What is the appeal of Denver Snuffer?

[boo]

Thomas i agree .I like mormon 8 because Moroni explicitly says he is talking to those who are of our generation

[Thomas]

Old ways will be done away with. Zion will come. The Second Coming of Christ ushers in a new age. I would not be looking for things to follow the same pattern as the past. The earth will be raised to a Terrestrial state.

[Stacy Oliver]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

[SAM]

I don't have anything against Elder Oaks and I liked a lot of this talk, but once he started patting us all on the back like we were good enough (because we aren't, we haven't even come close to building Zion) it made me cringe. I am glad there are people (from all sorts of belief systems) who are willing to give. We need more of that from everywhere and we should encourage it, but we aren't better than any other organization in this department and we shouldn't be publicly congratulating ourselves for what we do. We should quietly be going about our business and trying to be even better, IMO.

Saying that we're doing good is not at all the same thing as saying that we're doing good enough. And don't Snufferites want more disclosure about church finances?

You're right, it isn't the same, but a lot of people take it that way and it breeds complacency :/

Good point about the financial accountability though. Maybe we can have another talk next conference about how good members are at paying their tithing and give us some figures on how much they're bringing in each year, or maybe a talk that applauds the amazing business skills of so many leaders, and they can list out the church's latest investments I would just prefer sticking to how the D&C outlines financial disclosure in the church should be handled. Anyway, I don't think that is much of a DS complaint. There are lots of sub-categorized LDS people calling for it. In the end, I don't stay up at night worrying too much about how the church handles its finances, but I do recognize the system for disclosure has been changed without going through the proper channels outlined in the D&C to change doctrine.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

BroJones has an opinion that he chooses to adhere to, but if you are using his opinion as a gauge for gospel truth, you are relying on the arm of flesh and making him your idol, right?

I like BroJones but he is not my idol. I also like the leaders, they also are not idols.

You are also fine to have your opinions.

For some reason, some of you have this need to complain or murmur about the leaders.

To get to what Bill is asking about, i think this comes from PTHG and other comments DS makes, like in the tenth part. And while the group "knows" the standard answers, ya'll are quite enamored with DS.

You yourself tried to use BroJones as an authority and a gauge to "prove" that DS is "off". That is setting him up as an idol.

For some reason, some of you have this need to defend the leaders even when they are wrong.

[Thomas]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

No because the precepts given in the Book of Mormon were given unto me by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[SAM]

Thomas i agree .I like mormon 8 because Moroni explicitly says he is talking to those who are of our generation

I read Mormon 8 last night. It's very incriminating for us!

[rewcox]

I'm sorry for you guys, you're following the precepts of a man.

[hyloglyph]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

Just how in the
What?

Stacy
stacy

Please


You are so so

So

Far out now

That no one can reach you



Can't even start to explain
Just how utterly

Ridiculous

That is


I am truly dumbfounded

[Stacy Oliver]

Can't even start to explain
Just how utterly

Ridiculous

That is


I am truly dumbfounded

Please

D
O

T
R
Y

I
F

Y
O
U

C
A
N

[hyloglyph]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

Just how in the
What?

Stacy
stacy

Please


You are so so

So

Far out now

That no one can reach you



Can't even start to explain
Just how utterly

Ridiculous

That is


I am truly dumbfounded

Aside to the audience:

Take note and beware

The scriptures are to inform our thinking

Read them
With an open mind
and make conclusions based off
Of
What

They

Say



If

You do it the other way around
And let your pre formed conclusions
Inform your views

And then go out searching for supporting scriptures


This is just one sad example of the extremes
That your mind will eventually have to go to
In order to maintain
Your precious worldview

I would know
Like Stacy,
Ive been there

Had to give it up and start over

[Stacy Oliver]

P
L
E
A
S
E

D
O

C
O
R
R
E
C
T

M
Y

A
W
F
U
L

A
N
D

O
B
V
I
O
U
S

E
R
R
O
R
S

[hyloglyph]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

Here is one ^^

So
Awful

And so obvious

That it shouldn't even need correcting

[Stacy Oliver]

Here is one ^^

So
Awful

And so obvious

That it shouldn't even need correcting

It's
Fun
To
Argue
Without
The
Burden
Of
Actually
Making
an
Argument

[oneClimbs]

What comes to mind is:

"Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ." - Moroni 7:19

Combine that with:

“Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church." - Brigham Young

Look back through the scriptures and study how open God's people have been to accepting truth from wherever he chooses to send it. The earth is filled with it. And though there are definitely false prophets, they are usually supported and believed in while true prophets are ridiculed and cast out.

I think we should be very careful. Don't the scriptures show us how often we cast aside truth even if it comes through a flawed messenger. I don't think this is a competition, i.e., Denver vs. Monson, I think on some levels, God is challenging us to see how we judge and how we apply the vast amount of instruction he has provided us with. Can we see past the hype, the opinions of others and judge for ourselves with the Spirit?

The middle ground I have found is to accept truth on it's face as it comes, rather than accepting the messenger. Instead of saying, "this guy is the one I will follow" and picking a team, why not discern every truth as it comes. You can accept a truth from Gandhi or Denver Snuffer just the same, while discarding their teachings that don't do anything for you. The Spirit helps one discern. Here's another one from Brigham:

"It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their Elder Brother, being at their head) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, … to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion (DBY, 248)."

There's some paradigm-shifting stuff. Instead of "following" people, follow truth. It is a good thing to seek truth everywhere, it is a good thing to incline your faith to Church leaders for their support in their weakness to our own benefit. All of these things are here to test and prove us.

Just some things to think about.

[deep water]

rewcox wrote:
Thomas wrote:
You also give a pretty reason right in own post as you equate church membership with salvation,which is a false doctrine.
rewcox wrote:
Sometimes I wonder what scriptures you read. Here is one:
4 Nephi
1 And it came to pass that the thirty and fourth year passed away, and also the thirty and fifth, and behold the disciples of Jesus had formed a church of Christ in all the lands round about. And as many as did come unto them, and did truly repent of their sins, were baptized in the name of Jesus; and they did also receive the Holy Ghost.
4 Nephi 1:1
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/4-ne/1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow, the disciples of Christ formed a church. Hmm, not a community.

We also have the Church of Christ, those who join repent, are baptized.



Deep Water wrote: rewcox you have left out the qualifications for becoming a member of that Church after the time of Christs death. You might do well to read your bible to learn the truth of what you profess. Read about Ananias and Sapphira. Ask your self what was required to join THE CHURCH, that you want to compare with, what we have today. As I said: If you believe in follow the leader and are one link in a long snake like line, ask yourself, is the head of this snake, the eyes and ears, walking in accordance with Gods laws. Are they living a Zion life? Do you even know what Zion consists of? Or is this snake just what a snake is? Slithering around in Babylon? Many times God has warned us to beware of false teachers (prophets) who are wolves in sheep's clothing. They'er speech is pleasant, but they gather fruit of thistles. Fruit that is not, can not, sanctify. If their words and works were true then they would exhibit the true fruits. There would be NO sick among them. Anything less than this is darkness, and you owe it yourself to search the difference.

[hyloglyph]

Here is one ^^

So
Awful

And so obvious

That it shouldn't even need correcting

It's
Fun
To
Argue
Without
The
Burden
Of
Actually
Making
an
Argument

1
I hope not to argue

2
I think you are the only person who cannot understand

So let me be plain

The philosophies of scripture
Mingled
With scripture


Is not on the
Long list
Of things to be avoided


It is a meaningless idea


Im not gonna even get into why or
How
And
I wont say what new degree of senselessness

You have now touched upon



It is just obvious
To everyone
But perhaps you

[rewcox]

@deepwater

You folks go out to Zulu land and try to justify your behaviors.

Christ setup His church with apostles and prophets.

Lehi took his family to the new world, and there were leaders and organization since.

Joseph Smith was instructed to setup the church again. In order for DS to do his thing, he had to put doubt about the church and leaders.

He did this with PTHG, the book that didn't claim it was true.

So you are rolling your own, doing your own thing. That seems to be appealing.

[CAPYBARA]

I realized that I missed answering part of the inquiry from the OP.

Have some folks who have joined actually have an "angel" come down and say he is Christ and that they should leave the LDS Church? (I am not talking about Denver; but the folks who follow him).

Is there a polygamy aspect to the new movement?

This line of questioning is a little difficult for me to answer, because the assumption is that there actually is a movement led by Snuffer. I can totally see why it would be interpreted to be that way, but as one who is part of whatever this is, I don't believe it to be the case.

Some direct examples:
1. In Grand Junction Snuffer suggested that those who have problems paying tithing to the COJCOLDS should pool resources together to take care of the poor among us. YEARS before he made this suggestion I was led to make a similar change in my life by giving directly to the poor. In my mind, God led me to this decision, not Snuffer.

2. As has already been quoted from Denver's talk in Mesa, he suggested meeting together, holding conferences of believers, getting baptized for the remission of sins, etc. Once again, this stuff has been going on for YEARS prior to Denver suggesting we should do that.

So, there may indeed be a "movement" taking place, but I genuinely don't feel it is following Denver. I reject the idea of following any man whether he is Thomas Monson, Denver Snuffer,the Pope, or Barack Obama.

By removing the premise that Snuffer is the leader, I can answer the questions.

I have received no angel claiming to be Christ. I have not been told to leave the church. I know others who have received an audience with the Lord and were not instructed to leave the church. I also know many people who feel inspired to part ways with the church without a visionary experience.

Everyone I have talked to in the "movement" is repulsed by the idea of polygamy.

[deep water]

rewcox; I give it to you. In the face of so much evidence, you remain true to your convection's. A favorite saying of one of my passed friends was "oh how I miss setting on the front row at church, and knowing that I was saved." Peace to you. I will say one thing more. It will be much better for you and for those you are responsible for, to be judged here and now and be cleansed of your sins, than to find yourself in front of the Judgment bar of God in the hereafter.

[Obrien]

You also give a pretty reason right in own post as you equate church membership with salvation,which is a false doctrine.

Sometimes I wonder what scriptures you read. Here is one:
4 Nephi

1 And it came to pass that the thirty and fourth year passed away, and also the thirty and fifth, and behold the disciples of Jesus had formed a church of Christ in all the lands round about. And as many as did come unto them, and did truly repent of their sins, were baptized in the name of Jesus; and they did also receive the Holy Ghost.
4 Nephi 1:1
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/4-ne/1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow, the disciples of Christ formed a church. Hmm, not a community.

We also have the Church of Christ, those who join repent, are baptized.

The Book of Mormon destroys your craft.

I'm catching up on this thread, but had to comment on the obvious. Rewcox, look what happened to that church after 200 years had passed away. Maybe they were called the Church of Jesus Christ of the Meridian Day Saints.

EDIT - I looked it up, and it was actually 200 years after the "coming" of Christ. That word COULD mean 200 years from the sign of His birth OR 200 years from Christ's visitation to the New World. I tend to think it was from the sign of His birth, since that became the day from which the Nephites reckoned their time. That would mean that the church set up after Christ's visit only lasted 164 years. COJCOLDS has been around longer than that - but I think we can all agree the level of our spirituality as a church does not equal that of the ancient Church of Christ recorded in the BOM.

[Obrien]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

It was written by a man dictating the words from a magical parchment in the bottom of a darkened hat. It's either a demonic or celestial. I go with celestial...how about you Stacy?

[Obrien]

Can't even start to explain
Just how utterly

Ridiculous

That is


I am truly dumbfounded

Please

D
O

T
R
Y

I
F

Y
O
U

C
A
N

Pretty clever at least. It's the first thing I can thank you for since you've been on the forum...

[Stacy Oliver]

It is just obvious
To everyone
But perhaps you

You've
said
this
like
three
times
but
have
yet
to
show
how
I
am
wrong.

At this point, I have to assume that you know that you cannot, so you keep falling back on this whole "it's totes obvious!" thing.

So I'll put it differently, the BoM says that it was written by Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, and Moroni. So are did they not write it, or are they not men?

And to get to the broader point of my argument, is the BoM the most correct of any book because the prophets were infallible, or is it because God is at the helm and he will not allow his people to be lead astray in that way?

[Stacy Oliver]

The Bookof Mormon is the basis of my belief.

Since the BoM was written by men, aren't you relying on the arm of the flesh?

It was written by a man dictating the words from a magical parchment in the bottom of a darkened hat. It's either a demonic or celestial. I go with celestial...how about you Stacy?

It was originally written by ancient prophets, who were men. Is it relying on the arm of flesh to rely on the words of dead prophets, or does that reasoning only apply to living ones?