LDS Freedom Forum

These revelations were arranged for publication by Brothers Joseph Smith, Sydney Rigdon, Orson Hyde and others, in Hiram, Ohio, while I was there, were sent to Independence to be published, and were printed just exactly as they were arranged by Brother Joseph and the others. And when the Book of Commandments was printed, Joseph and the church received it as being printed correctly. This I know. In the winter of 1834 they saw that some of the revelations in the Book of Commandments had to be changed, because the heads of the church had gone too far, and had done things in which they had already gone ahead of some of the former revelations. So the book of “Doctrine and Covenants” was printed in 1835, and some of the revelations changed and added to. By the providence of God I have one of the old Book of Commandments published in 1833. I will prove by a revelation in it, which is changed in the Doctrine and Covenants, a revelation that was given through the “stone” and is true — I will prove that God called Brother Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon only, and that he was not called to organize and establish the church any more than the rest of us Elders. That God commanded him that he should pretend to no other gift but to translate the Book of Mormon, that God would grant him no other gift

I will also show by a revelation in the Book of Commandments — afterwards changed in the Doctrine and Covenants — that we were commanded to rely upon the “things which are written” in building up the church; for “in them are all things written concerning my church, my gospel, and my rock. Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, my gospel, and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.” But we did not rely upon the written word in building up the church; but Joseph went “on in the persuasions of men,” — as he did while translating, and heeded Rigdon who showed him that high priests and other offices should be added to “elders, priests and teachers;” and so we did not establish His (Christ’s) church, His gospel and His rock, so the gates of hell did prevail against the church, and it finally landed in Salt Lake in polygamy.

This revelation as it is in the Book of Commandments, speaks of the duties of all the spiritual officers in the church; of elders, priests and teachers; but does not mention a word about the office of high priest, president of the high priesthood, high counselors, etc. The part added to this revelation was put there to give the duties of these high officers in ordinations. I repeat that the church never heard of or thought of having in it any of these offices, until we moved to Kirtland, Ohio, in the days of Sidney Rigdon. The Church of Christ upon either continent had no such offices in it, and Christ told us through the stone that he would establish his church “LIKE UNTO THE CHURCH WHICH WAS TAUGHT BY MY DISCIPLES IN THE DAYS OF OLD.”….”If the people of this generation harden not their hearts.”

This is why many of the brethren came to me after Brother Joseph was killed, and importuned me to come out and lead the church. I refused to do so. Christ is the only leader and head of his church. http://www.weepingforzion.com/david-whi ... t-part-13/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wrsales wrote:
When cultural conditioning teaches you that the spirit is "good" feelings and evil is "bad" feelings then once you have a "bad" feeling you run for the exit, as most of the TBM's do when they read DS.

The people who persevere and look for truth no matter how painful it becomes tend to come way with greater understanding and greater appreciation for our Lord and our scriptures.

I'm not trying to say these are proven facts, I am just stating my observations.

Now do your thing, and tell me how wrong I am.

The twelve at Jerusalem are called in the written word “Apostles.” They are apostles because they were special witnesses to the sufferings of Christ, His death, burial and resurrection: but the twelve which Christ chose on this land are called disciples or elders, and are not once called apostles in the Book of Mormon. In the revelation which came through the stone in June, 1829, to Oliver Cowdery and myself to search out the twelve, they are also called disciples, and not apostles; and the revelation says “disciples” in the Book of Commandments to-day. But it has been changed in the Doctrine and Covenants to read “apostles.” The heading to this revelation in the Book of Commandments says: “Making known the calling of twelve ‘Disciples’ in these last days.” In the Doctrines and Covenants to reads: “Making known the calling of twelve ‘Apostles’ in these last days.” In 1 Nephi iii:26, where reference is made to the twelve at Jerusalem and the twelve upon this land, each twelve are called by their respective names: “Behold the twelve ‘Disciples’ of the Lamb, who are chosen to minister unto thy seed. And he (the angel) said unto me, thou remembereth the twelve ‘Apostles’ of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel: wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them.” The twelve on this land are called disciples, and not in any place are they called apostles. When Christ was teaching the twelve on this land, in giving them instructions He refers to the way His twelve apostles did at Jerusalem in the laying on of hands, saying to them: “For thus do mine apostles.”

In 1 Cor. xii:28, it says: “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets,” etc. He did so, placing the twelve apostles first, which he chose at Jerusalem: they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, and they are to judge the twelve disciples whom Christ chose on this land among the Nephites. Therefore, we see from the written word that there is only one twelve who are called apostles, and that they are placed first.

When it is God’s own due time to gather up the scattered fragments of his kingdom which has been laid waste by men, then we suppose that God will place at the head of his church twelve disciples; but we of the Church of Christ will not place them there, unless God so commands us. This is God’s work and not man’s work. We do not believe in twelve man-made disciples.

Thomas wrote:

These revelations were arranged for publication by Brothers Joseph Smith, Sydney Rigdon, Orson Hyde and others, in Hiram, Ohio, while I was there, were sent to Independence to be published, and were printed just exactly as they were arranged by Brother Joseph and the others. And when the Book of Commandments was printed, Joseph and the church received it as being printed correctly. This I know. In the winter of 1834 they saw that some of the revelations in the Book of Commandments had to be changed, because the heads of the church had gone too far, and had done things in which they had already gone ahead of some of the former revelations. So the book of “Doctrine and Covenants” was printed in 1835, and some of the revelations changed and added to. By the providence of God I have one of the old Book of Commandments published in 1833. I will prove by a revelation in it, which is changed in the Doctrine and Covenants, a revelation that was given through the “stone” and is true — I will prove that God called Brother Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon only, and that he was not called to organize and establish the church any more than the rest of us Elders. That God commanded him that he should pretend to no other gift but to translate the Book of Mormon, that God would grant him no other gift

I will also show by a revelation in the Book of Commandments — afterwards changed in the Doctrine and Covenants — that we were commanded to rely upon the “things which are written” in building up the church; for “in them are all things written concerning my church, my gospel, and my rock. Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, my gospel, and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.” But we did not rely upon the written word in building up the church; but Joseph went “on in the persuasions of men,” — as he did while translating, and heeded Rigdon who showed him that high priests and other offices should be added to “elders, priests and teachers;” and so we did not establish His (Christ’s) church, His gospel and His rock, so the gates of hell did prevail against the church, and it finally landed in Salt Lake in polygamy.

This revelation as it is in the Book of Commandments, speaks of the duties of all the spiritual officers in the church; of elders, priests and teachers; but does not mention a word about the office of high priest, president of the high priesthood, high counselors, etc. The part added to this revelation was put there to give the duties of these high officers in ordinations. I repeat that the church never heard of or thought of having in it any of these offices, until we moved to Kirtland, Ohio, in the days of Sidney Rigdon. The Church of Christ upon either continent had no such offices in it, and Christ told us through the stone that he would establish his church “LIKE UNTO THE CHURCH WHICH WAS TAUGHT BY MY DISCIPLES IN THE DAYS OF OLD.”….”If the people of this generation harden not their hearts.”

http://www.weepingforzion.com/david-whi ... t-part-14/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Whitmer claims history was rewritten to cover for changes made later, after Rigdon and the Cambellites joined with the church.

You can find much more information on the Cambellite effect in the book, A Cultural History of The Book of Mormon, by Daymon Smith. He has documented news paper articles and other information on Ridgon and the Cambellites.

Whitmer did not lead any church. He joined with one but did not lead.Did I say he 'led' a church? I said he 'resurrected' a church--and he set up his nephew to lead it. Happy now?

This is why many of the brethren came to me after Brother Joseph was killed, and importuned me to come out and lead the church. I refused to do so. Christ is the only leader and head of his church. http://www.weepingforzion.com/david-whi ... t-part-13/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thomas wrote:More from Whitmer:

The twelve at Jerusalem are called in the written word “Apostles.” They are apostles because they were special witnesses to the sufferings of Christ, His death, burial and resurrection: but the twelve which Christ chose on this land are called disciples or elders, and are not once called apostles in the Book of Mormon. In the revelation which came through the stone in June, 1829, to Oliver Cowdery and myself to search out the twelve, they are also called disciples, and not apostles; and the revelation says “disciples” in the Book of Commandments to-day. But it has been changed in the Doctrine and Covenants to read “apostles.” The heading to this revelation in the Book of Commandments says: “Making known the calling of twelve ‘Disciples’ in these last days.” In the Doctrines and Covenants to reads: “Making known the calling of twelve ‘Apostles’ in these last days.” In 1 Nephi iii:26, where reference is made to the twelve at Jerusalem and the twelve upon this land, each twelve are called by their respective names: “Behold the twelve ‘Disciples’ of the Lamb, who are chosen to minister unto thy seed. And he (the angel) said unto me, thou remembereth the twelve ‘Apostles’ of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel: wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them.” The twelve on this land are called disciples, and not in any place are they called apostles. When Christ was teaching the twelve on this land, in giving them instructions He refers to the way His twelve apostles did at Jerusalem in the laying on of hands, saying to them: “For thus do mine apostles.”I know some like to distinguish between 'disciples' and 'apostles'...I'm not one of them, this doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

In 1 Cor. xii:28, it says: “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets,” etc. He did so, placing the twelve apostles first, which he chose at Jerusalem: they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, and they are to judge the twelve disciples whom Christ chose on this land among the Nephites. Therefore, we see from the written word that there is only one twelve who are called apostles, and that they are placed first.

When it is God’s own due time to gather up the scattered fragments of his kingdom which has been laid waste by men, then we suppose that God will place at the head of his church twelve disciples; but we of the Church of Christ will not place them there, unless God so commands us. This is God’s work and not man’s work. We do not believe in twelve man-made disciples.

Thomas wrote:Not quite sure what you mean by lost his testimony. He seems to be a strong believer in Christ.

rewcox wrote:As I have stated many times, if you were nice, people might listen.

ajax wrote:

rewcox wrote:As I have stated many times, if you were nice, people might listen.

This certainly can't be your only measure to gauge truth. Else what do you do with people like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, John the Baptist and Jesus? - Who quite frankly were downright mean sometimes, to the leaders, calling them all sorts of names in an effort to expose false teaching and tradition. I guess that could partly be why people hated them, and cast them out and killed them.

AI2.0 wrote:

wrsales wrote:
When cultural conditioning teaches you that the spirit is "good" feelings and evil is "bad" feelings then once you have a "bad" feeling you run for the exit, as most of the TBM's do when they read DS.

The people who persevere and look for truth no matter how painful it becomes tend to come way with greater understanding and greater appreciation for our Lord and our scriptures.

I'm not trying to say these are proven facts, I am just stating my observations.

Now do your thing, and tell me how wrong I am.

Well, if you don't want me to tell you you're wrong, then stop being wrong! :p

First, your description of how 'TBMs' determine truth is condescending and dismissive, which is one reason why it is hard to have a civil conversation--I expect that with this kind of opinion of me and other TBM's, you might be rolling your eyes at everything I say, but I'll try anyway.

To clarify; I personally do not look for a 'bad' feeling or a 'good' feeling. I read the material, then judge it by the standards that I know to be true--the scriptures. And that, is when I first determined that Denver Snuffer was no prophet and was not teaching truth. When I read his claim that one must see Christ, while living, or they cannot go to the Celestial Kingdom, I knew he was preaching false doctrine. Since then, as I've read his writings, I've also seen how he has set himself up as an accuser of our church leaders and he twists and reinterprets scripture, claiming it means something which it does not. Now, he's discarded some of our teachings--the Lord's even the commandment to pay tithing(3 Ne 24:8)! And the last nail in the coffin was his claim to revelation in May 2014 regarding the rejection of our 12 apostles and First Presidency and all that entails.

So, you see, for me, this is not about feelings, it's about what I know to be true.

Thomas wrote:There are no Apostles in the Book of Mormon. No First Presidency. No Seventies.

Jules wrote: Interesting, that's one of the things that I've found for myself to be true - and Denver's witness, that was validated by the Holy Ghost, helped me to KNOW that I can and am supposed to know the Lord personally in this life. However, the way you have it worded here is not exactly accurate and needs some foundation and clarification and further information for it to be an entirely true statement. But yes, we are supposed to know the Lord IN THIS LIFE, and he brings us to God. That's the fullness - that's what the temple endowment demonstrates with its symbolism.

Thomas wrote:There are no Apostles in the Book of Mormon. No First Presidency. No Seventies.

AI2.0 wrote:

Thomas wrote:There are no Apostles in the Book of Mormon. No First Presidency. No Seventies.

Let's just clarify. Are you inferring that Apostles, the first presidency, Seventies etc. are not necessary because they are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon? Are you an active, believing member of the Mainstream LDS church?

If you are not active, believing LDS, then fine. You can say they are not necessary, you can believe whatever you want, but if you claim to be a believing mainstream LDS church member, then you know that the church is built on the same organization as existed in the primitive church--and that includes a President and counselors (Peter, James and John) 12 Apostles and others who serve under the priesthood and this system is a big factor in the church being a 'restoration' of Christ's church. There is no question that in the LDS faith they ARE necessary.

AI2.0 wrote:

Thomas wrote:There are no Apostles in the Book of Mormon. No First Presidency. No Seventies.

Let's just clarify. Are you inferring that Apostles, the first presidency, Seventies etc. are not necessary because they are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon? Are you an active, believing member of the Mainstream LDS church?

If you are not active, believing LDS, then fine. You can say they are not necessary, you can believe whatever you want, but if you claim to be a believing mainstream LDS church member, then you know that the church is built on the same organization as existed in the primitive church--and that includes a President and counselors (Peter, James and John) 12 Apostles and others who serve under the priesthood and this system is a big factor in the church being a 'restoration' of Christ's church. There is no question that in the LDS faith they ARE necessary.

AI2.0 wrote:

Thomas wrote:There are no Apostles in the Book of Mormon. No First Presidency. No Seventies.

Let's just clarify. Are you inferring that Apostles, the first presidency, Seventies etc. are not necessary because they are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon? Are you an active, believing member of the Mainstream LDS church?

If you are not active, believing LDS, then fine. You can say they are not necessary, you can believe whatever you want, but if you claim to be a believing mainstream LDS church member, then you know that the church is built on the same organization as existed in the primitive church--and that includes a President and counselors (Peter, James and John) 12 Apostles and others who serve under the priesthood and this system is a big factor in the church being a 'restoration' of Christ's church. There is no question that in the LDS faith they ARE necessary.

boo wrote:Did you graduate from Seminary ?

boo wrote: Did you graduate from Seminary ?

Ezra wrote:Why are people so drawn to denver. Because he is ____________!

Fill in the blank.

AI2.0 wrote:

wrsales wrote:
When cultural conditioning teaches you that the spirit is "good" feelings and evil is "bad" feelings then once you have a "bad" feeling you run for the exit, as most of the TBM's do when they read DS.

The people who persevere and look for truth no matter how painful it becomes tend to come way with greater understanding and greater appreciation for our Lord and our scriptures.

I'm not trying to say these are proven facts, I am just stating my observations.

Now do your thing, and tell me how wrong I am.

Well, if you don't want me to tell you you're wrong, then stop being wrong! :p

First, your description of how 'TBMs' determine truth is condescending and dismissive, which is one reason why it is hard to have a civil conversation--I expect that with this kind of opinion of me and other TBM's, you might be rolling your eyes at everything I say, but I'll try anyway.

To clarify; I personally do not look for a 'bad' feeling or a 'good' feeling. I read the material, then judge it by the standards that I know to be true--the scriptures. And that, is when I first determined that Denver Snuffer was no prophet and was not teaching truth. When I read his claim that one must see Christ, while living, or they cannot go to the Celestial Kingdom, I knew he was preaching false doctrine. Since then, as I've read his writings, I've also seen how he has set himself up as an accuser of our church leaders and he twists and reinterprets scripture, claiming it means something which it does not. Now, he's discarded some of our teachings--the Lord's even the commandment to pay tithing(3 Ne 24:8)! And the last nail in the coffin was his claim to revelation in May 2014 regarding the rejection of our 12 apostles and First Presidency and all that entails.

So, you see, for me, this is not about feelings, it's about what I know to be true.