LDS Freedom Forum

Its pretty convenient that Snuffy's bold calls to repentance are directed at other people, like the church leaders or his weird obsession with Nauvooites being prideful, and not his followers. I'm constantly, personally called to repentance by the 15.

Stacy Oliver wrote:Its pretty convenient that Snuffy's bold calls to repentance are directed at other people, like the church leaders or his weird obsession with Nauvooites being prideful, and not his followers. I'm constantly, personally called to repentance by the 15.

Does it do any good ?

I think so

sen6b wrote:

boo wrote:

Stacy Oliver wrote:Its pretty convenient that Snuffy's bold calls to repentance are directed at other people, like the church leaders or his weird obsession with Nauvooites being prideful, and not his followers. I'm constantly, personally called to repentance by the 15.

Does it do any good ?

I'm sure that people heading the words of prophets and apostles has done more good in this world than ds has by the things he has said.

Who are these prophets and apostles you speak of? Seriously, having a title does not make one a prophet or an apostle. Being sustained doesn't make someone a prophet or apostle either.

By their fruits ye shall know them. It was obvious that Joseph Smith was a prophet, seer and revelator. The current leaders of the church have NONE of the qualifications that Joseph Smith had.

There are no revelations. And no, the proclamation on the family does not count. Even the LDS church does not call it a revelation. Also, the current LDS church calls out past leaders of the church, saying they taught false doctrine in regards to the blacks and the priesthood. I guess those guys definitely weren't prophets or apostles if they were so misled.


Seriously, there is NO evidence. All people say is they have this mysterious witness. But no evidence is ever given.

It's fine if you want to believe in the current LDS church, but at least be honest. It's ok to admit there is no modern revelation and there is no actual evidence that the current leaders really are what people claim. If you find it leads you to good, then what's the big deal. But don't pretend like these people have gifts that no one can see. It is childish.

It's amazing to watch the amount of twisted logic that believing Mormons use to claim that these men somehow actually talk to God. While the actual evidence shows quite the contrary. Instead of the leaders coming out and saying they've spoken to God directly, the church publishes anonymous essays to address difficult topics. That is the behavior of cowards.

Abinadi, Lehi, Samuel the Lamanite, Nephi, those guys had guts. The current leaders won't say anything unless they've taken polls and surveys first.

I liked it better when you edified.

So many of you are more and more negative this days.

Relax rewcox.

It's the freakin' internet.

rewcox wrote:I liked it better when you edified.

So many of you are more and more negative this days.

Thanks, Bro Righteous!

Side note - I can't recall a single post of yours (though some may have escaped my radar) the least bit edifying.

The thread about people who have seen Jesus was started by brother Rewcox.

I have thought much about this question. I have read his book about the second comforter. I do not believe he is a prophet.

His appeal is something I have seen others find in other places like avow or other groups like these. The appeal is that the person involved (follower of whoever) is special. That they have special knowledge. That they know things others do not. They are more spiritual than everyone else because of following whatever the person or group is saying. Everyone else is being fooled. If you have watched Denver snuffer followers and what they have posted here you will see these kinds of things. The sad thing is to watch this cycle repeated over and over again. Just a different "leader". Sometimes the same people do this cycle over and over again. People caught in this are completely unable to see they are caught or handle anyone saying anything that threatens their belief in the leader. I think the reason for it is that it would threaten their belief that they are special and different.

Nan wrote:I have thought much about this question. I have read his book about the second comforter. I do not believe he is a prophet.

His appeal is something I have seen others find in other places like avow or other groups like these. The appeal is that the person involved (follower of whoever) is special. That they have special knowledge. That they know things others do not. They are more spiritual than everyone else because of following whatever the person or group is saying. Everyone else is being fooled. If you have watched Denver snuffer followers and what they have posted here you will see these kinds of things. The sad thing is to watch this cycle repeated over and over again. Just a different "leader". Sometimes the same people do this cycle over and over again. People caught in this are completely unable to see they are caught or handle anyone saying anything that threatens their belief in the leader. I think the reason for it is that it would threaten their belief that they are special and different.

Funny, this same exact thing can be said for the other side.

Frederick wrote:
Who are these prophets and apostles you speak of? Seriously, having a title does not make one a prophet or an apostle. Being sustained doesn't make someone a prophet or apostle either.

By their fruits ye shall know them. It was obvious that Joseph Smith was a prophet, seer and revelator. The current leaders of the church have NONE of the qualifications that Joseph Smith had.

There are no revelations. And no, the proclamation on the family does not count. Even the LDS church does not call it a revelation. Also, the current LDS church calls out past leaders of the church, saying they taught false doctrine in regards to the blacks and the priesthood. I guess those guys definitely weren't prophets or apostles if they were so misled.


Seriously, there is NO evidence. All people say is they have this mysterious witness. But no evidence is ever given.

A non LDS person would agree with you on all points, except one. They would also say that Joseph was not a prophet and there is no evidence to suggest he was. That is because, like you, they ignore or reject any evidence that suggests they are prophets.
A witness that they are true prophets, just as Joseph was, comes through faith and the Holy Ghost testifying. To any who have this, it is powerful enough to change us completely.

It's fine if you want to believe in the current LDS church, but at least be honest. It's ok to admit there is no modern revelation and there is no actual evidence that the current leaders really are what people claim. If you find it leads you to good, then what's the big deal. But don't pretend like these people have gifts that no one can see. It is childish.

Yes, it seems like foolishness to some, but not to those who have felt the powerful witness of the spirit to them as they have read their words or heard them speak. No, I won't admit to things that I know are not true through my own experience.

It's amazing to watch the amount of twisted logic that believing Mormons use to claim that these men somehow actually talk to God. While the actual evidence shows quite the contrary. Instead of the leaders coming out and saying they've spoken to God directly, the church publishes anonymous essays to address difficult topics. That is the behavior of cowards.

Every time one of you on this board demands that our leaders TELL YOU about their sacred spiritual experiences or you'll refuse to believe they've had them--I can't help but think of the condemnation in the scriptures of those who sought for signs. That is because some hearts are so hardened they cannot be penetrated and it would be to the individual's detriment to offer more enlightenment they are not able to receive and which they will reject; I'm quite certain you can relate to this--can you not understand that others might feel the same as you do about the spiritual knowledge and witnesses they have had?

Abinadi, Lehi, Samuel the Lamanite, Nephi, those guys had guts. The current leaders won't say anything unless they've taken polls and surveys first.

In your limited knowledge, this is how you perceive them; but it is clear you are painting with a broad and jaundiced brush. You have no idea the lives some of our current leaders and those who followed after Joseph, have lived.

And you do ? What do you know about their lives that the 15 haven't even claimed . Don't claim for others that which they don't claim for themselves. We have words for people like that.

AI2.0,

Honestly, you are very mistaken in many of your comments. Please show me in the scriptures where the prophets refrained from bold testimony. What do you think Lehi said to those around him in Jerusalem? Hey, I had a bunch of experiences that are way too sacred to share, but....you guys are evil, so fix yourselves.

Interestingly, we can see what he said, because he tells us right in the scriptures.

18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard.
19 And it came to pass that the Jews did mock him because of the things which he testified of them; for he truly testified of their wickedness and their abominations; and he testified that the things which he saw and heard, and also the things which he read in the book, manifested plainly of the coming of a Messiah, and also the redemption of the world.
20 And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance. (1 Nephi, Chapter 1)

The scriptures are so full of prophets testifying of things that they've seen an heard, it is utterly ridiculous to claim the modern leaders of the LDS church compare in anyway to those men. The leaders of the LDS church do the exact opposite, they claim to have seen and heard nothing.

And when they don't, you assume they have in their personal lives and they just choose to refrain from telling you. You are placing on them things which they do not claim.

This is not seeking for signs. I do not seek signs. However, I am watchful enough to recognize patterns. I can recognize the difference between what we read in the scriptures and the experience of those in the church today. They aren't the same. It is a lie to claim that those in the lds church routinely experience the same things as people and prophets in the scriptures. It is true that modern LDS leaders said that we shouldn't expect to see the same thing as King Benjamin's people. They say our experience is likely to be more subtle and may take a lifetime to experience. Which means, what ever King Benjamin's people experienced is something completely different than what the LDS leaders teach.

Elder Christofferson wrote:You may ask, Why doesn’t this mighty change happen more quickly with me? You should remember that the remarkable examples of King Benjamin’s people, Alma, and some others in scripture are just that—remarkable and not typical. For most of us, the changes are more gradual and occur over time. Being born again, unlike our physical birth, is more a process than an event. And engaging in that process is the central purpose of mortality.

Frankly, if you experienced what King Benjamin's people experienced, you will have the same mighty change of heart. However, he is right in a way, these experiences are sadly not typical. But that doesn't mean they can't be. It just seems that there are very few who actually find the way. Being a member of the LDS church does not mean that you have found the way. And the LDS church isn't doing a good job in teaching how to find it. They teach you that it's ok if you don't. It's ok if your experience doesn't match the scriptures. That is plain wrong. If you want what the scriptures teach, you should ask to have the same experiences that we read about. Nephi did exactly that, he asked to see the SAME thing his father saw. We each should be taught that each of us should desire and seek to see the SAME thing as Lehi saw. We should each seek for knowledge and to be taught by angels and Christ directly. We do not need men who step between us and God.

Frederick wrote:This is not seeking for signs. I do not seek signs. However, I am watchful enough to recognize patterns. I can recognize the difference between what we read in the scriptures and the experience of those in the church today.

Ah. The differences between "seeking for signs" and seeing signs. Very telling.

Actually the people of King Benjamin were stiff necked and it took some time before they could reach the point of baptism of fire. Their children ended up having problems.

The question becomes, how do you teach getting the BOF?

It doesn't seem to happen just by reading the BOM.

rewcox wrote:Actually the people of King Benjamin were stiff necked and it took some time before they could reach the point of baptism of fire. Their children ended up having problems.

The question becomes, how do you teach getting the BOF?

It doesn't seem to happen just by reading the BOM.

Perhaps a good place to start would be to teach that we can receive and experience the same things as the people in the scriptures.

Maybe it would also be helpful if people were taught what the BOF actually is, and hear testimonies of those who have experienced it. After all, that is what testimony meetings are actually supposed to be for.

I reckon there are lots of things that could be done. Hearing the word of God preached with true power is certainly a facilitator, it worked with King Benjamin and his people. Maybe we aren't actually hearing the word of God preached with true power, if we aren't experiencing the same things as King Benjamin's people. Does that thought ever cross anyone's mind? Why not be bold enough to be honest with where we are as a people?

I'm not sure if you can receive that experience if you don't have a good idea of where you are standing and where you are facing. Perhaps, being taught the word of God In a way that helps you see your true situation. Is that not what King Benjamin did?

16 ¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

"What Lack I Yet"?

One of the most important questions I have found to ask myself is "What Lack I yet"? This question didn't begin to produce immeasurable results until I was willing to accept the response regardless of how much it contradicted my previous knowledge or traditions.

It is our natural state to try to validate and reassure ourselves of what we are doing... these internal validating statements are terrific in justifying how righteous we are. We typically will do that by only looking within the traditional boundaries we have set for ourselves and not accept anything from outside our established sources. The Lord doesn't work within our set boundaries, no matter how concrete we have made them.

16 ¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions

.

It wasn't representative of my current beliefs.

Alma 12:10-11

We receive the lesser portion and fools claim it is the Apostles fault! We as a church have a long standing history of rejecting their counsel. Which is in effect rejecting God's word. You get what you deserve, the lesser portion.

I submit to the brethren of the church and obey to the best of my ability. I know and trust God's word. Who's on the Lord's side? Who?

I wonder if anyone wants to readdress this topic in light of the things Denver has done since 2014?

It's pretty simple, Denver, and a few thousand people who follow his instructions and revelations, believes himself to be the Davidic Servant - the latter-day servant who is foreordained to actually establish Zion - a modern-day Enoch or Melchizedek, if you will. His movement has even published a new version of the scriptures that includes many of Denver's revelations and teachings, one of which was a direct revelation to Denver himself in which the Lord supposedly gives him the name "David" - you can't get much more overt than that.

Personally, I do not believe his claims to be legitimately, objectively, or universally true. I think he, and his followers (those who believe him), are just playing one of the many spiritual games/paths that can be played in this life. I do believe they are having spiritual experiences & confirmations, though, just like everybody else. I just don't think they actually mean what they assume (or pretend to "know") they mean. Much like we, Latter-Day Saints, sometimes or often do.