What is the appeal of Denver Snuffer?

[Obrien]

this has been a busy week, and frankly, I've avoided this thread because I've had enough of the DS wrangling. what a pleasant surprise to read it. so many excellent posts. look at cappybara, on post #1, hitting it out of the park. and coachmarc - I loved reading your post. PLEASE post from the phone more often. Thomas, Ruby, boo, Ajax, Steve, even rewcox with thoughtful and well reasoned thoughts. and if course my digital mentor Jules I always love reading her thoughts. THIS kind of thread makes it worthwhile for me to continue investing time in LDSFF.

[Fairminded]

See, Bill, it all revolves around the excommunication of one Denver Snuffer. As Denver said,

Quote:
"Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church.

At that moment [in April 2014], the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood." -- D Snuffer

More: “If you were ordained in the LDS Church before April 2014 you can bless the sacrament and baptize. Otherwise, you should hold a conference among yourselves to sustain those who will minister unto you.” -- Snuffer

“This day, is this commandment renewed in your ears, in the name of Jesus Christ. You need to be baptized in the correct way, with the correct words – having authority. However improbable or unlikely any of this may seem to you, I testify it is true. It is from The Lord."
-- DEnver Snuffer in Mesa (last lecture)

So people bless the sacramental bread and wine (yes, real wine) outside the LDS church and yet still can go to the LDS Temples! amazing!

The Fifteen "abused their authority" in sustaining his excommunication from the church, and therefore have lost that authority, in April 2014! Is this not very exciting, Bill, and compelling? Who can doubt? its just like Samuel the Lamanite here!

He speaks in the name of Jesus Christ! He declares "It is from the The Lord"! Therefore, we MUST believe!
You need to be re-baptized! exciting!
And many are being re-baptized! called the "remnant community", right? but don't call it a church, nay.

How then can this be other than exciting in our ears? I love the term, "remnant"!

The "one mighty" must be among us! He has been chosen, clearly - I mean how many say openly that they have talked with Jesus, and that Jesus told them that the priesthood has been removed from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve last April conference? (DS says this interview with Jesus was in May 2014). Although clearly a most humble man. Overlook his anger and swearing -- it is just frustration I think!

Denver our teacher notes that he has even been visited by a dead President of the Church, the 6th President, even Joseph F. Smith! And Denver had a message from this dead man, and a message for US ALL!

Oh, then, let us not ever doubt One like Snuffer to proclaim that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have " abused their authority in
casting me out of the church". Clearly so, is it not so? And WHY would they CAST a humble man out?

His excommunication is THE turning point! the stone cut from the mountain without hands now moves sideways -- but please note this warning --

Snuffer warns that such that speak against him will face the wrath of God! Denver warns us! Take heed O ye! (Mesa lecture):

Denver Snuffer (Mesa talk): "I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it,
not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but
I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise.
The Lord has said to me in His
own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to
caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I
say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error
and denounce it.

But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I
live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately
chosen words if I can persuade you against it.

Take care what you say about this humble man who has such power!
" The Lord has said to me in His
own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." "

Denver can criticise the "Brethren" all he wants! but for any of us to criticize Denver Snuffer -- recall the warning above! This is serious! verily, yea!

Ah then, let us bless Snuffer and praise him! and wow, what excitement to be apart of his movement!

[Bill]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have a better understanding than I did this morning.

I have been reading some of Denver's blog and what Dr. Jones posted earlier. I wonder if Denver's role is changing from what most people have explained to me on this thread. In particular I was reading Pantomime and Standing Aside. Very illuminating.

There are lots of rumors floating around which I haven't a clue are true or not. Re-baptisms etc. which lead me to believe; if true; that at least some folks are taking his teachings to the next step.

And that is why I asked the questions I did....what was the appeal? Nobody here has mentioned a new Church; so either the new Church is not real or nobody is talking about it.

In any case; I appreciate the civil discussion we have had and I better understand what Denver's teaching mean to you.

[Bill]

The question is can you understand the appeal of being part of the greatest thing that has happened to mankind in at least the last 180 years and more accurately in the last 2000 years. That is what all of this is about

Boo, can you expand on your last statement? It sounds like there is a lot more behind that statement than has been discussed on this thread.

[Gideon]

Whether you share Denver's views or not is not the issue, the issue is that each one of us needs to stand for ourselves and connect with heaven, to know Christ and to know the Father.

It is really simple, Nephi sums is up in 2 Nephi 31 & 32. D&C 93:1 means something to me also, I take the scriptures literally as Joseph did with James 1:5.

I see no reason why I need to wait to repent, wait to the day of judgement to know my standing before God, in fact I would rather know now while I can still make those changes needed, for at that hour the time is passed.

Whatever gave you the idea that you, or anyone else has to wait? The prophets and apostles teach us to study the scriptures, to apply them to ourselves, and that just about everything in them is available to every member of the church. It is part of the big lie to suggest that the church teaches something else.

The appeal to Denver Snuffer is his love for Christ, the Holy Scriptures and the fact his views are not new to me.

This is where he lost me. His interpretation of some scriptures was so bizarre, and so easily disproved, that I couldn't trust anything he said after that.

I was not awaken by his book or books, he has expounded much - he hasn't revealed new truths

What about his statement in PTHG, is it old doctrine?

"The church now markets itself as an institution that will "strengthen families." It does not inform its members, or prospective converts that the day will come they will be burned up unless they have connected to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through Joseph Smith as the Dispensation head, in a necessary priestly ordinance."
(PTHG page 486)


Many who follow DS say this:

I seek to only follow Christ.

Makes no sense why God called Joseph Smith at 14... and not the President of the United States at that time, who potentially could have had a much more profound affect in establishing His gospel. He chooses people like Denver, you and me to be His messengers... why? Because it requires real faith for you to believe, and obscure uneducated, not popular 14 year old scruffy boy establishing a religion claiming he saw God is more believable than a man in Utah who believes Joseph words literally and likewise saw God, is a strange concept for Mormons - which is hard to believe.

What Mormons have a problem with another member of the church seeing God? Not the apostles. They teach that in General Conference.

How have the Mormons become like this is beyond me

Its beyond the rest of us also, because it isn't based in fact.

... what you say, only a few of us goto heaven is what Denver teaches. All you have to do is believe, grace is enough.. works don't matter... just accept Jesus in your heart and you will be raised up at the last day is what many of you are starting to sound like.

That is what Protestants believe, not Mormons. Are you, or have you ever been LDS? I am not trying to be rude or offensive, but it is astonishing that anyone in the church could possibly think that we teach or believe something so contrary to everything the church stands for.

God's revelations in Acts 2:17 has no place or room in the LDS Church at its present condition. Only the Prophet can speak for God, prophesy and declare revelations.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Those sons, and daughters will be ex'd if they prophesy in the name of God

This is another statement based on something other than fact. I know several people who have seen visions and spoken about them in Sacrament meeting, and they weren't censured, criticized, threatened, warned or excommunicated.

Reject Denver that is fine, reject the message and there in lies the problem... the message is no different than what we read in the scriptures - it is no wonder why he does not appeal to many of the members of this Church, the scriptures likewise do not appeal to many of the members either.

Denver's message is far more than connecting with God. It is heavily anti-LDS church, and much of it doesn't align with the scriptures at all.

He does teach some really good things, but he also teaches things that are poison to the soul.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

So people bless the sacramental bread and wine (yes, real wine) outside the LDS church and yet still can go to the LDS Temples! amazing!

God forbid some of us choose to do what Jesus did....

For the record, Denver did NOT tell me to to this (I'm not sure he told anyone to do it). God did - at least a year and a half before Denver ever even alluded to the topic.

[farfromhome]

So people bless the sacramental bread and wine (yes, real wine) outside the LDS church and yet still can go to the LDS Temples! amazing!

God forbid some of us choose to do what Jesus did....

For the record, Denver did NOT tell me to to this (I'm not sure he told anyone to do it). God did - at least a year and a half before Denver ever even alluded to the topic.

Interesting
So you admit that you drink wine, alcoholic wine. As do many who follow the teachings of Snuffer. And do the sacrament in their own homes (without a bishop's approval), those who a part of a Snuffer or "remnant" community.

May I ask- what do you tell a Bishop or counselor when he asks if you "abstain from alcohol"? do you admit that you drink alcoholic wine?

[TannerG]

He appeals to me because if true, then he is the most qualified witness that I have found that Joseph was a true prophet. For if he truly has had the experiences that he claims, then Joseph's system of faith is as valid as a scientific test for it is observable AND repeatable.

I like Denver because he strengthens my belief in the restoration and my faith in Christ. It's just hard to find anyone who claims to know with surety. Joseph mentioned people who talk of heaven and hell but have never seen either. Well, it's cool to hear someone who claims to have seen.

I'm not saying this is reason to believe him. These are just reasons I have found to initiate an investigation. To each their own.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

So people bless the sacramental bread and wine (yes, real wine) outside the LDS church and yet still can go to the LDS Temples! amazing!

God forbid some of us choose to do what Jesus did....

For the record, Denver did NOT tell me to to this (I'm not sure he told anyone to do it). God did - at least a year and a half before Denver ever even alluded to the topic.

Interesting
So you admit that you drink wine, alcoholic wine. As do many who follow the teachings of Snuffer. And do the sacrament in their own homes (without a bishop's approval), those who a part of a Snuffer or "remnant" community.

May I ask- what do you tell a Bishop or counselor when he asks if you "abstain from alcohol"? do you admit that you drink alcoholic wine?

As I said, I was told by God to partake of the Lord's Supper the way the Savior instituted it - more than a year and a half before it was brought up by Denver. My decision had NOTHING to do with him.

Please show me the scriptures that say I must have bishop's approval to commune with the Lord via the sacrament in my own home.

Why would a bishop or counselor ask me if I abstain from alcohol? If they did ask me that, I'd ask why they are asking. Yes, I use alcoholic wine for the sacrament - as the Savior did and if for some reason I was required to give an answer to that question (which I'm still not sure why I would be), I would not lie, and would tell them the truth.

[Thomas]

Fairminded wrote:
Denver can criticise the "Brethren" all he wants! but for any of us to criticize Denver Snuffer -- recall the warning above! This is serious! verily, yea!

Let's get serious here. Who has cursed the brethren? I just have not ever seen it happen on this forum nor I have I heard Snuffer curse the brethren.

Now some have said they do not agree with their teachings. Snuffer has said, you are free to disagree with his as well. We should not be cursing anyone.

If you have just read the part of Snuffer's lecture where he explains the Lord took away the priesthood because of Snuffer's exing, you could easily mistake what he means. I know it sounds arrogant and like it is all about Snuffer but it is not all about Snuffer. It is about much more. As he said, the Lord had it mind all along because of the direction of the church. Because of the things the Book of Mormon warns about. If you read all the lectures, you would know this. It is the grinding of the faces of the poor, robbing the poor because of the fine buildings and clothes, the priestcrafts, the building of the church to get gain. It is the not entering in themselves and preventing others from entering as well. Snuffer is the catalyst, and the opportunity to repent. When the opportunity to repent was rejected, God took the priesthood away.

[farfromhome]

Jules:

Why would a bishop or counselor ask me if I abstain from alcohol?

They will also ask if you abstain from tobacco, Jules -- these are standard questions in a Temple recommend interview. That is public knowledge, I believe.

So - are you saying you have Temple recommend interviews and they DON"T ask you about abstaining from alcohol?

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Jules:

Why would a bishop or counselor ask me if I abstain from alcohol?

They will also ask if you abstain from tobacco, Jules -- these are standard questions in a Temple recommend interview. That is public knowledge, I believe.

So - are you saying you have Temple recommend interviews and they DON"T ask you about abstaining from alcohol?

No, the recommend interview does not ask those questions - unless the bishop embellishes them, which is inappropriate.

[Thomas]

They don't ask if you abstain from alcohol. They ask if you obey the word of wisdom.

Joseph Smith drink wine the day he was murdered and drank beer on a regular basis. Too bad they don't put that in the manuals but you sure can read about it in his journal and the journals of others.

[boo]

[quote="farfromhome"

May I ask- what do you tell a Bishop or counselor when he asks if you "abstain from alcohol"? do you admit that you drink alcoholic wine?[/quote]
What church do you belong to ?? In the 61 years I have been a member of the COJCOLDS I have never ever been asked that question by anyone. I have only been asked do you keep the WOW . Are you making up new TR questions by yourself. Spare me your imposition of the philosophies of men on the gospel please

[boo]

The question is can you understand the appeal of being part of the greatest thing that has happened to mankind in at least the last 180 years and more accurately in the last 2000 years. That is what all of this is about

Boo, can you expand on your last statement? It sounds like there is a lot more behind that statement than has been discussed on this thread.

I really should stop spending so much time on this and go do the dishes instead but since you asked. The fundamental purpose of the single talk with 10 chapters was to inform people that we once again have a once in a multiple generational opportunity to prepare ourselves to bring about Zion . The return of Zion is a necessary prerequisite to the return of the Savior and it will return when it has an earthly counterpart. Effectively we have the same opportunity that Moses offered the children of Israel at Mt Horeb and the Lord offered the early saints as recorded in the D&C section 124 et al.We can turn into a Zion people and be part of the return of the heavenly Zion and be caught up to met them. Genesis 9 JST Or we can continue our slothful and dissolute ways patting ourselves on the back and saying all is well in the good ship Zion and wait another few hundred years before the Lord will give another people the opportunity we have rejected 3Nephi16. The testimony of the D Snuffers and Jules and others ( including me) on this forum and elsewhere is that now is the time mentioned by Joel and foretold by Joseph that ( contrary to the institutional dogma) men are again seeing visions of God and his angels and dreaming dreams and working miracles. That is all part of His " strange work' and his marvelous work that will result in the remnant bringing about the New Jerusalem 3 Nephi 20:8-23. But it will only happen if we are made pure so when he appears we can be like him Moroni 7 ;48. This whole thing isn't about power ,control, institution building or organized movements. It is about preparing people to meet God

[deep water]

I have never read Denver's books. I just listened to his talks starting about 4 months ago. I did so because one of my sons brought up his teaching's, and to protect him, I thought it best to investigate what Denver has to say. My son had a co-worker that was taken with the teaching of Denver. My son's co-worker was amazed, as he would learn of a new interpretation of scriptures, my son would elaborate upon it. He would ask my son where he learned the Gospel the way that this Denver was teaching it. My son would answer that his father had been teaching the same interpretation of the Gospel for years. HOW DENVER UNDERSTANDS THE GOSPEL, IS THE TRUTH.
If God has ask Denver, or anyone to preach a Gospel to the world, even if you do not understand or agree with his conclusion. You owe it to the Lord and to yourself to research what is being said. Is it true to the Bible and BOM and JS teachings. I myself will research until I find that they are teaching an untruth. Once I find an untruth, I will research what I see as an untruth even further. You will find that if they are teaching something untrue, Most of the time, the Lord will have already have taught you the truth of the matter, if you will just walk back in your own experiences. Then like Saul be hot for what your truth is. Not some washed about follower of this or that. Do every thing to prove your knowledge true. If you believe in follow the leader and are one link in a long snake like line, ask yourself, is the head of this snake, the eyes and ears, walking in accordance with Gods laws. Are they living a Zion life? Do you even know what Zion consists of? Or is this snake just what a snake is? Slithering around in Babylon? Many times God has warned us to beware of false teachers (prophets) who are wolves in sheep's clothing. They'er speech is pleasant, but they gather fruit of thistles. Fruit that is not, can not, sanctify. If their words and works were true then they would exhibit the true fruits. There would be NO sick among them. Anything less than this is darkness, and you owe it yourself to search the difference.

[aeon]

I'll try to answer the original question.

The appeal to me was the fact that he would guide me how to converse with the lord face to face. With PTHG and with his latest talks, I lost the spirit and decided that he was no longer inspired in his writings. Maybe he has been deceived along the way.

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln

What do our leaders teach us now that we are a worlwide, media oriented church thus "visible" organization ?. We are taught to follow christ, love everybody, be good people and avoid bad influences. It's all true and I should get better at it. But sometimes, we want meat; Joseph Smith non public kind of teachings.

That's what we all love about the gospel right ? Angels, keys, visions, prophecies, translations, gift of tongues, visitations, Zion ! etc.

I sustain the 15 Prophets of the church...
...and often I wish the Prophets would talk about their visions, about their encounterings with celestial beeings and with Christ, about their dreams. I want to know more about the Urim and Tummin, seerstone or the second coming. I would love to read the sealed portion of the BOM and the book of Joseph (mentioned at the end of joseph smith's life). But for one reason or another, it does not happen.

[farfromhome]

I'll try to answer the original question.

The appeal to me was the fact that he would guide me how to converse with the lord face to face. With PTHG and with his latest talks, I lost the spirit and decided that he was no longer inspired in his writings. Maybe he has been deceived along the way.

.

This agrees with what several others have commented.

About alcohol: I checked and the LDS baptismal interview specifically asks about abstaining from alcohol and tobacco, but the temple interview is more general, just asking about whether or not you keep the Word of Wisdom. So I stand corrected.

I've noticed that Snffer admirers drink wine and sometimes beer, and perhaps boast about their new lifestyle a bit too much - anyway, they feel this is NOT in violation of the word of wisdom per Snuffer's teachings! So they have found a loop hole, a "perk" of Snufferism.

[shestalou]

One thing I do need to say about the people who do follow Denver Snuffer, I love how they take care of their people, they truly do follow the spirit of attending to the poor, and I do think that is where Zion starts, if they did not put the brethern down I would be a true part of it but I honestly believe that good comes from many sources and even from the brethern.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I'll try to answer the original question.

The appeal to me was the fact that he would guide me how to converse with the lord face to face. With PTHG and with his latest talks, I lost the spirit and decided that he was no longer inspired in his writings. Maybe he has been deceived along the way.

.

This agrees with what several others have commented.

About alcohol: I checked and the LDS baptismal interview specifically asks about abstaining from alcohol and tobacco, but the temple interview is more general, just asking about whether or not you keep the Word of Wisdom. So I stand corrected.

I've noticed that Snffer admirers drink wine and sometimes beer, and perhaps boast about their new lifestyle a bit too much - anyway, they feel this is NOT in violation of the word of wisdom per Snuffer's teachings! So they have found a loop hole, a "perk" of Snufferism.

Show me where DS said anything about advocating beer - and please do see for yourself what he has actually said about drinking wine for the sacrament - and pay specific attention to what Denver has admitted to doing himself over the years regarding the use of alcohol. Your generalization here about "Snufferism" and what he allegedly teaches (and what "everyone" actually does) is utterly false.

[ajax]

And do the sacrament in their own homes (without a bishop's approval),

The handbook of instructions do not apply in our home, nor is the bishop the presiding authority in our home, he's not even a counselor. He's a guest, only if he behaves.

My wife and I are the joint leaders of our family unit, the most important organization now and in eternity btw, heads and shoulders more important than the church, and we live the religion according to the dictates of our own conscience, which includes taking scripture for what it actually says - wine. No "authority" has the right to walk into anybody's home and tell them otherwise. The home and family are eternal. To give the church that much power over the home is to set it up as an idol.

[rewcox]

What is wrong with our leaders? What do they say that is bad?

Here are links to the 2 talks by President Monson in October Conference, what did he say that was wrong? Did he talk of Christ?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng

BroJones has commented on the 10 part talk by DS, you have to admit that was bizarre.

[worthit]

The handbook of instructions do not apply in our home, nor is the bishop the presiding authority in our home, he's not even a counselor. He's a guest, only if he behaves.

My wife and I are the joint leaders of our family unit, the most important organization now and in eternity btw, heads and shoulders more important than the church, and we live the religion according to the dictates of our own conscience, which includes taking scripture for what it actually says - wine. No "authority" has the right to walk into anybody's home and tell them otherwise. The home and family are eternal. To give the church that much power over the home is to set it up as an idol.

Whoa! This is so clear! Profound. A deeply sincere thanks for this post. Beautiful. I feel the cracks in the dominion overreach!

[FoxMammaWisdom]

BroJones has commented on the 10 part talk by DS, you have to admit that was bizarre.

Not if you understand it.

[ajax]

What is wrong with our leaders? What do they say that is bad?

Here are links to the 2 talks by President Monson in October Conference, what did he say that was wrong? Did he talk of Christ?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng

Good talks, just don't express different scriptural interpretations, nor reveal personal worship habits in the home, lest you be brought before the council and be told to stand down.