Where Are You On The Political Scale?

[lundbaek]

I wonder, is it only because of wickedness that we have suffered those murderous combinations to get above us ? Or was it due more to laziness, apathy and/or our failure to heed the commandment in D&C 88:79 ?

[freedomforall]

I wonder, is it only because of wickedness that we have suffered those murderous combinations to get above us ? Or was it due more to laziness, apathy and/or our failure to heed the commandment in D&C 88:79 ?

Where are Moroni and the seven million strippling warriors? Maybe they would believe the Declaration of Independence and go and kick out the wicked guards and instill new, good guards, in their place.

Obama said in 2008 "you people haven't been reading your bibles". Let it be said that older Americans didn't read the D.o.I. and heed the counsel to get rid of a tyrannical government.

From the Declaration of Independence:
...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Now we reap the whirlwind and await the cleansing, something that could have been avoided through righteous living and insuring we have good, limited government. It was intended by God that we have a righteous republic.

[marc]

I wonder, is it only because of wickedness that we have suffered those murderous combinations to get above us ? Or was it due more to laziness, apathy and/or our failure to heed the commandment in D&C 88:79 ?

Yes.

[freedomforall]

For anyone willing to read this, we gain insight as to how LDS's are supporting secret combinations and political parties that really seek evil.

This portion is from: The Weighty Matters Of The Law, A Plea for the Latter-day Saints to Awaken
A compilation by Mark E. Hudson 2006

The Saints Support the Secret Combinations

Elder L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in his October 2005 General Conference address spoke about the blessings that come from truly reading and understanding the Book of Mormon. He said:
“Why is the reading of the Book of Mormon so important to us today? It is because the major writers of the Book of Mormon fully understood that their writings were primarily for the people of a future generation rather than for the people of their own generation. Moroni wrote to our generation, “I speak unto you as if ye were present” (Morm. 8:35).

“The Book of Mormon is a voice of warning to this generation. See how vividly it describes conditions on the earth today:
....“And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

“President Ezra Taft Benson reaffirmed the fact that the Book of Mormon is of particular value to our time when he said:
“The Book of Mormon was written for us today. God is the author of the book. It is a record of a fallen people, compiled by inspired men for our blessing today. Those people never had the book—it was meant for us. Mormon, the ancient prophet after whom the book is named, abridged centuries of records. God, who knows the end from the beginning, told him what to include in his abridgment that we would need for our day” (“The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God,” Ensign, May 1975, 63).

“Each time we read the book we should probably ask ourselves: “Why did these writers choose these particular stories or events to include in the record? What value are they for us today?” [Note: Why are secret combinations the fourth most-mentioned topic within the pages of the Book or Mormon?]

“Among the lessons we learn from the Book of Mormon are the cause and effect of war and under what conditions it is justified. It tells of evils and dangers of secret combinations, which are built up to get power and gain over the people. It tells of the reality of Satan and gives an indication of some of the methods he uses.”

Why does Elder Perry mention secret combinations twice? Why does he also mention that the Book of Mormon teaches us “the cause and effect of war and under what conditions it is justified” if we were fighting a justifiable war now in Iraq? There are many who rightfully question the righteousness of the current war. If you read Helaman Chapter 6: 18-22 you will be struck by the following verses. Remember that the Nephites represented members of God’s true Church:

18. ...there were many, even among the Nephites, of Gadianton's band...
21. But behold, Satan did stir up the hearts of the more part of the Nephites, insomuch that they did unite with those bands of robbers, and did enter into their covenants and their oaths...
22. And thus they might commit murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness, contrary to the laws of their country and also the laws of their God.

I don't think that these Nephites were just “useful idiots”- it seems they willfully entered into covenants and oaths with other conspirators.

Also noteworthy, a majority or "more part" of the Nephites were united with the Gadiantons.

How was that possible? Is it possible today among the Saints?

Ezra Taft Benson stated the same thing and paralleled that to our day in stating:
“Secret combinations flourished because, as Helaman tells us, the Gadianton robbers ‘had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils... even as today. ”(Helaman 6:38). (Ezra Taft Benson “The Savior’s Visit to America” May Ensign 1987. p.4.)

Now what does all of this have to do with the Latter-day Saints today? Surely the Gadiantons in this context have nothing to do with the mafia, terrorists, drug cartels or gangs which many Saints falsely interpret the secret combinations to be. The Saints typically aren’t tempted to join any of these evil groups, but they do align themselves with false governmental and political philosophies.

A Word of Warning to the Saints about Their Political Beliefs

From the statements above we know that the Saints in all times have been guilty of building up and upholding secret combinations.

How can we be assured that we are not one of them? How can we be assured that we are not deceived? How can we be assured that we aren’t one of the ones who President Clark warned about, as quoted here by Ezra Taft Benson?

“Yes, within the Church today there are tares among the wheat and wolves within the flock. As President Clark stated, ‘The ravening wolves are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than any others, are clothed with sheep’s clothing because they wear the habiliments of the priesthood.... We should be careful of them...”(EzraTaft Benson, “To the Humble Followers of Christ” Improvement Era June 1969. p.43.)

A great patriot of our nation, President David O. McKay, said back in the 60’s in a letter to the BYU faculty about our trend towards socialism in America and I believe it is still applicable today:
“I cannot help but think that there is a direct relationship between the present evil trends and the very marked tendency of the people of our country to pass onto the state the responsibility for their own moral and economic welfare. This trend to a welfare state in which people look to and worship government more than their God, is certain to sap the individual ambitions and moral fiber of our youth unless they are warned of the consequences. History is replete with the downfall of nations who, instead of assuming their own responsibility...mistakenly attempted to shift their individual responsibility to the government.”

Consider what the Saints overwhelmingly support politically today and compare these things with the words of our Founding Fathers and the Prophets. There is a perception among the members of the LDS Church, that in order to be a ‘good Mormon’ one should vote Republican. It is also commonly felt among the Saints that the precepts of the modern day Democratic Party platform are opposed to what we believe. However, as will be demonstrated below, there is a distinct danger to the Saints in blindly following either major party. The deception comes when the Saints believe that they are “choosing the right” when that choice all along may not be correct or righteous.

Fact: the State of Utah gives President Bush the highest job-approval rating of all of the States in America.
Fact: over 70% of the population in Utah are registered Republican.
Fact: Utah is the most “Republican” state in America.
Fact: Under Bush and the Republicans (with help from the Democrats) our nation is in more debt than ever before in our nations history – over $9 Trillion. As of 2006 the per capita national debt is over $30,000 per man, woman and child. Under Bush and the Republican led Congress more debt has been added to our national debt than under all previous Presidential administrations combined.

In 1997 Gordon B. Hinckley had this to say about our national debt:
“What a dismal station we have reached in this nation where we have borrowed and spent and failed to repay. At the close of 1994, every man, woman, and child in the United States owed as his or her part of the national debt $17,805.64. Think of it. It is a disgrace. It affects all of our monetary policies and all of our commerce. It burdens us with taxes from which there is little or no relief.”

Thomas Jefferson said:
“I deem economy to be one of the first and most important republican virtues and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared.”

We have doubled our national debt since Hinckley said that, largely under supposedly “conservative” political leadership.

Fact: Due to the passage of the USA Patriot Act by politicians from both major parties and with President Bush’s signature, Americans have lost more of their God-given Constitutional liberties than ever before in our nation’s history. This legislation severely threatens the Bill of Rights but especially the 4th Amendment protections. The President alone can now determine who is a terrorist threat. Many Saints support these measures because the President and Congress claim that it is for our safety, but as President Benson quoted: “There used to be a time when the American people roared like lions for liberty, but now they bleat like sheep for security. ”We shouldn’t sacrifice liberty for safety.

President J. Reuben Clark also warned about legislation like the USA Patriot Act:
“Under [God’s] plan the only allegiance we owe as citizens...of the United States, runs to our inspired Constitution which God himself setup....This principle of allegiance to the Constitution is basic to our freedom.
“I wish to say with all the earnestness I possess ....when you see government invading any of these realms of freedom which we have under our Constitution, you will know that they are putting shackles on your liberty, and that tyranny is creeping upon you, no matter who curtails these liberties or who invades these realms, and no matter what the reason and excuse therefore may be. ”(The Improvement Era, July 1940)

Have we heeded that warning? Do we support in any way any legislation which, in its remotest effect, would endanger our God-given liberties? Tyranny is creeping upon us.

Fact: Utah gave President Bush and the Republicans the highest percentage of victory in the 2004 Presidential election out of the entire country. This was clearly a vote in support of the Un-constitutional War in Iraq and the perpetual ‘War on Terror’ in general. This also shows LDS support for the expansion of the welfare state and the attack on our liberties through legislation like the Patriot Act. In fact many Latter-day Saints come out in fervent support of our nation’s current foreign policy. Many Saints even believe that we should be spreading “democracy” through force around the world because it is “for their own good”.

While this may show good intentions, it doesn’t mesh with proper Constitutional principles. It has been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Have the Saints considered the words of our Prophets concerning proper U.S. foreign policy as well as their warnings against worshipping the false gods of war?

President Benson stated:
“There is one and only one legitimate goal of United States foreign policy. It is a narrow goal, a nationalistic goal: the preservation of our national independence. Nothing in the Constitution grants that the president shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader.... Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the president of the
United States or Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to ‘uplift’ their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their people, or even defend them against their enemies.”(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 614;pp.682 & 704)

And President Spencer W. Kimball stated in his 1976 talk The False Gods We Worship:
“When I review the performance of this people.....I am appalled and frightened.....We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel – ships, planes, missiles, fortifications – and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become anti-enemy instead of pro-Kingdom of God; we train man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching: ‘Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven’.”

The scriptures are filled with verses discussing the wicked nature of offensive, pre-emptive war and the evil of “going out” to battle. (See 3 Nephi 3: 17-21, D&C 98:33, 3 Nephi 2:12, D&C 98:16-8, Mormon 3:10,14-15,etc..)

This is what President Gordon B. Hinckley said in the context of the current war in Iraq:
“War, of course, is not new. The weapons change. The ability to kill and destroy is constantly refined. But there has been conflict throughout the ages over essentially the same issues....

“Isaiah speaks further concerning that great conflict (see Isa. 14:12–20). Modern revelation gives additional light (see D&C 76:25–29), as does the book of Moses (see Moses 4:1–4), which tells of Satan’s plan to destroy the agency of man....

[Note: the War on Terror seems to be a war on our liberties more than anything.]

“We sometimes are prone to glorify the great empires of the past, such as the Ottoman Empire, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, and in more recent times, the vast British Empire. But there is a darker side to every one oft hem. There is a grim and tragic overlay of brutal conquest, of subjugation, of repression, and an astronomical cost in life and treasure...

“But modern revelation states that we are to “renounce war and proclaim peace.”(D&C 98:16).....[end of Hinckley quote]

Are we truly fighting for “a better cause” as the Book of Mormon says? Are we truly defending our own homes, lives, families and liberties over in Iraq? Did Iraq attack America? In the Book of Mormon the righteous Nephites never “went out” to battle but only fought to defend the borders of their own lands. When the Nephites did venture out in offensive war they were always defeated.

Fact: Under President Bush and the Republicans the federal government and taxpayer funded welfare entitlements have grown more than at any other time in our nation’s history. Far more people are dependent upon the Government for some benefit than at any other time in our history.

Fact: The National Republican Party Platform from 2004 says the following:
“Republicans applaud President Bush for launching groundbreaking efforts to address the needs and hopes of the world’s poor, cutting across traditional boundaries to focus on what works....

“Republicans believe that a world where some live in comfort and plenty, while half of the human race lives on less than $2 a day, is neither just nor stable. We applaud President Bush and the Republican Congress for their leadership and moral clarity in making the inclusion of all of the world’s poor in an expanding circle of development –and opportunity – one of the top priorities of U.S. international policy....

“Decades of massive development assistance have failed to spur economic growth in the poorest countries....

“Where governments have implemented real policy changes, we will provide significant new levels of assistance. The United States and other developed countries should set an ambitious and specific target: to double the size of the world’s poorest economies within a decade.” [end of excerpt from Republican Platform]

Contrast those words with the words of our Prophets. Again, remember these words uttered by a Prophet of God:
“Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the president of the United States or Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to ‘uplift’ their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their people, or even defend them against their enemies.”(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 614; pp. 682 & 704)

I also highly encourage you to locate Elder Dallin H. Oaks’ entire talk from October 2003 General Conference entitled Repentance and Change to see where the Lord stands on government entitlements and programs established to bring equality to the people. Here is just part of what he said:
“The traditions or culture or way of life of a people inevitably include some practices that must be changed by those who wish to qualify for God’s choicest blessings....

“In these examples I am not contrasting the culture or traditions of one part of the world with another. I am contrasting the Lord’s way with the world’s way—the culture of the gospel of Jesus Christ with the culture or traditions of every nation or people....

“There is a unique gospel culture, a set of values and expectations and practices common to all members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This gospel way of life comes from the plan of salvation, the commandments of God, and the teachings of the living prophets. It is given expression in the way we raise our families and live our individual lives.... This requires us to make some changes from our family culture, our ethnic culture, or our national culture. We must change all elements of our behavior that are in conflict with gospel commandments, covenants, and culture....

“The gospel plan is based on individual responsibility.... This requirement of individual responsibility, which has many expressions in our doctrine, is in sharp contrast to Satan’s plan to “redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost .” (Moses 4:1). The plan of the Father and the Savior is based on individual choice and individual effort.

“...We live in a world where there are large differences in income and material possessions and where there are many public and private efforts to narrow these differences. The followers of the Savior are commanded to give to the poor, and many do. But some gifts have promoted a culture of dependency, reducing their recipients’ need for earthly food or shelter but impoverishing them in their eternal need for individual growth. The growth required by the gospel plan only occurs in a culture of individual effort and responsibility. It cannot occur in a culture of dependency. Whatever causes us to be dependent on someone else for decisions or resources we could provide for ourselves weakens us spiritually and retards our growth toward what the gospel plan intends us to be.” [End of Dallin H. Oaks’ quote]

Also consider this statement from President Ezra Taft Benson:
"When government presumes to demand more and more of the fruits of men's labor through taxation, and reduces more and more its actual income by printing money and furthering debt, the wage earner is left with less and less to buy food, to provide housing, medical care, education, and private welfare. Individuals are then left without a choice, and must look to the state as benevolent supporter. When that happens, liberty is gone!"

Are we, through our votes or our party loyalty, supporting candidates who support “the culture of dependency” or socialism? Have we supported the taking away of our freedoms in exchange for safety? Are we failing the test?

This is what Heber. C Kimball said of the Saints:
"Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills . . .but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God. Then is the time to look out for The great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming."
(Heber C. Kimball, 1856. Quoted by J. Golden Kimball, Conf. Report, Oct 1930,pp. 59-60.)

[aeon]

Apolitical

[abelchirino]

Why does the scale have to be based on political parties? Isn't that partly what got us in this mess? Why not make a scale based on principle? A scale based on the power of the state and the freedom of the individual? A scale based on what the Lord has revealed in the holy scriptures with regards to society and sound government? I like the response given by both BrianM and coachmarc.

[buffalo_girl]

Why does the scale have to be based on political parties? Isn't that partly what got us in this mess? Why not make a scale based on principle? A scale based on the power of the state and the freedom of the individual? A scale based on what the Lord has revealed in the holy scriptures with regards to society and sound government? I like the response given by both BrianM and coachmarc.

Your question regarding 'parties' was answered by George Washington on the occasion of his Farewell Address:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Washingto ... ll_Address" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

20 I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the state, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally.

21 This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

22 The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

23 Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

24 It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

25 There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.

[KMCopeland]

Problem with the poll: There's what we think we are, and then there's what we actually are. I bet if you gave bullet points for each of the choices, meaning "this is what a (red-state Repubican, Rino, Liberal, Libertarian etc. believes so please choose accordingly"), what people choose to call themselves would change significantly.

Or not.

[freedomforall]

Problem with the poll: There's what we think we are, and then there's what we actually are. I bet if you gave bullet points for each of the choices, meaning "this is what a (red-state Repubican, Rino, Liberal, Libertarian etc. believes so please choose accordingly"), what people choose to call themselves would change significantly.

Or not.

God doesn't want us to be of any party. He tells us in scripture what he expects us to do. It is to vote for a candidate that is honest, wise and good. Both parties are basically one party after the same thing. They only argue and fight to gain votes one way or another. The far left and the far right want government to have complete control over the people. Great examples are going on right now. Obamacare and amnesty for illegal immigrants. One would think that since the GOP has gotten control of the house that these things would have been thrown out. Americans know these issues are against the Constitution, yet they have no backbone to rectify the problem no matter what party is in control. I hear that another LDS is considering running for POTUS...we'll see.

[buffalo_girl]

I'm becoming increasingly cynical about those who put themselves in front of the 'public' in order to push along political agendas - as though that is what the 'public' wants or has anything remotely to do with the Principles of Liberty upon which this Nation was founded.

At the same time, I'm not sure the 'public' knows what it wants, or even cares, for that matter so long as it is ENTERTAINED.

One person I heard interviewed during the last presidential election confessed he was disillusioned with the Democratic Party's political trajectory, but after trying very hard to make some sense out of the Republican National Convention came away shaking his head over what he had witnessed. "I felt I was at a circus clown convention!"

I have to agree with a statement made by a main character in the Monk tv series:

"I NEVER vote. It only encourages them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08wVJETF7wY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You will find that quote in the above linked Season 1, Episode 1 2...

[therockpile]

I assume that this is "where Are You on the Political Scale as it Relates to National Politics?" for me I'm mostly a Libertarian / constitutionalist /Joel Skousen type. then I go down and to the right for state and local stuff but each year I become a bit more Libertarian exp. after spending time writing a constitution and studying the principles it should be based on like the Fundamental rights of man,Natural law, and wrestling with the basics of Justice, Power, Authority, Freedom, responsibility,accountability, etc. Then examining it in light of the many years of abuses and usurpations we have had with our own.

[bobhenstra]

=)) And I was banned for pointing out that liberals and libertarians were simply the same except for spelling! I had the guts to damn all paulistas! :)) =))

[KMCopeland]

God doesn't want us to be of any party.

I don't think that's true. I don't think he minds at all.

He tells us in scripture what he expects us to do. It is to vote for a candidate that is honest, wise and good.

Where does he tell us that?

The far left and the far right want government to have complete control over the people.

That is simply not true.

Great examples are going on right now. Obamacare and amnesty for illegal immigrants.

Those are very bad examples of complete government control.

One would think that since the GOP has gotten control of the house that these things would have been thrown out.

Far be it from me to defend that pack of losers, but they only got control a few weeks ago.

Americans know these issues are against the Constitution, yet they have no backbone to rectify the problem no matter what party is in control.

Americans don't know any such thing. You should probably speak for yourself.

I hear that another LDS is considering running for POTUS...we'll see.

I guess we will.

[Bee Prepared]

I think concervatives and libertarians should unite, we need to win this election! 3rd party candidates are spoilers to the election.

Libertarians and conservatives agree on the most important issues and only disagree on unimportant social issues. It's the constant quibble about social issues that has weakened us. There is a bigger picture. If we don't pull together this country will be socialist. ( or already is.)

An alliance of the two is more important than their differences.

[marc]

Where does he tell us that?

D&C 98:4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.

12 For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith.

13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.

14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.

15 For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.

16 Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children...

23 Now, I speak unto you concerning your families—if men will smite you, or your families, once, and ye bear it patiently and revile not against them, neither seek revenge, ye shall be rewarded;

24 But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you.

25 And again, if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an hundred-fold.

26 And again, if he shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four-fold;

27 And these three testimonies shall stand against your enemy if he repent not, and shall not be blotted out.

28 And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall see to it that ye warn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, neither upon your family, even your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.

29 And then, if he shall come upon you or your children, or your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation, I have delivered thine enemy into thine hands;

30 And then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy righteousness; and also thy children and thy children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.

31 Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified.

32 Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles.

33 And again, this is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them.

34 And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of peace unto that people, nation, or tongue;

35 And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

36 Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them in going out to battle against that nation, tongue, or people.

37 And I, the Lord, would fight their battles, and their children’s battles, and their children’s children’s, until they had avenged themselves on all their enemies, to the third and fourth generation.

38 Behold, this is an ensample unto all people, saith the Lord your God, for justification before me...

[SmallFarm]

I think concervatives and libertarians should unite, we need to win this election! 3rd party candidates are spoilers to the election.

Libertarians and conservatives agree on the most important issues and only disagree on unimportant social issues. It's the constant quibble about social issues that has weakened us. There is a bigger picture. If we don't pull together this country will be socialist. ( or already is.)

An alliance of the two is more important than their differences.

Would "conservatives" agree to forsake war?

[Bee Prepared]

I think concervatives and libertarians should unite, we need to win this election! 3rd party candidates are spoilers to the election.

Libertarians and conservatives agree on the most important issues and only disagree on unimportant social issues. It's the constant quibble about social issues that has weakened us. There is a bigger picture. If we don't pull together this country will be socialist. ( or already is.)

An alliance of the two is more important than their differences.

Would "conservatives" agree to forsake war?

A strong military would help keep us from going to war.

[bobhenstra]

Conservatives believe in a strong defense, libertarians believe in free pot, to hell with defense! No way we combine! Libertarians are already liberal, they're just lying about it!

Bob

[creator]

I think concervatives and libertarians should unite, we need to win this election! 3rd party candidates are spoilers to the election. ... If we don't pull together this country will be socialist. ( or already is.)

An alliance of the two is more important than their differences.

Perhaps you've missed the fact that the Republicans and Democrats already have an alliance towards furthering socialism in this country. Whether a Republican or Democrat is President socialism increases.

[ajax]

I think concervatives and libertarians should unite, we need to win this election! 3rd party candidates are spoilers to the election.

Libertarians and conservatives agree on the most important issues and only disagree on unimportant social issues. It's the constant quibble about social issues that has weakened us. There is a bigger picture. If we don't pull together this country will be socialist. ( or already is.)

An alliance of the two is more important than their differences.

Would "conservatives" agree to forsake war?

A strong military would help keep us from going to war.

It appears to have accomplished the opposite.

[ajax]

libertarians believe in free pot

Oh come now Bob. Libertarians believe pot should be legalized and bought and sold in the marketplace, not given away for free.

[KMCopeland]

A strong military would help keep us from going to war.

Good theory. The thing is, we have a strong military. A very strong one. And since the fall of the Soviet Union, which was the only military in the world who would have had a prayer of defeating us, we're stronger militarily than ever, and we've gone to war more enthusiastically than ever.


I think universal conscription is the best way to keep us from going to war. Everybody serves. If that were the case, the people who decide whether or not to go to war will have a child, a spouse -- at least one someone they care about -- who will be in harm's way, and they will think a little bit harder about the wars they think would be so fun to fight when they're sure nobody they care about will be fighting it.

Bring back the draft, remove all but a few exemptions, and you'll see the number of wars this country gets involved in go down dramatically.

[jbalm]

The draft is slavery.

[KMCopeland]

The draft is slavery.

Parts of it sort of resemble slavery. It would be nice if we could eliminate everything bad from everything. If a draft prevented war, which would save millions of lives, halt the terrorism-producing rage against us that our unprovoked invasions/occupations of countries that haven't touched us breeds, thereby making the world a safer, better place for everybody -- by counter-intuitively preventing war, I think we could live with a little well-regulated, patriotic slavery.

[KMCopeland]

I wonder, is it only because of wickedness that we have suffered those murderous combinations to get above us ? Or was it due more to laziness, apathy and/or our failure to heed the commandment in D&C 88:79 ?

Where are Moroni and the seven million strippling warriors?

Somewhere in history thousands of years ago.

Obama said in 2008 "you people haven't been reading your bibles". Let it be said that older Americans didn't read the D.o.I. and heed the counsel to get rid of a tyrannical government.

From the Declaration of Independence:
...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Now we reap the whirlwind and await the cleansing, something that could have been avoided through righteous living and insuring we have good, limited government.

Obama has shrunken the size of the government dramatically.

It was intended by God that we have a righteous republic.

Many people believe we have that. I know you don't -- I can read after all. But you could be wrong.