LDS Freedom Forum

Hi, this is an honest question; and not an attempt to be tricky, snarky or devious. I am hearing about more and more people looking into his movement.

What is the appeal of Denver Snuffer; and his ideas?

Have the people who have joined his movement already mentally left the LDS Church and are just finding another boat to ride; or are they actually satisfied with the LDS Church and Snuffer's message/persona is so strong that they are willing to leave the Church?

For those who have mentally left the LDS Chruch; why do most of them still try to be part of the LDS Church; why the wordsmithing in Temple Recommend interviews so that they can keep their recommends when they know they don't support the brethren as apostles etc.

Have some folks who have joined actually have an "angel" come down and say he is Christ and that they should leave the LDS Church? (I am not talking about Denver; but the folks who follow him).

Is there a polygamy aspect to the new movement?

I am honestly curious. I have read many of Denver's postings on his Blog and don't see the appeal. I am not looking for another boat so to speak just intellectually curious about the movements appeal.

In my humble opinion if you have read his work ( ie read it and pondered over it) and don't understand its appeal no amount of reading what a third party has to say will do any good. Incidentally I had not left the church when I began reading the Second Comforter ( was serving as HP group leader) and now having read literally everything he has written and listened to all of his numerous talks I remain active and continue serving as a temple worker and the oldest scoutmaster in the church. You should be much more careful about the erroneous assumptions you make about others.

Bill wrote:Hi, this is an honest question; and not an attempt to be tricky, snarky or devious. I am hearing about more and more people looking into his movement.

What is the appeal of Denver Snuffer; and his ideas?

Have the people who have joined his movement already mentally left the LDS Church and are just finding another boat to ride; or are they actually satisfied with the LDS Church and Snuffer's message/persona is so strong that they are willing to leave the Church?

For those who have mentally left the LDS Chruch; why do most of them still try to be part of the LDS Church; why the wordsmithing in Temple Recommend interviews so that they can keep their recommends when they know they don't support the brethren as apostles etc.

Have some folks who have joined actually have an "angel" come down and say he is Christ and that they should leave the LDS Church? (I am not talking about Denver; but the folks who follow him).

Is there a polygamy aspect to the new movement?

I am honestly curious. I have read many of Denver's postings on his Blog and don't see the appeal. I am not looking for another boat so to speak just intellectually curious about the movements appeal.

I can only answer for myself. For me, long before I heard of Denver, I was being filled with gospel truths through the Spirit that were both wonderful and beyond the accepted scope of the LDS church. He only acted as one tool of many that the Lord used to help me learn new truths. I don't bother to read much that he has written anymore but I did attend all of his talks and would any future events he did because my friends were all attend as well.

I am no longer a member of the LDS church. However, long before I left I struggled with temple recommend interviews and things like that because I still had vestiges of my upbringing ingrained in me. It was very hard to completely let go of my belief in the need to attend church and attend the temple. Though I am content now with being separated from those things, I will never completely let go of my LDS past. I love the members of the LDS church more than others because I understand them.

I didn't see an angel that told me to leave the church. I never intended to leave at all. I just was no longer allowed to do very much within the church and so found myself occupying myself with other opportunities and with other people who were willing to let me serve no matter what I believed. One day I just woke up to the fact that I wasn't planning on ever going back.

Denver has personally denounced the practice of polygamy and has asked those in polygamous marriages who wish to join Zion to stop taking any additional wives. He has asked them not to break up their families but to end the practice by teaching their children not to engage in it.

boo wrote:In my humble opinion if you have read his work ( ie read it and pondered over it) and don't understand its appeal no amount of reading what a third party has to say will do any good. Incidentally I had not left the church when I began reading the Second Comforter ( was serving as HP group leader) and now having read literally everything he has written and listened to all of his numerous talks I remain active and continue serving as a temple worker and the oldest scoutmaster in the church. You should be much more careful about the erroneous assumptions you make about others.

Boo, I think we ought to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. The only way to clear up erroneous assumptions is to ask which is what he is doing. He began by saying it was an honest inquiry. We can't help him if we don't believe him.

"I've seen Christ, so can you".

"I need something more from the church".

A reason to disaffect with the church (DS version of history, which he said the book didn't claim to be true.)

Interpret scriptures your own way.

Only a few will make it.

If you don't see Christ in the flesh, you get the Telestial kingdom.

Leaders practice improper dominion.

Joseph did not practice polygamy, just sealings.

3 hour block is a waste of time.

Church took LOF out of D&C.

boo wrote:In my humble opinion if you have read his work ( ie read it and pondered over it) and don't understand its appeal no amount of reading what a third party has to say will do any good. Incidentally I had not left the church when I began reading the Second Comforter ( was serving as HP group leader) and now having read literally everything he has written and listened to all of his numerous talks I remain active and continue serving as a temple worker and the oldest scoutmaster in the church. You should be much more careful about the erroneous assumptions you make about others.

Boo, in this thread I am not arguing for or against. In other threads the question was whether Denver is right or wrong etc. which can be argued.

In this thread I just want to know what the appeal is, so I shutup and listen. Not so much the doctrine but the emotional appeal; which are related of course.

What 'erroneous' assumptions did I make in my opening? Each of the things I mentioned I have heard are part of the movement, with the exception of polygamy, which was someone's prediction. Which is why I asked, not accuse.

No emotional appeal. He has delivered a message that I feel is truth. That's it. It is really nothing more than an appeal to the scriptures. It resonated with me.

He has not told anyone to leave the church. He has encouraged people to stay. I wasn't looking for a way out. I would still be in if it wasn't for a dream I had. So I guess I can now say, "I'm living the dream" ;) But it's not that fun to be honest.

As far as movements, I know of no movement he leads. Never met him. Never seen him. Never will.

Like ajax, the way he opens the scriptures has resonated with me. I feel lots of his message is truth and I have felt that way since I started reading his stuff about 4 or 5 years ago. However, I don't agree with everything he has said. I have no intention or desire to leave the church and am still active. I don't lie to get a temple recommend, but I realize there may come a day when I will no longer be able to reconcile what I feel in my heart and what the church considers worthiness. I'll cross that bridge if / when I come to it. In the mean time, I seek truth wherever it can be found and seek to be more like the Savior (although failing miserably). The church, the temple, Denver's message, the message of others are all only vehicles. They aren't an end unto themselves. What these vehicles encourage and help us to become is what matters. I try to seek out those vehicles which will lead me closer to my Savior and I wholeheartedly agree with AofF 13 that "anything virtuous, lovely, of good report, praiseworthy" should be sought after. DS has delivered a message that aligns with those values for me.

Bill wrote:

boo wrote:In my humble opinion if you have read his work ( ie read it and pondered over it) and don't understand its appeal no amount of reading what a third party has to say will do any good. Incidentally I had not left the church when I began reading the Second Comforter ( was serving as HP group leader) and now having read literally everything he has written and listened to all of his numerous talks I remain active and continue serving as a temple worker and the oldest scoutmaster in the church. You should be much more careful about the erroneous assumptions you make about others.

Boo, in this thread I am not arguing for or against. In other threads the question was whether Denver is right or wrong etc. which can be argued.

In this thread I just want to know what the appeal is, so I shutup and listen. Not so much the doctrine but the emotional appeal; which are related of course.

What 'erroneous' assumptions did I make in my opening? Each of the things I mentioned I have heard are part of the movement, with the exception of polygamy, which was someone's prediction. Which is why I asked, not accuse.

Perhaps i misunderstood you but look at your 3rd paragraph carefully. You seem to divide everyone who gives credence to D Snuffer into one of 2 groups .The first are those who had already at some level left the church and he was a convenient vehicle to do so or those who left because of what he said or taught. That does not accurately describe most of the people I interact with who think he has inspired insights into the Lords message for the latter days. It doesn't even describe a number of the most frequent posters on this forum. Thus if I correctly read your 3rd paragraph I think your assumption is erroneous. If I misunderstood the content of your 3rd paragraph please correct me.

sen6b wrote:He may not be "leading" a movement, but he has Definitely suggested it, and i would even say encouraged it. Just because he isn't building churches and temples doesn't mean there isn't a movement. I've seen posts on here that people have made seeking others in their areas to form these "communities" where did they get the idea from? Did they just make that up?

I think the Church has caused a movement, Denver has just suggested a way for it to be handled. Denver encouraged, and the last I heard, still encourages people to remain in the Church if they are happy fellowshipping there. However, there are MANY that the Church has removed from its ranks by excommunication, removal of recommends etc, they need a home, people to meet with. So there is a movement, but it was not sparked by Denver. He only provided a solution.

The 007 community might have some potential.

sen6b wrote:

theBruceGuy wrote:

sen6b wrote:He may not be "leading" a movement, but he has Definitely suggested it, and i would even say encouraged it. Just because he isn't building churches and temples doesn't mean there isn't a movement. I've seen posts on here that people have made seeking others in their areas to form these "communities" where did they get the idea from? Did they just make that up?

I think the Church has caused a movement, Denver has just suggested a way for it to be handled. Denver encouraged, and the last I heard, still encourages people to remain in the Church if they are happy fellowshipping there. However, there are MANY that the Church has removed from its ranks by excommunication, removal of recommends etc, they need a home, people to meet with. So there is a movement, but it was not sparked by Denver. He only provided a solution.

My father in law has been ex'd twice you don't see him doing anything like that. It kind of reminds me of gang recruitment how they seek out kids who are young and vulnerable maybe have little to no family support. Is it possible that ds is appealing to a certain group of people that he knows will likely be more susceptible to listening to him? Especially those who have beef with the church? And of course he tells people to stay if they still happy....He is a lawyer...he's smart...he chooses his words wisely.

I never had a beef with the church, nor was I planning on leaving.

sen6b wrote:You don't have a problem with the mall or tithing or anything like that?

Annoying, but I was planning on staying. In fact I was fighting my wife about it for a period, defending the Church's stance.

I was searching for the real second comforter and Denver Snuffer was the one that seemed to have the most info, I have since read all his stuff and have not liked his lectures or his last few books to arrogant, by their fruits ye shall know them and he is no longer producing good fruit, sorry guys.

Whether you share Denver's views or not is not the issue, the issue is that each one of us needs to stand for ourselves and connect with heaven, to know Christ and to know the Father.

It is really simple, Nephi sums is up in 2 Nephi 31 & 32. D&C 93:1 means something to me also, I take the scriptures literally as Joseph did with James 1:5.

I see no reason why I need to wait to repent, wait to the day of judgement to know my standing before God, in fact I would rather know now while I can still make those changes needed, for at that hour the time is passed.

The appeal to Denver Snuffer is his love for Christ, the Holy Scriptures and the fact his views are not new to me. I was not awaken by his book or books, he has expounded much - he hasn't revealed new truths or anything that I have not already been seeking but has helped me to better understand some of the words of Christ - by teaching Christ's words and teaching by the power of the spirit. Any man or any woman who loves Christ like this, who teaches of Christ, who testifies of Christ I esteem my brother or sister and love them. I have grown to share these same views, self taught by the spirit since I was very young having first read the Book of Mormon when I was 9. Having believed upon the words of Joseph, and I did study. What I learned in seminary, some of it seemed to contradict the scriptures - which caused me to study more. For me Denver is a kindred spirit, who only seeks to please God - whether imperfect or not matters not because like him... I seek to only follow Christ.

Comments like: His book doesn't claim to be true... so its not true, who cares. Cliche's are just that, cliche's. The Book of Mormon is fiction by many peoples standard today, there are more people who say it is a load of crap than there are those who say it is inspired. Does it make it any less true? Wide is the gate that leads to hell and narrow the way that leads to eternal life and FEW there be that find it.

The Church does not control God, His Priesthood, leaders are to be servants, the power is in the people... each one of us by vote chose to accept Christ and come to this earth, God esteemed our own worth that he brought these issues to each one of us to decide for ourselves.

Makes no sense why God called Joseph Smith at 14... and not the President of the United States at that time, who potentially could have had a much more profound affect in establishing His gospel. He chooses people like Denver, you and me to be His messengers... why? Because it requires real faith for you to believe, and obscure uneducated, not popular 14 year old scruffy boy establishing a religion claiming he saw God is more believable than a man in Utah who believes Joseph words literally and likewise saw God, is a strange concept for Mormons - which is hard to believe.

How have the Mormons become like this is beyond me... what you say, only a few of us goto heaven is what Denver teaches. All you have to do is believe, grace is enough.. works don't matter... just accept Jesus in your heart and you will be raised up at the last day is what many of you are starting to sound like.

God's revelations in Acts 2:17 has no place or room in the LDS Church at its present condition. Only the Prophet can speak for God, prophesy and declare revelations.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Those sons, and daughters will be ex'd if they prophesy in the name of God... but it is Him who has poured out His spirit upon them, it is Him who commands us - it is Him who decides to whom should declare His word, even from the mouth of babes or a donkey shall the Lord call to us to repent.

Reject Denver that is fine, reject the message and there in lies the problem... the message is no different than what we read in the scriptures - it is no wonder why he does not appeal to many of the members of this Church, the scriptures likewise do not appeal to many of the members either.

Your words mean nothing once you bring the spirit of contention and that is exactly what Denver has done, I wish the others well but it says in the Last Days even the very Elect would be lead away, wow I really see this happening now.

@BMC

The ride was good until the book that doesn't claim it is true came out, and ya'll decided you didn't like the church and leaders any longer.

At least for me, that has been the issue.

BMC wrote:Whether you share Denver's views or not is not the issue, the issue is that each one of us needs to stand for ourselves and connect with heaven, to know Christ and to know the Father.

It is really simple, Nephi sums is up in 2 Nephi 31 & 32. D&C 93:1 means something to me also, I take the scriptures literally as Joseph did with James 1:5.

I see no reason why I need to wait to repent, wait to the day of judgement to know my standing before God, in fact I would rather know now while I can still make those changes needed, for at that hour the time is passed.

The appeal to Denver Snuffer is his love for Christ, the Holy Scriptures and the fact his views are not new to me. I was not awaken by his book or books, he has expounded much - he hasn't revealed new truths or anything that I have not already been seeking but has helped me to better understand some of the words of Christ - by teaching Christ's words and teaching by the power of the spirit. Any man or any woman who loves Christ like this, who teaches of Christ, who testifies of Christ I esteem my brother or sister and love them. I have grown to share these same views, self taught by the spirit since I was very young having first read the Book of Mormon when I was 9. Having believed upon the words of Joseph, and I did study. What I learned in seminary, some of it seemed to contradict the scriptures - which caused me to study more. For me Denver is a kindred spirit, who only seeks to please God - whether imperfect or not matters not because like him... I seek to only follow Christ.

Comments like: His book doesn't claim to be true... so its not true, who cares. Cliche's are just that, cliche's. The Book of Mormon is fiction by many peoples standard today, there are more people who say it is a load of crap than there are those who say it is inspired. Does it make it any less true? Wide is the gate that leads to hell and narrow the way that leads to eternal life and FEW there be that find it.

The Church does not control God, His Priesthood, leaders are to be servants, the power is in the people... each one of us by vote chose to accept Christ and come to this earth, God esteemed our own worth that he brought these issues to each one of us to decide for ourselves.

Makes no sense why God called Joseph Smith at 14... and not the President of the United States at that time, who potentially could have had a much more profound affect in establishing His gospel. He chooses people like Denver, you and me to be His messengers... why? Because it requires real faith for you to believe, and obscure uneducated, not popular 14 year old scruffy boy establishing a religion claiming he saw God is more believable than a man in Utah who believes Joseph words literally and likewise saw God, is a strange concept for Mormons - which is hard to believe.

How have the Mormons become like this is beyond me... what you say, only a few of us goto heaven is what Denver teaches. All you have to do is believe, grace is enough.. works don't matter... just accept Jesus in your heart and you will be raised up at the last day is what many of you are starting to sound like.

God's revelations in Acts 2:17 has no place or room in the LDS Church at its present condition. Only the Prophet can speak for God, prophesy and declare revelations.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Those sons, and daughters will be ex'd if they prophesy in the name of God... but it is Him who has poured out His spirit upon them, it is Him who commands us - it is Him who decides to whom should declare His word, even from the mouth of babes or a donkey shall the Lord call to us to repent.

Reject Denver that is fine, reject the message and there in lies the problem... the message is no different than what we read in the scriptures - it is no wonder why he does not appeal to many of the members of this Church, the scriptures likewise do not appeal to many of the members either.

^^^ THIS ^^^

rewcox wrote:@BMC

The ride was good until the book that doesn't claim it is true came out, and ya'll decided you didn't like the church and leaders any longer.

At least for me, that has been the issue.

Please provide Denver's quote in full.

I like the leaders and I like the church. I don't care much for traditions and teachings I don't believe in. But that doesn't mean we're enemies.

BMC wrote:Whether you share Denver's views or not is not the issue, the issue is that each one of us needs to stand for ourselves and connect with heaven, to know Christ and to know the Father.

It is really simple, Nephi sums is up in 2 Nephi 31 & 32. D&C 93:1 means something to me also, I take the scriptures literally as Joseph did with James 1:5.

I see no reason why I need to wait to repent, wait to the day of judgement to know my standing before God, in fact I would rather know now while I can still make those changes needed, for at that hour the time is passed.

The appeal to Denver Snuffer is his love for Christ, the Holy Scriptures and the fact his views are not new to me. I was not awaken by his book or books, he has expounded much - he hasn't revealed new truths or anything that I have not already been seeking but has helped me to better understand some of the words of Christ - by teaching Christ's words and teaching by the power of the spirit. Any man or any woman who loves Christ like this, who teaches of Christ, who testifies of Christ I esteem my brother or sister and love them. I have grown to share these same views, self taught by the spirit since I was very young having first read the Book of Mormon when I was 9. Having believed upon the words of Joseph, and I did study. What I learned in seminary, some of it seemed to contradict the scriptures - which caused me to study more. For me Denver is a kindred spirit, who only seeks to please God - whether imperfect or not matters not because like him... I seek to only follow Christ.

Comments like: His book doesn't claim to be true... so its not true, who cares. Cliche's are just that, cliche's. The Book of Mormon is fiction by many peoples standard today, there are more people who say it is a load of crap than there are those who say it is inspired. Does it make it any less true? Wide is the gate that leads to hell and narrow the way that leads to eternal life and FEW there be that find it.

The Church does not control God, His Priesthood, leaders are to be servants, the power is in the people... each one of us by vote chose to accept Christ and come to this earth, God esteemed our own worth that he brought these issues to each one of us to decide for ourselves.

Makes no sense why God called Joseph Smith at 14... and not the President of the United States at that time, who potentially could have had a much more profound affect in establishing His gospel. He chooses people like Denver, you and me to be His messengers... why? Because it requires real faith for you to believe, and obscure uneducated, not popular 14 year old scruffy boy establishing a religion claiming he saw God is more believable than a man in Utah who believes Joseph words literally and likewise saw God, is a strange concept for Mormons - which is hard to believe.

How have the Mormons become like this is beyond me... what you say, only a few of us goto heaven is what Denver teaches. All you have to do is believe, grace is enough.. works don't matter... just accept Jesus in your heart and you will be raised up at the last day is what many of you are starting to sound like.

God's revelations in Acts 2:17 has no place or room in the LDS Church at its present condition. Only the Prophet can speak for God, prophesy and declare revelations.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Those sons, and daughters will be ex'd if they prophesy in the name of God... but it is Him who has poured out His spirit upon them, it is Him who commands us - it is Him who decides to whom should declare His word, even from the mouth of babes or a donkey shall the Lord call to us to repent.

Reject Denver that is fine, reject the message and there in lies the problem... the message is no different than what we read in the scriptures - it is no wonder why he does not appeal to many of the members of this Church, the scriptures likewise do not appeal to many of the members either.

Mathew 7:15

I don't post on here very often but my DS experience is rather atypical, I think, so it might be worth sharing.

I'm a recent convert, only been a member since last February, but attended meetings for a year or so prior to being baptized. I read Second Comforter prior to becoming a member after hearing about it on a podcast (had never heard of DS before), and it actually helped encourage me in my decision to join the church (along with many other things). It suggested a depth of spiritual experience within the context of the Mormon faith that I hadn't encountered before and it was really attractive to me.

Later I read PTHG and realized that it was an entirely different sort of book. It dealt with historical issues that I had already been around the block with and although I found the book interesting, it didn't affect my faith or my decision to get baptized. I was disturbed, though, when I heard that DS had been ex'ed. The whole excommunication thing strikes me as very un-Christlike, and although I understand the institutional necessity of the procedure, it violates my liberal sensibilities.

I'm reading the ten talks right now and there is a decidedly arrogant, superior tone surrounding them that I don't like. I don't consider him any kind of a prophet but in some of what I've read, he seems to be assuming the prophetic mantle. His admonitions to stay in the Church if you are happy in it sound good but in the context of everything else he says, it's like he's saying, "yeah, go ahead and stay on the sinking ship if that's what floats your boat."

His earlier writings are very different and focus on spirituality and I find them very uplifting. I read Catholic and Buddhist spiritual writings also and find benefit in them.

Curious Workman wrote: I'm reading the ten talks right now and there is a decidedly arrogant, superior tone surrounding them that I don't like. I don't consider him any kind of a prophet but in some of what I've read, he seems to be assuming the prophetic mantle.

I get this. A lot of Josephs' stuff reads arrogant as well. Made me really like him when I was a teen and missionary. I would have liked to hear Joseph speak. A lot of intent is lost in written word only.

I've listened to all of Denver's talks and don't get the arrogance to be honest.

Ya, I think that Abinadi character sounded pretty arrogant too. Who is he to say we are sinning?

I really didn't start taking Denver Snuffer seriously until after his excommunication.

I haven't been to any of his lectures or ever heard him speak at a live event, but I feel power in reading his words. I started asking myself, what if Denver's words actually came from Christ? What if the church actually cast someone out for speaking the words of Christ? I thought it should at least be considered.

I was praying about Denver Snuffer's words and could not believe what I felt when I read the words of Samuel the Lamanite in Helaman 13:

"Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the words of the Lord which he doth put into my heart"

"nothing can save this people save it be repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ"

"Therefore, thus saith the Lord: Because of the hardness of the hearts of the people of the Nephites, except they repent I will take away my word from them, and I will withdraw my Spirit from them"

"But behold, it is for the righteous’ sake that it is spared. But behold, the time cometh, saith the Lord, that when ye shall cast out the righteous from among you, then shall ye be ripe for destruction"

"if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet."

"Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him."

"Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides?"

If Denver Snuffer really speaks the words of Christ, I think the church is in serious trouble.

ajax wrote:

Curious Workman wrote: I'm reading the ten talks right now and there is a decidedly arrogant, superior tone surrounding them that I don't like. I don't consider him any kind of a prophet but in some of what I've read, he seems to be assuming the prophetic mantle.

I get this. A lot of Josephs' stuff reads arrogant as well. Made me really like him when I was a teen and missionary. I would have liked to hear Joseph speak. A lot of intent is lost in written word only.

I've listened to all of Denver's talks and don't get the arrogance to be honest.

I agree with this. It's refreshing to have someone speak honestly. Nobody wants to hear that they need to repent, so they become offended and find it to be "arrogant". People don't like hearing someone with the balls to say that those whom they idolize and "follow" need to repent. They become offended and find it to be “arrogant". Frankly I'm grateful for Denver's honesty; I've grown tired of flattery and feigned piety. I'm grateful for the truth that brought me to know the Lord for myself. That people are learning to know the Lord in this life seems too be some pretty sweet and desirable fruit.