LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 10:36 am**

Kitkat wrote:This opened my mind enough to allow myself to even consider that their could be some deception in the LDS church. With just a little bit of study and an open mind it became clear to see the way old falsehoods were getting in the way of some of the pure and beautiful truths of the Gospel of Jesus.
.

must be true to some extent....just sushi_s hunches.
:-B

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 10:46 am**

sushi_chef wrote:
Kitkat wrote:This opened my mind enough to allow myself to even consider that their could be some deception in the LDS church. With just a little bit of study and an open mind it became clear to see the way old falsehoods were getting in the way of some of the pure and beautiful truths of the Gospel of Jesus.
.
must be true to some extent....just sushi_s hunches.
:-B

Ever had bad sushi? Yikes!

Please list the deceptions and old falsehoods as you understand them, thanks.

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 10:56 am**

The lds church is not set up like the new testament church as far as i know

Did the New Testament church have a first presidency with twelve apostles under them

For a total of 15

Like the lds do?

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 11:04 am**

Christ said that his kingdom was not of this earth, period. A stand alone statement.
The Church clams that it is Gods kingdom here on earth. A stand alone statement.
Christ said that we were to be in the world, but not of it. A stand alone statement.
Christ said that we were to be a strange and peculiar people. A stand alone statement.
Three out of the four statements are true. Can you find the statement that is not true?
I believe that the Church is more or less the same thing that the people who were following Moses got, after they also refused Gods invitation.
The BOM even refers to this being the case, when it warns the reader to be careful, not, not to think themselves better than the children of Israel under Moses. The ones that missed true prophets (including Christ)and worshiped false prophets.
Denver, has come along and said some amassing things, to be sure. I do believe he is not acting on his own, however. He is led by either God or Satan. He has either risen up in the manor the Gospel invites us all to, or he has been deceived by the devil, and will crash soon. I have not seen anyone bring the scriptures to life, as he has done. Not sense JS. I have not seen anyone teach the true Gospel of Christ, sense the 1830s, as he has done. The everlasting impact of rejecting or accepting the teachings he is putting forth is enormous, not only on a personal level, but on a worldly level. Please study your scriptures. Open the word of God and ask him the meaning of his words. Ask the lord what the teachings were, that the Lord would not let Nephi and other prophets tell us. There are so many signs that point to the truth, that anyone that takes Religion serious can not miss. To miss them is to dam up the truth, and close the eyes and ears to it. However God has said that if you are luke warm, he will pour out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and close close your eyes. Isa 66:4, and 2 Thes 2:11

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 11:39 am**

rewcox wrote:Please list the deceptions and old falsehoods as you understand them, thanks.

urrr....will....might....see....before millennium.
:-B

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 3:31 pm**

AI2.0 wrote:
boo wrote: Did you graduate from Seminary ?
Yes Boo, I graduated from Seminary, what point you are trying to make?

Boo, Thomas and hyloglyph, you all seem to dismiss the need for Apostles.

Question: If you are still active LDS and have Bishop interviews, would you admit this belief to your Bishop? Would you tell him that you don't believe it is necessary for the church to have a First Presidency and 12 Apostles? Would you show him your evidence and tell him WHY you believe this? I seriously doubt it.

I'm sick of arguing what should be a non-issue. In the CofJCofLDS, They ARE necessary, and everyone with even a cursory knowledge (they don't even need to have attended Seminary) of church doctrine knows this.

Ah the assumptions we make which may obscure our vision.Congrats on Seminary. I grow up in an area and in a time when it was practicably impossible to do so. Both my sons did and i notice a certain rigidity in them which is a bit unsettling. In any event I am not ,contrary to your articulated assumption denying the apparent need for an organizational structure if you need an organization .The indication we have from the Savior is that to carry on missionary work we should have 12 apostles. I haven't read the entire thread so if I am plowing old ground forgive me but the way the 12 function today is in my view contrary to scripture in both ancient and modern revelations See D&C 107:36 -37.The 12 are equal to but not superior to typical stake high councils .That is the word of the Lord . The present practice is an accumulated false custom for which my ggggrand uncle BY is largely responsible. Look at the 12 in the Saviors time as well as in Josephs . They were not primarily an administrative body making policy decisions and running an ecclesiastical empire and being handsomely rewarded for it . This is not to demean the brethren . I am related to several of both past and present GAs and with a few exceptions think well of them. But throughout the scriptures they were a missionary force continually spread throughout the world. Not a bunch of guys sitting around a table making up policy guidelines. If you respond please deal with D&C 107; 37 . In addition I don't think that they are necessary for our salvation . Nephi .Mormon .Brother of Jared.Moses , John the Baptist and Joseph Smith didn't need them and on an individual basis neither do we. Oh and yes to answer your implied question I have a temple recommend, yes I am a Temple worker ,as well as scoutmaster and yes my bishop and SP know my views on the issue of ecclesiastical leadership. So does everyone in my ward who heard me bear my testimony Sunday on the importance of receiving "the testimony of Jesus" in this life and how no man can stand between our Savior and us and we must not rely on men .Sorry if this disappoints you. Fortunately it does not disappoint those who matter.

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 3:53 pm**

Ezra wrote:Why are people so drawn to denver. Because he is ____________!

Fill in the blank.

very similar to zeezrom.

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 4:08 pm**

Berrett wrote:In order to teach about eternal life you need to have eternal life. total rot, we can learn about it from the scriptures and the prophets Snuffer teaches how to obtain eternal life with power. Very few others do. I first started reading Snuffer in 2009. I was drawn to him because he is so far advanced of where I was and am. He is full of power. (power or charisma, persuasion, or a very gifted communicator of the same spirit as Zeezrom before his conversion?) I had spent many years studying the gospel quite seriously. I can no longer attempt to draw water from empty cisterns. Snuffer is the real deal. I have read a lot of his blog, he certainly adds denverisms to interpretations of the scriptures. I know from what I have read on his blog that he does teach false doctrine, so he is not the real deal. If he was, he would not have to make up things or present his speculation as fact His appeal is he is full of knowledge and knowledge is power. I read a blog of someone that has been to one of denvers lectures and is sympathetic to some of denvers views, however he did not like that many of denvers views are presented without denver actually saying one way or another if he agrees with what he just said, he leaves it to the audience to make their own conclusions, that is deceitful. He also mentioned about people who attended not having a strong knowledge of the gospel, this make many of them vulnerable to subtle suggestions which have the effect of destroying confidence and faith in the church due to their ignorance. And he doesn't mind sharing. Of course not, the GA's love to share their knowledge too what's your point? And he is a lawyer.well that seals the deal then Like I said, he is like a modern day zeezrom, very learned in language so he knows how to communicate with people to get the response he wants, he may not get them all but he knows that in all probability, he will get the ignorant, the vulnerable, the dissidents and possibly even the very elect.

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 4:16 pm**

Ezra wrote:Why are people so drawn to denver. Because he is reminiscent!

Fill in the blank.

I love mad libs. I used a random word generator to get that one. My next 2 words on the random word generator were simple, and divine. True story.

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 5:22 pm**

The random word generator gave me "adusted."

Didn't even know that was a word.

Next word was "sauce."

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 5:55 pm**

jbalm wrote:The random word generator gave me "adusted."

Didn't even know that was a word.

Next word was "sauce."

That's a good description of Denver, "He helps us feast on the Gospel because he is the Sauce" ;)

Posted: **November 10th, 2014, 6:04 pm**

Steve Clark wrote:
Ezra wrote:Why are people so drawn to denver. Because he is reminiscent!

Fill in the blank.
I love mad libs. I used a random word generator to get that one. My next 2 words on the random word generator were simple, and divine. True story.

Haha

Awesome

Posted: **November 11th, 2014, 4:54 pm**

AI2.0 wrote:I believe some feel that Denver is simply teaching LDS a 'higher way', but he's not. With his misinterpretation of D&C 76:74 he is constructing a new and different doctrine; one that is in contradiction to LDS beliefs. The scriptures teach that Baptism is the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom (see D&C 76:51 and Bible Dictionary), not having one's calling and election made sure. This WILL happen, before we enter into God's presence, but for the majority who have lived on earth, it will not happen until they leave this life.

What Denver is teaching negates all our temple work. It relegates the bulk of all good, righteous church members to the Terestrial (and I've seen some even claim Telestial) Kingdom--all because they did not know they were supposed to be doing everything they could to see Christ in this life! 'Just' people who received Baptism in the proper manner, by one having authority, and received the gift of the holy ghost, they lived their lives following Christ, serving and loving others--and were too busy caring for others to spend the huge amount of effort on trying to have a vision so they could see Christ. But they did not see him in the flesh so, in Denver's view, too bad for them.

So I admittedly haven't read this whole thread, but came across this post and couldn't let it slide.

Please prayerfully re-read D&C 76, as many times as necessary until you figure this out, as it is clear you are missing something crucially important.

Baptism is NOT the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom. Baptism is the GATE to the strait and narrow PATH that leads to eternal life, or the kingdom of God (ie Celestial). Please study 2nd Nephi 31 and 32 for reference.

In section 76, concerning those whose glory is celestial and who will come forth in the resurrection of the just:

V.51:

Received the testimony of Jesus
Believed on his name
Were baptized after the manner of his burial according to the commandment which he gave

V.52:

Kept the commandments so they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins
Received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands

V.53:

Overcame by faith
Are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (ie Calling and Election made sure)

V.54:

Are the church of the Firstborn

These scriptures do NOT teach that baptism is the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom, or that you qualify for celestial glory through baptism alone. These scriptures DO teach that along with baptism, you MUST have your calling and election made sure, or you have NO promise of celestial glory.

And as regards D&C 76:74, speaking of those whose glory is Terrestrial, which states, "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it,"

I would suggest that you turn back to 2nd Nephi 32 and re-read it as many times as necessary until you understand what Nephi is saying. Pay particular attention to verses 5-8. Then take this to the Lord in humble prayer.

If you think you already know the answer or you think you don't need to pray about it, I would ask you to which spirit are you hearkening? (v.8) Go and read verses 5-8 again until they truly sink deep into your soul, and PRAY.

What is the testimony of Jesus? He answered this question himself in D&C 88. He gave this promise in verse 68:

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Then He explained His testimony in verses 74-75:

74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;

75 That I may testify (who may testify? Christ may testify) unto your Father, and your God, and my God, (testify of what?) that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, (what promise?) this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, (that He will show His face unto you) when I will.

Can you not hear and understand?

D&C 132:22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, (WHY???) because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

This is not about Denver Snuffer. This is about whether or not you believe the words of Christ.

2 Nephi 32:7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

Posted: **November 11th, 2014, 4:57 pm**

What DS has taught does not negate temple work. He diligently performed temple work for his own deceased relatives. Try again.

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 3:26 pm**

Bill wrote:Hi, this is an honest question; and not an attempt to be tricky, snarky or devious. I am hearing about more and more people looking into his movement.

What is the appeal of Denver Snuffer; and his ideas?

Have the people who have joined his movement already mentally left the LDS Church and are just finding another boat to ride; or are they actually satisfied with the LDS Church and Snuffer's message/persona is so strong that they are willing to leave the Church?

For those who have mentally left the LDS Chruch; why do most of them still try to be part of the LDS Church; why the wordsmithing in Temple Recommend interviews so that they can keep their recommends when they know they don't support the brethren as apostles etc.

Have some folks who have joined actually have an "angel" come down and say he is Christ and that they should leave the LDS Church? (I am not talking about Denver; but the folks who follow him).

Is there a polygamy aspect to the new movement?

I am honestly curious. I have read many of Denver's postings on his Blog and don't see the appeal. I am not looking for another boat so to speak just intellectually curious about the movements appeal.

Denver Snuffer appeals to those who are believers in the restoration, yet have become increasingly uncomfortable with how far the Current LDS church has moved away from the teachings of Joseph Smith. Denver emphasizes depending less on the leadership of the church and more on personal experience with the divine. His teachings add depth for many church members who have become bored and unfulfilled by following the correlated watered down, sanitized, one size fits all approach the church curriculum has devolved into.

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 4:15 pm**

I'd never heard of him till I joined this forum. Seems to have gotten into a lot of trouble for his criticisms of the brethren, and the church. Unfortunate surname.

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 4:37 pm**

mhewett wrote:
Ezra wrote:Why are people so drawn to denver. Because he is ____________!

Fill in the blank.
very similar to zeezrom.

Why were/people so drawn to Samuel the lamanite or Alma. Because he is________!

Oh.. wait.. they were cast out... they are an interesting "Type"... that couldn't happen in our day!

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 4:56 pm**

KMCopeland wrote:Unfortunate surname.

No doubt. The first few times I saw his name mentioned, I thought everyone was talking about a serial killer in Colorado.

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 5:03 pm**

Sigus wrote:
..... His teachings add depth for many church members who have become bored ..........

I bet you that there is a lot of truth in just that short little statement.

What is Denver's current position on abortion, gay marriage and polygamy.

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 5:42 pm**

Bill wrote:
Sigus wrote:
..... His teachings add depth for many church members who have become bored ..........

I bet you that there is a lot of truth in just that short little statement.

What is Denver's current position on abortion, gay marriage and polygamy.

Why would anyone give a rats .... what Denver thinks about these things?

Honestly, there are many good authors out there. LDS people read books by people who are not church leaders all the time. Why don't we ask, 'what is the appeal of that John Bytheway character?' I mean, personally I think the stuff that guy writes is crap, but some people like him.

If anyone bases their beliefs because of what some author said, their beliefs are misplaced.

Frankly, it is so freaking obvious the LDS church is fraught with problems and is not the same religion that Joseph founded, that anyone who thinks otherwise has just not investigated the matter seriously enough. The Lectures on Faith by themselves are a good enough example to illustrate that. Either the LDS people think Joseph was wrong in Lecture Five, they ignore what he said, or most often have no clue what the Lectures are or what is in them.

The difference between John Bytheway and Denver Snuffer is one author pats you on the back and tells you you're doing great, and the other writes in a way that can cause one to be moved to a position of discomfort, or seriously question long held beliefs.

The scriptures speak for themselves. Scripture study alone can lead you to the truth. Of course, the LDS church is abandoning that in favor of studying scripture themes, picking verses that support their current views, which is nothing more than proof texting.
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/1 ... curriculum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Denver is not important. It doesn't matter what he says. The only thing that matters is what the scriptures say, and the scriptures do not speak favorably about the church today.

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 7:13 pm**

How does Denver Snuffer feel about polygamy?

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 7:25 pm**

decontextualized proof-texting...http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/1 ... curriculum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What the heck does that even mean!? What happened to receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking with the tongue of angels??

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 7:32 pm**

coachmarc wrote:
decontextualized proof-texting...http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/1 ... curriculum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What the heck does that even mean!? What happened to receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking with the tongue of angels??

Silly coachmarc. Speaking with the tongue of angels is just for those extreme Book of Mormon type people. We don't need that stuff in our day. (My paraphrase of Elder U's recent talk).

Posted: **November 12th, 2014, 11:07 pm**

13 years ago a profound experience happened one night. This experience led an atheist and severely rebellious 12 year old girl to believe in God and the Savior Jesus Christ. Not only that, but it led to this girl realizing that God had the most loving and tender feelings for her. He had forgiven her for her sins, and He had cleansed her, every wit. She referred to this experience for many many years afterwards as her conversion. She was, after all, a 100% different person and everyone she knew took notice.

Growing up in a predominately LDS community, she believed her experience meant Mormonism was true. It taught of Jesus, and she felt the Spirit--for the first time in her life-- very strongly when doing traditional Mormon things (reading the BoM, praying to Heavenly Father, singing and listening to hymns, partaking of the sacrament, teaching others of Jesus Christ and His atonement, and teaching others of the BoM etc.) She became an avid believer and missionary in the LDS church. She served for years as counselor in Beehives and Miamaids, and finally became the Laurel president. She handed out The Book of Mormon to people out in public places. Her faith was never based on this thing we call a 'church', though. It was always founded upon Jesus Christ. It wasn't for 2 years after her 'conversion' that she learned of Joseph Smith and felt the Spirit burn the truth that this man was a prophet of God into her soul.

After her conversion she always had a very deep and personal relationship with The Lord. Prayer was always her favorite time of day and she was the happiest person she knew because of her relationship to God. Because her relationship with God made her so happy, she was always trying to share her beliefs with others so they could taste of this goodness for themselves.

For years she read Hugh Nibley and watched FARMS lecture videos about ancient scripture. She was an avid student of the gospel Restored by Joseph Smith. She started attending institute at 16 and graduated from institute in 1 1/2 years time. In institute, her favorite teacher taught her the doctrine of the Second Comforter, The Lectures on Faith, about Calling and Election being made sure, and deep lectures about what Faith really was, among other things. The spirit was always intense and exceedingly strong with this humble man and equally strong was the Spirit in the classes.

For years she was a little confused at why many LDS people had little understanding of the spiritual side of the Book of Mormon. There was a deliciousness in the Book of Mormon and she couldn't get enough! One day in YW during scripture sharing moment, she shared Ether 4:7. She said with great enthusiasm, "Do you see what this is saying? We can have everything the Brother of Jared had. We can see the Savior in this life like he did!" It was met by many stares, and put the whole room into an awkward silence. They moved on after several seconds without commenting.

Later in life she got married in the temple and became second counselor of the Relief Society in an Idaho Falls ward building at the age of 22. She had great understanding of the Book of Mormon and taught from the standard works with great zeal. Little by little, she found that her understanding of the gospel differed here and there from the mainstream church.

In 2012 she found a website with folks who had had similar experiences to hers when she was 12. This was referred to as the Baptism by Fire. For YEARS she tried explaining to Stake Presidents, bishops, seminary teachers, college professors at BYUI, and others that inquired of her conversion. None of them ever really had much to say about her experience. Just polite nods and moving the conversation to a different topic. Interesting that the Bap. of Fire that led her into the church was never talked about in the church. BUT IT WAS SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL AND CORE PRINCIPLE TO THE GOSPEL THAT JOSEPH SMITH RESTORED! It was everywhere in the scriptures.

The Lord asked her to attend ALL of Denver Snuffers lectures at the end of 2013, and she made it to 6 out of the 10. In all her years of study, nothing Denver Snuffer taught contradicted what she had learned in her studies. In addition, he opened up the path of revelation even stronger for her during the lectures. She felt well fed and very happy after attending. These things led her into further action.

Denver Snuffer has very little to do with her spiritual journey, and she left the Relief Society presidency before ever hearing his name. However, because Denver Snuffer speaks the words of God much like the prophet Joseph Smith, she feels that she is a part of something much MUCH bigger than her and much much grander than she can comprehend...and that is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

He is real. The heavens are opened for business, and God wants to have a personal relationship with each of His children. He wants us to realize how close and accessible He is. He wants us to be HAPPY! I don't know any happier message than coming to know God for ourselves and receiving Him in the flesh and not at some future point. The scriptures are delicious and all good fruit produces good fruit.

The idea that the highest will fall the hardest and other like "mormon-isms" produces fear when one looks outside the hierarchy of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. With God, we are not afraid, but follow wherever He may lead. The fact of the matter is, are you connecting with heaven? Not your bishop, not your stake president, not your current LDS prophet, but are YOU? If you are not, then maybe you need to try, try again. This earth life isn't about passing our agency and trust into the hands of a man, no matter how godly and righteous he may be. It is about us coming to Him. Nothing else satisfies our spirits. Nothing else deepens our minds. Everything else is superficial and will end after this life is done and over with. Everything else will only bring shallow temporary happiness, being lulled away into a carnal sleep, but will never produce true Joy.

God bless you all, no matter where you stand as far as Denver is concerned. The important thing is where do you stand before God.

I love you all,

--Katy-did

Posted: **November 13th, 2014, 6:18 am**

iWitness wrote:13 years ago a profound experience happened one night. This experience led an atheist and severely rebellious 12 year old girl to believe in God and the Savior Jesus Christ. Not only that, but it led to this girl realizing that God had the most loving and tender feelings for her. He had forgiven her for her sins, and He had cleansed her, every wit. She referred to this experience for many many years afterwards as her conversion. She was, after all, a 100% different person and everyone she knew took notice.

I love you all,

--Katy-did

I agree, the BOF is key.

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