What is the appeal of Denver Snuffer?

[Bill]

Perhaps i misunderstood you but look at your 3rd paragraph carefully. You seem to divide everyone who gives credence to D Snuffer into one of 2 groups .The first are those who had already at some level left the church and he was a convenient vehicle to do so or those who left because of what he said or taught. That does not accurately describe most of the people I interact with who think he has inspired insights into the Lords message for the latter days. It doesn't even describe a number of the most frequent posters on this forum. Thus if I correctly read your 3rd paragraph I think your assumption is erroneous. If I misunderstood the content of your 3rd paragraph please correct me.

Yes you are correct; I did only have two options. I guess what you are saying is that there is a third group; those that like what he says but go no further. If that is the case then I am not really addressing those folks in this thread. I am asking the question to those who take his message so seriously that they are willing to leave the Church; or are on their way out of the Church due to the message.

For example, I can agree with Hillary Clinton on a couple of topics without becoming a Democrat. But if Hillary's message so resonated with me that I changed my allegiance to the Democrat party- that is news. And that is what I am looking for with the folks who are moving to Denver's movement.

By the way. I call it 'movement' for lack of a better word. We have to call it something for conversation purposes, and I just chose that word.

[Bill]

I appreciate everyone's comments, and I really request we keep this discussion free of "the Denver people are wrong or Denver is wrong"

My goal is to not say he is right or wrong, I am just interested in WHAT the appeal is.

It sounds so far like there are three broad categories. (let me know if I am missing one or have one wrong)

Those that like the message but are not going past that to actually become a "follower of Denver" for lack of a better word.
- question: What is the most important thing he says that resonates with you?

Those that have doubts about the authority of the LDS brethren and have found something in the writings of Denver which solves the question in your mind.
-question: what made you doubt the legitimacy of the current leadership in the first place, and how did the writings of Denver validate your feelings?

Those who are fully in the movement (for lack of a better word), and are ready to give up their membership if required to continue in the movement
-question: what is so satisfying with the message that it would be worth making the change

Again, my goal is to get to the reasons this movement appeals to people.

[Thomas]

Focus on Christ vs focus on brethren. No idol worship. No making the church an idol.

Actually live the teachings of Christ, return love to those that treat you wrong etc..

Read scriptures. Common people have the right to the Holy Ghost and to interpret scripture.

Take care of the poor.

Focus on Book of Mormon, instead of a few select verses of the Book.

Focus on what Joseph taught.

Just a few things that appeal about Denver's message.

[BroJones]

I don't post on here very often but my DS experience is rather atypical, I think, so it might be worth sharing.

I'm a recent convert, only been a member since last February, but attended meetings for a year or so prior to being baptized. I read Second Comforter prior to becoming a member after hearing about it on a podcast (had never heard of DS before), and it actually helped encourage me in my decision to join the church (along with many other things). It suggested a depth of spiritual experience within the context of the Mormon faith that I hadn't encountered before and it was really attractive to me.

Later I read PTHG and realized that it was an entirely different sort of book. It dealt with historical issues that I had already been around the block with and although I found the book interesting, it didn't affect my faith or my decision to get baptized. I was disturbed, though, when I heard that DS had been ex'ed. The whole excommunication thing strikes me as very un-Christlike, and although I understand the institutional necessity of the procedure, it violates my liberal sensibilities.

I'm reading the ten talks right now and there is a decidedly arrogant, superior tone surrounding them that I don't like. I don't consider him any kind of a prophet but in some of what I've read, he seems to be assuming the prophetic mantle. His admonitions to stay in the Church if you are happy in it sound good but in the context of everything else he says, it's like he's saying, "yeah, go ahead and stay on the sinking ship if that's what floats your boat."

His earlier writings are very different and focus on spirituality...

I find this an excellent summary. It is the APPEAL of his early writings, a focus on Christ rather than "Follow the prophet" mantra that built the "Snuffer movement".

It is his latest lectures that depart so far from this early start. Now
we find Denver claims that the First Presidency and Twelve have LOST the priesthood - as of April 2014 Gen. Conference!

You won't find anything like that in his earlier books, but folks are being led along. PLEASE read what Snuffer says in Mesa, Arizona, his last lecture. I quote a portion to give you (reader) the flavor of it:

Quote:
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church.

At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood." -- D Snuffer

More: “If you were ordained in the LDS Church before April 2014 you can bless the sacrament and baptize. Otherwise, you should hold a conference among yourselves to sustain those who will minister unto you.” -- Snuffer

“This day, is this commandment renewed in your ears, in the name of Jesus Christ. You need to be baptized in the correct way, with the correct words – having authority. However improbable or unlikely any of this may seem to you, I testify it is true. It is from The Lord."
-- DEnver Snuffer in Mesa (last lecture)

Direct quote of what Denver Snuffer is NOW teaching. There you have it. ARROGANCE? You decide!

Earlier today, I contrasted this incredible statement by Mr (Bro?) Snuffer with what the Lord revealed,

Quote:
For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112

VERY clear -- "is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112"

But Snuffer offers a DIFFERENT solution...

[Thomas]

Hmm, God has given his power unto men, irrevocable even. I don't buy it.

I believe this is basically what your are saying Bro Jones:

2 Nephi 28:5
5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

[Ruby]

I would suggest that only the people to whom Denver actually appeals would know the answer to this question.
If you really want to know what's appealing about someone, do you listen to their critics?

*edited the typo

[BroJones]

Hmm, God has given his power unto men, irrevocable even. I don't buy it.

I believe this is basically what your are saying Bro Jones:

2 Nephi 28:5
5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

NOT what I"m saying AT ALL!! how unfair and misleading.

RATHER, I'm saying trust the Lord to maintain what he set forth and TRUST JESUS that His priesthood WILL continue in HIS church -- and let HIM do the cleansing as He promised!

AGain I urge all to READ Snuffer's last talk, of which I've quoted a portion, and contrast this with the Doctrine and Covenants and other scriptures (of which I've quoted a portion.

[Bill]

I would suggest that only the people to whom Denver actually appeals would know the answer this question.
If you really want to know what's appealing about someone, do you listen to their critics?

I agree. I can't learn what I am trying to learn from folks bashing it. It brings up defense responses.

[Bill]

Focus on Christ vs focus on brethren. No idol worship. No making the church an idol.

Actually live the teachings of Christ, return love to those that treat you wrong etc..

Read scriptures. Common people have the right to the Holy Ghost and to interpret scripture.

Take care of the poor.

Focus on Book of Mormon, instead of a few select verses of the Book.

Focus on what Joseph taught.

Just a few things that appeal about Denver's message.

I must have hit the wrong button because I had a couple of questions on this and they vanished.

What I really don't understand is the need for a Joseph Smith in this whole equation. If the message is that we are to go directly to the Lord; and that Denver has developed a methodology to help us achieve that; what is the role of a Joseph Smith in attaining that goal? There are as many questions about Joseph as there are about Thomas Monson with many people. Why not just skip Joseph in this whole scenario?

[Thomas]

Bro Jones, Snuffer has not said that the priesthood has been taken off the earth, nor has he said there is no priesthood within the church. What he said is that the priesthood power of his stake leaders, the Seventy, the twelve and First Presidency have been taken from them.

What do you think the 112 statement is saying? Does that mean Sidney Rigdon and all the other apostles that left the church or were exed, still have their priesthood?

The Lord is the only one that grants priesthood or takes it away. Snuffer has not claimed he took the priesthood from them. He said God did. So, how do you know whether this is the way God is doing the cleansing or not? Denver is just the the one giving the word. The message will come from someone, will it not?

112 says priesthood. That priesthood has gone forth to many people since 1837. It remains today whether the current twelve have it or not.

[ajax]

AGain I urge all to READ Snuffer's last talk, of which I've quoted a portion, and contrast this with the Doctrine and Covenants and other scriptures (of which I've quoted a portion.

I've listened to all of them. I would also urge all to review the previous 9. Denver always stated this was one big talk. The previous 9 are foundational, and a deconstruction of many false notions regarding faith, priesthood, Zion etc. It is hard to evaluate the conclusions at the end of a presentation without listening to the whole presentation. As jury, we need to carefully listen to the whole case if you will, not just the closing arguments.

BroJones, you certainly would encourage the same for those evaluating your work, no?

[shestalou]

It sounds like Bill you have your mind made up already then I would suggest if you dont want to hear from the critics, there are followers of his on facebook LDS Remenant or the PTHG forum and you will find very faithful followers of Denver.

[Thomas]

Focus on Christ vs focus on brethren. No idol worship. No making the church an idol.

Actually live the teachings of Christ, return love to those that treat you wrong etc..

Read scriptures. Common people have the right to the Holy Ghost and to interpret scripture.

Take care of the poor.

Focus on Book of Mormon, instead of a few select verses of the Book.

Focus on what Joseph taught.

Just a few things that appeal about Denver's message.

I must have hit the wrong button because I had a couple of questions on this and they vanished.

What I really don't understand is the need for a Joseph Smith in this whole equation. If the message is that we are to go directly to the Lord; and that Denver has developed a methodology to help us achieve that; what is the role of a Joseph Smith in attaining that goal? There are as many questions about Joseph as there are about Thomas Monson with many people. Why not just skip Joseph in this whole scenario?

There is no Thomas Monson without Joseph nor is there a Book of Mormon. Either Joseph was a true prophet or he was not. If not, the whole church is a fraud. The current church teaches much that goes against what Joseph has revealed. The leadership has taken power that according to revelations, given through Joseph, were not supposed to be theirs. God doesn't work by dictatorship and neither did Joseph.

Bro. Snuffer is a strong believer in the Book of Mormon and believes that the church and members are neglecting it. He describes it as a great tool for revelation, if studied in great depth, with prayer and pondering. Snuffer says,it was his in depth study of the Book of Mormon that brought him to a face to face meeting with Christ. Joseph Smith was the man that brought the Book of Mormon to us. Joseph gave us same great tools for coming to Christ. Many of them have been discarded or neglected, like the Lectures on Faith.

[Bill]

It sounds like Bill you have your mind made up already then I would suggest if you dont want to hear from the critics, there are followers of his on facebook LDS Remenant or the PTHG forum and you will find very faithful followers of Denver.

You misunderstand me. I am anti-communist but I have no problem asking a communist what appeals to them about communism. That is all I am doing; trying to figure out what the appeal is. And it would not do to ask Ronald Reagan what the appeal of communism is. I thought there were a group of followers of Snuffer on this forum which is why I asked here. If you read my earlier posts on other threads; you will see that I am not a follower. I just decided to sit back a bit and try to figure out WHY others follow him. Call it intellectual curiosity. I am not seeking to be converted, just to gain a better understanding.

What is the PTHG forum? Facebook I can figure out.

[Thomas]

Hmm, God has given his power unto men, irrevocable even. I don't buy it.

I believe this is basically what your are saying Bro Jones:

2 Nephi 28:5
5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

NOT what I"m saying AT ALL!! how unfair and misleading.

RATHER, I'm saying trust the Lord to maintain what he set forth and TRUST JESUS that His priesthood WILL continue in HIS church -- and let HIM do the cleansing as He promised!

AGain I urge all to READ Snuffer's last talk, of which I've quoted a portion, and contrast this with the Doctrine and Covenants and other scriptures (of which I've quoted a portion.

Trust that the Lord has taken away the agency of church leaders so they cannot lead us astray?

[Stacy Oliver]

Trust that the Lord has taken away the agency of church leaders so they cannot lead us astray?

It was long prophesied that Joseph would restore the church and that the BoM would come forward. Did God take away his agency?

[Bill]

There is no Thomas Monson without Joseph nor is there a Book of Mormon. Either Joseph was a true prophet or he was not. If not, the whole church is a fraud. The current church teaches much that goes against what Joseph has revealed. The leadership has taken power that according to revelations, given through Joseph, were not supposed to be theirs. God doesn't work by dictatorship and neither did Joseph.

Bro. Snuffer is a strong believer in the Book of Mormon and believes that the church and members are neglecting it. He describes it as a great tool for revelation, if studied in great depth, with prayer and pondering. Snuffer says,it was his in depth study of the Book of Mormon that brought him to a face to face meeting with Christ. Joseph Smith was the man that brought the Book of Mormon to us. Joseph gave us same great tools for coming to Christ. Many of them have been discarded or neglected, like the Lectures on Faith.

Ok, that makes sense.

So Joseph, who was a restoration figure, and the Book of Mormon are good; but the implementation of the Church post Joseph went awry if I understand what you are saying.

In the opinion of the followers of Denver's teaching; what are the key items that were dropped or changed or added post Joseph?

It appears to me that Denver is saying he is also a restoration figure; do I have that right? If so, then he is trying to get the Church back to the J. Smith basics so to speak. It is almost like the reformation movement that many religions go through. Islam had it and even the LDS Church had it in the 1860's. I guess you could call Martin Luther a reformation movement.

[marc]

I really didn't start taking Denver Snuffer seriously until after his excommunication.

I haven't been to any of his lectures or ever heard him speak at a live event, but I feel power in reading his words. I started asking myself, what if Denver's words actually came from Christ? What if the church actually cast someone out for speaking the words of Christ? I thought it should at least be considered.

I was praying about Denver Snuffer's words and could not believe what I felt when I read the words of Samuel the Lamanite in Helaman 13:

"Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the words of the Lord which he doth put into my heart"

"nothing can save this people save it be repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ"

"Therefore, thus saith the Lord: Because of the hardness of the hearts of the people of the Nephites, except they repent I will take away my word from them, and I will withdraw my Spirit from them"

"But behold, it is for the righteous’ sake that it is spared. But behold, the time cometh, saith the Lord, that when ye shall cast out the righteous from among you, then shall ye be ripe for destruction"

"if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet."

"Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him."

"Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides?"

If Denver Snuffer really speaks the words of Christ, I think the church is in serious trouble.

I love the example of Samuel the Lamanite. He appeared on the scene humbly, bearing glad tidings. He departed with a voice of warning, probably sounding very arrogant.

[AI2.0]

I find this an excellent summary. It is the APPEAL of his early writings, a focus on Christ rather than "Follow the prophet" mantra that built the "Snuffer movement".

It is his latest lectures that depart so far from this early start. Now
we find Denver claims that the First Presidency and Twelve have LOST the priesthood - as of April 2014 Gen. Conference!

You won't find anything like that in his earlier books, but folks are being led along. PLEASE read what Snuffer says in Mesa, Arizona, his last lecture. I quote a portion to give you (reader) the flavor of it:

Quote:
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church.

At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood." -- D Snuffer

More: “If you were ordained in the LDS Church before April 2014 you can bless the sacrament and baptize. Otherwise, you should hold a conference among yourselves to sustain those who will minister unto you.” -- Snuffer

“This day, is this commandment renewed in your ears, in the name of Jesus Christ. You need to be baptized in the correct way, with the correct words – having authority. However improbable or unlikely any of this may seem to you, I testify it is true. It is from The Lord."
-- DEnver Snuffer in Mesa (last lecture)

Direct quote of what Denver Snuffer is NOW teaching. There you have it. ARROGANCE? You decide!

Earlier today, I contrasted this incredible statement by Mr (Bro?) Snuffer with what the Lord revealed,

Quote:
For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112

VERY clear -- "is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112"

But Snuffer offers a DIFFERENT solution...

You are right, some were apparently 'converted' to Denver Snuffer's beliefs through his earlier books and they seem to ignore what he's teaching now, since his excommunication.
And, I keep wondering how an LDS person who still believes in the church can reconcile this with believing Denver now.

With his last lecture, there is no doubt, he's rejected the Lord's church organization of 12 Apostles--Denver has no apostles in his 'community' and he claims the ones on the earth lost their priesthood. Where in the scriptures, such as, the stone cut out of the mountain without hands etc., are the prophesies for the stone to fall into apostasy and a 'new' 'church' or 'movement' to grow out of it, yet not follow the pattern of the Lord's church which he set up during his ministry in Jerusalem and which he also set up when he visited the Nephites?
I'm waiting for Denver to explain that one and I'm wondering just how well his adherents REALLY know their scriptures because they don't seem to be bothered by it and only seem to know the Lectures on Faith and a handful of scripture references someone has spoon fed them.

[rewcox]

@BMC

The ride was good until the book that doesn't claim it is true came out, and ya'll decided you didn't like the church and leaders any longer.

At least for me, that has been the issue.

Please provide Denver's quote in full.

I like the leaders and I like the church. I don't care much for traditions and teachings I don't believe in. But that doesn't mean we're enemies.

This is the paragraph from his Oct 23, 2013 post:

The book assumes it is competing with another tradition taught to us by the church, and only suggests there may be another way to view events. It does not claim to be right. That is left to the reader to decide. In many specific topics the material reaches a "tie" and leaves it to the reader to choose the result.

An interesting lawyerease. The book, not the author??? If it's not true, then it is false??? For someone who visits with Christ, who is Truth, wouldn't DS know the truth???

[CAPYBARA]

What is the appeal?

For me, he provided possible answers to questions that were troubling me. Long before I heard about Snuffer I was in a pickle. I have received answers to my prayers confirming that Joseph Smith saw God and that the Book of Mormon contained the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have also received an answer to my question of whether Thomas Monson is a prophet, and the answer was no. Please bare in mind that when I prayed about that last thing I was as TBM or more so than anyone here. I was genuinely shocked to get that answer with such clarity.

It was years after this experience that I came across Denver. At first, I heard of his book "The Second Comforter" and dismissed it as something I wanted to read because anyone who had such an experience surely would never talk about it, so he must be a liar. Eventually, though, I submitted to promptings and read the book. The Gospel came to life for me again after a long spell of feeling like I was spinning my wheels to get the attention of heaven.

Like others I was troubled by "Passing the Heavenly Gift." I made it about 1/2 way through one night and became almost physically ill. I couldn't tell if it was the spirit telling me to stay away from it, or just that the content was crushing so many of my long-held beliefs. After praying for days to know whether to continue or not, I was confident that God wanted me to finish reading it. It was very uncomfortable, but I believe the discomfort was a refining process. I recognize that many who read this will think that I should have interpreted that as a sign to stay away.

Since PTHG, I have attended several of Snuffer's lectures. I have found them to be very edifying. There were many times when it was painful like when I was reading PTHG, but again after pondering and meaningful supplications to Almighty God, I felt confident that it was only painful because of my belief in incorrect things.

Do I have a testimony that the church is true?

No. I can't claim that I have ever, even as TBM, received revelation, or even inspiration that the church is true. I assumed it was because of the confirmations I have had about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, but once I asked about the current leadership I understand that the truthfulness of Joseph and the BoM don't lead to the conclusion that we are still what God wants.

Why am I still a member of the church? Why do I want a temple recommend? etc.

I grew up in a large family in the church. My spouse did as well. Family life is church-centric. A good part of all conversations with any family member will be about the church. Aren't you so excited for General Conference? Wasn't General Conference so great? I had such an amazing experience doing family history! etc. For some people it may be a simple thing to walk away. It is not for me. There would be extremely large implications. It's not just leaving a church. It is getting shunned by neighbors, judged by family, and mocked by faithful members on the interwebs.

I maintain a current temple recommend. Again, if I weren't able to attend the temple with my family, endless judging and shunning would result. Do I feel dishonest about having a recommend? No. I feel more worthy to be there than ever. (I understand this can be taken like I am arrogant, but I have heard the voice of the Lord tell me my sins are forgiven)

I hope this provided a small amount of insight to appease your intellectual curiosities. I am willing to answer other questions. Perhaps if there is interest I will do an AMA about my beliefs as an active member who thinks the church is apostate.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

@BMC

The ride was good until the book that doesn't claim it is true came out, and ya'll decided you didn't like the church and leaders any longer.

At least for me, that has been the issue.

Please provide Denver's quote in full.

I like the leaders and I like the church. I don't care much for traditions and teachings I don't believe in. But that doesn't mean we're enemies.

This is the paragraph from his Oct 23, 2013 post:

The book assumes it is competing with another tradition taught to us by the church, and only suggests there may be another way to view events. It does not claim to be right. That is left to the reader to decide. In many specific topics the material reaches a "tie" and leaves it to the reader to choose the result.

An interesting lawyerease. The book, not the author??? If it's not true, then it is false??? For someone who visits with Christ, who is Truth, wouldn't DS know the truth???

He's telling you to let God tell you the truth of it. He's just putting the information out there. If you find a more logical conclusion, why don't you write it up with citations, in a clear way, and present it to Denver. He's always been very open about receiving different arguments with additional evidence.

BTW, you assume that just because someone talks with the Lord, that their eternal progression is over and they should be "all knowing" all of a sudden. This is a false belief. So criticizing Denver for being humanly wrong at times is kind of a silly argument. Joseph Smith walked and talked with the Lord, but was wrong PLENTY.

[marc]

I'm on my cell phone so forgive the awkwardness in this post, if there is one. Twenty some years ago, on my mission, I learned about Joseph Smith's admonition to seek our calling and election until it is made sure. I had thought such a thing was reserved for only for an elite few-for great and noble ones unlike myself. The Spirit taught me otherwise.

After decades of intensive and prayerful study of Joseph Smith's teachings and especially the scriptures and my personal journey to the veil of unbelief, I am confident in my standing thus far before the Lord. There is nothing that any man in any position can do to shake me. If I live to the age of man, I will have read and studied the Book of Mormon hundreds of times. I see the patterns.

Denver, having been along this path, which we all seek, or should seek, having sacrificed everything twice in one lifetime, has connected some dots for me because of his experiences, for which I am grateful. His path is between him and God and I understand his confidence in his position.

I have my own path and whether or not it ever intersects with his makes no difference to me. I have been baptized with fire and I have sung the song of redeeming love. I continually sing the song of redeeming love. The Holy Spirit is my guide and no one else. I have heard the voice of the Lord from time to time. I have dreamed dreams. I am active in my calling and I honor my covenants. I serve cheerfully and elevate the poor and needy every chance I get to the best of my ability.

Why should these things be offensive to fellow disciples of Jesus Christ? He is an equal opportunity Savior. He is eager to offer all these things and more to everyone else. If a simpleton like me can experience these things, so can you.

[boo]

There is no Thomas Monson without Joseph nor is there a Book of Mormon. Either Joseph was a true prophet or he was not. If not, the whole church is a fraud. The current church teaches much that goes against what Joseph has revealed. The leadership has taken power that according to revelations, given through Joseph, were not supposed to be theirs. God doesn't work by dictatorship and neither did Joseph.

Bro. Snuffer is a strong believer in the Book of Mormon and believes that the church and members are neglecting it. He describes it as a great tool for revelation, if studied in great depth, with prayer and pondering. Snuffer says,it was his in depth study of the Book of Mormon that brought him to a face to face meeting with Christ. Joseph Smith was the man that brought the Book of Mormon to us. Joseph gave us same great tools for coming to Christ. Many of them have been discarded or neglected, like the Lectures on Faith.

Ok, that makes sense.

So Joseph, who was a restoration figure, and the Book of Mormon are good; but the implementation of the Church post Joseph went awry if I understand what you are saying.

In the opinion of the followers of Denver's teaching; what are the key items that were dropped or changed or added post Joseph?

It appears to me that Denver is saying he is also a restoration figure; do I have that right? If so, then he is trying to get the Church back to the J. Smith basics so to speak. It is almost like the reformation movement that many religions go through. Islam had it and even the LDS Church had it in the 1860's. I guess you could call Martin Luther a reformation movement.

No i do not think you have that right. The fundamental difficulty you face in your quest is that the facts don't readily or neatly fit in your preexisting mental categories. Denver Snuffer continually says he is nothing and no one should follow him or accept at face value what he says. He says he doesn't want his name spoken and certainly is not the leader of any movement. He impliedly has said he isn't a reformational figure. He says nothing will make him happier than to fade away and never be hear of again. The only important thing about him is his message that heaven is once again open for business and angels and Gods are once agin visiting the earth . His message is that having failed to construct a Zion society when we had the chance180 years ago we once again have that chance but that reformation must begin with us individually. He testifies to the truthfulness of Joseph;s work and the B of M and openly says we must work out our own salvation individually by seeking to " know" the Savior without regard to institutional constraints or adhering to false precepts or tenets. If you try to characterize him as a joseph ,a reformer, or the leader of a movement you don't understand what he is about or the appeal of his message. All analogies are imperfect and analogizing him to the mysterious Samuel the Lamanite is inaccurate but if you insist on using performed categories it is better than most. Both he and Amos show a particular type of an otherwise undistinguished man called by God to deliver a message of repentance and the good news of the gospel of salvation to a wicked society infected with priestcraft and false religious traditions. If what I just summarized excites you and you look forward to even the possibility of preparing yourself to participate in Gods " strange work' you will understand the appeal ( not of him because he isn't appealing) of his message. If it doesn't you won't ever understand. The question is can you understand the appeal of being part of the greatest thing that has happened to mankind in at least the last 180 years and more accurately in the last 2000 years. That is what all of this is about

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I'm on my cell phone so forgive the awkwardness in this post, if there is one. Twenty some years ago, on my mission, I learned about Joseph Smith's admonition to seek our calling and election until it is made sure. I had thought such a thing was reserved for only for an elite few-for great and noble ones unlike myself. The Spirit taught me otherwise.

After decades of intensive and prayerful study of Joseph Smith's teachings and especially the scriptures and my personal journey to the veil of unbelief, I am confident in my standing thus far before the Lord. There is nothing that any man in any position can do to shake me. If I live to the age of man, I will have read and studied the Book of Mormon hundreds of times. I see the patterns.

Denver, having been along this path, which we all seek, or should seek, having sacrificed everything twice in one lifetime, has connected some dots for me because of his experiences, for which I am grateful. His path is between him and God and I understand his confidence in his position.

I have my own path and whether or not it ever intersects with his makes no difference to me. I have been baptized with fire and I have sung the song of redeeming love. I continually sing the song of redeeming love. The Holy Spirit is my guide and no one else. I have heard the voice of the Lord from time to time. I have dreamed dreams. I am active in my calling and I honor my covenants. I serve cheerfully and elevate the poor and needy every chance I get to the best of my ability.

Why should these things be offensive to fellow disciples of Jesus Christ? He is an equal opportunity Savior. He is eager to offer all these things and more to everyone else. If a simpleton like me can experience these things, so can you.

Marc I just LOVE reading your testimony! :ymhug: