fluctuating between words like "light" or "fire" I understand why because I know what he's trying to describe.

I've told some of my most personal experiences several times. Sometimes what you think you experienced turns out to be something slightly different as you come to understand things in more depth. It is difficult to describe some things that are so foreign to this world and our everyday experiences.

So I'm not surprised by differing accounts because I've seen the same thing in my own experience. It depends on who you are talking to. I have one account of an experience in my original journal, the book I wrote and then another public version on my blog. All three are different; as different as the first vision accounts.

Had I not experienced sacred things myself, I would no doubt be very skeptical of Joseph Smith's fluctuating accounts. But when I read them, I see another human being, like myself, trying to use the English language to paint a picture of things that far surpass it's capabilities.

Imagine trying to paint a sunset with an etch-a-sketch.

As for Joseph F. Smith and others who might want to suppress any other accounts, I think when we look back we can all agree that this is wrong. But back then, if you felt that you didn't have a good explanation for these kinds of things, you might not have thought it was necessary to focus on an earlier account when later accounts were written specifically for the church.

I don't know what he was thinking, but I'm not going to throw him under the bus. I know these things are difficult for people, but I enjoy the challenge they present. The more we know God, the easier it is to understand some of these difficult issues.

[Leejae]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

[oneClimbs]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

That's one theory.

The fact is that God ordains priests and commands them to preach, teach and ordain other priests. They are to correct errors in doctrine and gather the people into Zion. We've seen many flavors of how this has been done in the Bible, Book of Mormon and as recent as the restoration. It seems like God gives a somewhat limited core of information and leave it to use to adapt it to our needs. Many times, it's done well, and at other times it's just done plain wrong. I think this is all part of the programme, however. Will priests lead the people in humility? Will the people be charitable and be the means he helping to keep those priests from falling, like Aaron and Hur did with Moses, or sidestep and let them fall flat on their faces?

It's a test for us all. The "Church" you see, the shell made up of buildings, manuals and offices is the latest attempt at building Zion. But at the core, you will find some of the greatest truths that have been revealed. Within a ward, you will find a great place for developing charity, forgiveness and service while discussing the gospel and receiving ordinances.

Outside of all that we have the world, friends, neighbors, people from all kinds of backgrounds who all have truth for us to study and bring to Zion. The existence of the Church doesn't hinder me in any way, no more than the rest of the world does. It's easy to find fault and jump ship, but at some point you have to realize that you can't jump humanity. A Saint seeks to prosper amid conflict, especially among brethren, especially in the attempt to build Zion.

Perhaps the Lord has instructed others to splinter themselves off. I won't argue with them, I have my own path to walk and I'll let them walk theirs. My purpose here is to illustrate that while you can legitimately criticize just about anyone and anything, I find it more productive to fix broken things and to beat a spear into a pruning hook.

[SkyBird]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

That's one theory.

The fact is that God ordains priests and commands them to preach, teach and ordain other priests. They are to correct errors in doctrine and gather the people into Zion. We've seen many flavors of how this has been done in the Bible, Book of Mormon and as recent as the restoration. It seems like God gives a somewhat limited core of information and leave it to use to adapt it to our needs. Many times, it's done well, and at other times it's just done plain wrong. I think this is all part of the programme, however. Will priests lead the people in humility? Will the people be charitable and be the means he helping to keep those priests from falling, like Aaron and Hur did with Moses, or sidestep and let them fall flat on their faces?

It's a test for us all. The "Church" you see, the shell made up of buildings, manuals and offices is the latest attempt at building Zion. But at the core, you will find some of the greatest truths that have been revealed. Within a ward, you will find a great place for developing charity, forgiveness and service while discussing the gospel and receiving ordinances.

Outside of all that we have the world, friends, neighbors, people from all kinds of backgrounds who all have truth for us to study and bring to Zion. The existence of the Church doesn't hinder me in any way, no more than the rest of the world does. It's easy to find fault and jump ship, but at some point you have to realize that you can't jump humanity. A Saint seeks to prosper amid conflict, especially among brethren, especially in the attempt to build Zion.

Perhaps the Lord has instructed others to splinter themselves off. I won't argue with them, I have my own path to walk and I'll let them walk theirs. My purpose here is to illustrate that while you can legitimately criticize just about anyone and anything, I find it more productive to fix broken things and to beat a spear into a pruning hook.

I agree with these thoughts... and I think you brought out some good points. The several visions that Joseph had are all valid and important to the process he was asking and seeking from God. I feel when men begin to really get caught up the formalism of the Church they begin to "fear" loosing members... if all the diaries were all made known. There is a way around that and that is to put the focus on the "spirit of the law" and start teaching the symbolism of the "forms and structures" of the church rather than a dogmatic approach that "priesthood authority" is the "only way." Priesthood is a beautiful metaphor for teaching and it works when people see the "symbol" of it spiritually and relate it to the "fruit of the Spirit," which we all potentially have woven into the fabric of our Spirit Intelligence. I think Joseph Smith knew this... but that is another test of the "effects of our faith."

[minorityofone]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

Thank God Almighty someone else has learned this? Wow I was thinking my wife and siblings and a few others were the only ones... Do you know others that have learned this? (Besides David whitmer : ))

[Tribunal]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

How did you come to this conclusion?

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

Interesting thought!

[minorityofone]

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

How did you come to this conclusion?

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

Interesting thought!

I can't speak for anyone else but I can tell you that I learned it by revelation. The moment I learned it was when I was reading david whitmer testify that the 8 months before the church was organized by law (April 6th 1830), were the most spiritual and miraculous 8 months they had as a people. They were ordaining people and baptizing and spreading the Book of Mormon and the only reason they officially organized a church was because they were supposed to for legal reasons. That is when they had to elect a president, and joseph smith began to think more of himself than he should have. He was ordained as an Elias under the hands of John the Baptist. This was a preparatory function and God promised the greater things IF people would be faithful to the first things. The people wanted a king or a Moses and they lifted joseph smith up as a king and listened to whatever he said as if he was God. Still happens today with thomas a monson. The curse is just beginning to be lifted and hopefully this time we will know not to trust in men!

[oneClimbs]

There's this idea that there are only two ways of seeing things. You're either one who is holy all by themselves and has no need for the servants of the Lord or there are the others who don't have a relationship with God at all and think they'll just "follow the prophet" all the way to glory.

I believe that both of these extremes are gross caricatures. I'd like to propose one small example for your consideration. In Matthew chapter 8 we see the miracles that occurred when people came to Jesus, in faith, and were healed or delivered from peril. Note that Jesus gave his apostles the same commission to go and do as he had done. When people came to Jesus, I'm going to suggest that few really understood who he really was, even his apostles didn't really get it until the resurrection. They came to him because of their faith in God.

It was that faith that healed them. He had no form or comeliness that we should desire him, yet some believed and some trusted while others could not help but look for error, mistakes and esteemed him as a fraud at best and a servant of the Devil at worst. This was the Messiah.

Jesus told his apostles that those who reject them, reject him. Those that reject Jesus are rejecting the Father. To sustain doesn't mean to blindly obey, the word sustain means "to keep from falling" which implies that the one you are sustaining is fallible.

Part of life's test is how we respond to servants of the Lord. Do we believe that God can work through flawed instruments? Or do we think we can just go worship God on our little islands? To really understand the priesthood, consider Alma 13 and D&C 121, the priesthood is simply the order which God himself lives that he invites us into.

Part of being his people is the responsibility to utilize his servants properly, not to turn them into idols but to extend our charity and service their way as well. Like Aaron and Hur, they are prime examples of how personal faith, servants of the Lord and the people all succeed together. Other situations like the people demanding a king are examples of how that is abused.

It is a fine line to walk, but so many Saints today seem content to take the easy route and mentally stone the servants of the Lord when the reality is their hands are hanging low, the rod is hanging and Israel is being prevailed upon. Instead of being an Aaron or Hur and rising up to save Israel, they look forward to wiping the slate clean and starting afresh.

That's what the Lord wanted to do once with Moses' people. But Moses fasted 40 days and nights and his faith saved his idolatrous people, he refused to give up on them.

Back to Jesus. I believe that the real power in Matthew chapter 8 is demonstrating how living, breathing servant of the Lord on earth is something that God has given us to exercise our faith. Think of how many people sit idly by waiting for their home teachers and complain when they don't show up.

Why not call them? Why not ask them to come and bless your family? Why not show faith in God by reaching out to another and allowing them to act as a servant of the Lord to bless you? Isn't that what Jesus did with John the Baptist? There is a humility in reaching out to God through another person who is supposed to be his agent. Perhaps there would be greater miracles if more people reached out to their home teachers...they are the closest representatives of the Lord to us.

I suppose they have no form or comeliness that we should desire them. I guess they are idolaters caught up in sports or porn and no blessing could ever be had at their hands. We want "the priesthood" to do miraculous things when Lectures on Faith shows that the mightiest miracles are not done by virtue of the priesthood but by faith. What if that's the point? What if it works the opposite of the way we think it does? What if the miracles don't come from the priesthood down, but by the people as their put their faith in the servants of the Lord? What if that faith coupled with God's servants activates the miracle?

I've done a horrible job at trying to express my point here. I'm hoping the Spirit and an open mind can allow someone to see one or two things a little differently. My point is that we are one, and the hand cannot tell the foot that he has no need of him. We are all in this together. Our obligation is to take care of the body, when the Lord wants to perform surgery or an amputation, that is his business. In the mean time, we have work to do.

[ajax]

Think of how many people sit idly by waiting for their home teachers and complain when they don't show up.

I can't come up with anyone. More nuisance than anything. I always seemed to hide from my home teachers and complained when they showed up.

[oneClimbs]

Think of how many people sit idly by waiting for their home teachers and complain when they don't show up.

I can't come up with anyone. More nuisance than anything. I always seemed to hide from my home teachers and complained when they showed up.

That's kind of my point.

Consider the following verses from the portion referred to as the oath and covenant of the priesthood:

"And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord; For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;" D&C 84:35-36

I'd like to suggest that "receive this priesthood" may not be referring to ordination.

Jesus had no form or comeliness that anyone should desire him, they drug him off to be crucified and no crowds rose up to defend him. They spit upon him and mocked him on the cross. I'm sure he annoyed many people and we see people complaining about him in the scriptures.

But doesn't God work through the weak things? If so, then all of a sudden all of the home teachers in the church deserve a second look ;) And yes, I'm serious. Are the home teachers the problem or is the problem our lack of faith?

Do not these words still apply in this case:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (Matt 25:42-45)

The one consistent thing we see in scriptures is people rejecting the servants of the Lord because they are not what they expected or they are not what they want.

I believe that the scriptures teach that there is a responsibility on our part when it comes to servants of the Lord. Our faith, or lack of it, determines their effectiveness and perhaps even their potential. I don't think the relationship is a one-way thing, I think it works both ways. I believe that the story of Moses, Aaron and Hur illustrates this, among many others.

[oneClimbs]

I think the story of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery illustrates the power of mercy over justice.

The woman broke the law, the men there were justified in stoning her. Just as in many ways, we are perfectly justified in picking up stones to cast at church leaders. "And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;...And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;" (D&C 1:25-27)

Pick up that stone, brother.

Remember though that Jesus showed another way. I believe that those men who dropped the stones and walked away were better than most of us. I see an incredible act of humility and understanding. It must have been so hard to let go of those stones, to feel the cold and gritty potential, the control. To drop the stone and allow the judgement to fall into the hands of the Lord.

Whatever their motivations, I see a noble deed worthy of our respect. What was right was more important than being right.

[MJNORTON]

Thanks for this comment...but I have tried to understand it and can't quite grasp what you are saying.
Can you "explain it like I am five" so that I don't misinterpret your post?
Thanks!
Matt

Well guess what? Joseph Smith wasn't supposed to start a church. The end!

The horrible part is that for some of us it has taken a few years to reach the point where we can reconcile THAT idea with the truth of Joseph's mission, the true record of the Book of Mormon, and how to go straight to God instead of men. Hopefully some of us who have learned a little more might be used by the Lord for damage control as this type of thing starts to become known and good members of the church who DIDN'T have years to be deprogrammed need help?! Maybe??

[diligently seeking]

There's this idea that there are only two ways of seeing things. You're either one who is holy all by themselves and has no need for the servants of the Lord or there are the others who don't have a relationship with God at all and think they'll just "follow the prophet" all the way to glory.

I believe that both of these extremes are gross caricatures. I'd like to propose one small example for your consideration. In Matthew chapter 8 we see the miracles that occurred when people came to Jesus, in faith, and were healed or delivered from peril. Note that Jesus gave his apostles the same commission to go and do as he had done. When people came to Jesus, I'm going to suggest that few really understood who he really was, even his apostles didn't really get it until the resurrection. They came to him because of their faith in God.

It was that faith that healed them. He had no form or comeliness that we should desire him, yet some believed and some trusted while others could not help but look for error, mistakes and esteemed him as a fraud at best and a servant of the Devil at worst. This was the Messiah.

Jesus told his apostles that those who reject them, reject him. Those that reject Jesus are rejecting the Father. To sustain doesn't mean to blindly obey, the word sustain means "to keep from falling" which implies that the one you are sustaining is fallible.

Part of life's test is how we respond to servants of the Lord. Do we believe that God can work through flawed instruments? Or do we think we can just go worship God on our little islands? To really understand the priesthood, consider Alma 13 and D&C 121, the priesthood is simply the order which God himself lives that he invites us into.

Part of being his people is the responsibility to utilize his servants properly, not to turn them into idols but to extend our charity and service their way as well. Like Aaron and Hur, they are prime examples of how personal faith, servants of the Lord and the people all succeed together. Other situations like the people demanding a king are examples of how that is abused.

It is a fine line to walk, but so many Saints today seem content to take the easy route and mentally stone the servants of the Lord when the reality is their hands are hanging low, the rod is hanging and Israel is being prevailed upon. Instead of being an Aaron or Hur and rising up to save Israel, they look forward to wiping the slate clean and starting afresh.

That's what the Lord wanted to do once with Moses' people. But Moses fasted 40 days and nights and his faith saved his idolatrous people, he refused to give up on them.

Back to Jesus. I believe that the real power in Matthew chapter 8 is demonstrating how living, breathing servant of the Lord on earth is something that God has given us to exercise our faith. Think of how many people sit idly by waiting for their home teachers and complain when they don't show up.

Why not call them? Why not ask them to come and bless your family? Why not show faith in God by reaching out to another and allowing them to act as a servant of the Lord to bless you? Isn't that what Jesus did with John the Baptist? There is a humility in reaching out to God through another person who is supposed to be his agent. Perhaps there would be greater miracles if more people reached out to their home teachers...they are the closest representatives of the Lord to us.

I suppose they have no form or comeliness that we should desire them. I guess they are idolaters caught up in sports or porn and no blessing could ever be had at their hands. We want "the priesthood" to do miraculous things when Lectures on Faith shows that the mightiest miracles are not done by virtue of the priesthood but by faith. What if that's the point? What if it works the opposite of the way we think it does? What if the miracles don't come from the priesthood down, but by the people as their put their faith in the servants of the Lord? What if that faith coupled with God's servants activates the miracle?

I've done a horrible job at trying to express my point here. I'm hoping the Spirit and an open mind can allow someone to see one or two things a little differently. My point is that we are one, and the hand cannot tell the foot that he has no need of him. We are all in this together. Our obligation is to take care of the body, when the Lord wants to perform surgery or an amputation, that is his business. In the mean time, we have work to do.

Pish posh Bro Steve, you do an excellent job getting your thoughts across. yea verily It resonates as "tongue of angels" stuff for me. keep on keepin on good brother!

[oneClimbs]

Pish posh Bro Steve, you do an excellent job getting your thoughts across. yea verily It resonates as "tongue of angels" stuff for me. keep on keepin on good brother!

I dunno, JB, we have all these wonderful tools for communication, but most of us are not educated enough to express ourselves in the brevity and specificity that this medium demands. It's one thing to understand, it's another to communicate that understanding. I wish I could do better.

[diligently seeking]

I was sincere in my expressions...

[oneClimbs]

I was sincere in my expressions...

Well, I appreciate your kindness, I wasn't doubting you, I was just expressing some frustrations. I should be grateful that we have such blessings to use this technology in the first place.

[Joel]

Good episode:

The First Vision
By DOUG FABRIZIO • MAY 16, 2016



Listen here

Joseph Smith claimed that God and Jesus appeared to him in 1820 to tell him all churches were wrong, which led him to found the Mormon faith. Late LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley once said the Church’s “whole strength rests on the validity of that vision.” Smith told multiple versions over the years though, and critics say discrepancies are proof he made it all up. Monday, we’re talking about the “First Vision,” the role it’s played in Church history and what it reveals about Mormonism today.

Guests:

John Turner is a historian of American religion who teaches at George Mason University in Virginia. He's the author of Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet and a new book The Mormon Jesus: A Biography

Patrick Mason is the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University in California.

Turner and Mason are co-authors of a forthcoming book called Out of Obscurity: Mormonism Since 1945

[diligently seeking]

Have not read previous posts, only a few. Who remembers the power of the experience , at times, on the mission teacing the first vision and having the Spirit ratify? Academic theories etc fall by the way side for me when I think of such experiences etc.