LDS Freedom Forum

Hello LDS Freedom Forum! I've lurked here very infrequently for a few years--and find you all fascinating!!

I just submitted another post...but didn't see it come up on General Discussions. I'm not sure how all of this works...so perhaps I forgot a title...or it takes time to be approved...or something else. Anyway, sorry if this becomes a double posting on the same topic.

I was "born under the covenant", raised in a very active family, have 5 brothers who have all served missions. I married in the temple at 20 instead, to a returned missionary whose father was a former mission president, was currently an Institute teacher and stake president. We have 5 beautiful children. My life has been blessed being a member of the church. However, I have seen the church radically change (from my perspective) over my 45 years. I was raised to seek personal revelation and the Lord. I have watched as the church has become all about obedience. So much so that it feels as if it's following Satan's plan rather than God's. I've always known about Joseph's polygamy. My own heritage is littered with polygamy stories so sorted that it would make your stomach sick. But I've known these stories. I've grown up with them. I've grown up with all the conversations that are now coming out, told in faith. I've known that God could do great things with flawed men and women.

But the recent church's desire to be seen of the world. The recent church's many, many choices and decisions have left me...questioning my faith. Wondering if I was in apostasy, or if it was. I have had a very hard time honestly answering temple questions in a way that would give me a recommend. I have removed my garments. Not because I am not worthy, but because I want to be honest. I do not totally sustain the brethren. Actually, I have a very hard time with much of what was said in GC. I am hurting. I am hurting a lot. But my good, righteous husband is hurting more. I am hurting him. I point out constantly that we aren't talking of Christ in church. We are talking of tithing. We are talking of obedience. Of following the prophet. We aren't talking about following Christ. We aren't talking about, or doing the things we should be. We are building great and spacious buildings. We are seeking the praise of the world. I could go on and on.

Over and over I have been inspired to read Passing the Heavenly Gift, but have fought that inspiration. I was afraid it would move me farther from the church. Finally I heeded the prompting--and I am being filled with faith and a renewed faith in the restoration. This from man who has been excommunicated. This from a man who has "Snufferites" following him and calling him a prophet. I need help. I need support from you good people. I want to do right. I want to find my way back to full faith--to the faith of my childhood. I am hoping to be admitted to the private group for people who have also read this book. I joined this forum for that specifically. But until then, hello. Thank you, my dear new friends.

I wish you luck in your new church.

If you are questioning your faith, question who or what your faith is in. If it is in Christ, it probably isn't shaken. If it is in man or something else, then there may be plenty reason to struggle. James 1:5 comes to mind. In any case, welcome!

Karenmarie wrote: I do not totally sustain the brethren. Actually, I have a very hard time with much of what was said in GC. I am hurting. I am hurting a lot. But my good, righteous husband is hurting more. I am hurting him. I point out constantly that we aren't talking of Christ in church. We are talking of tithing. We are talking of obedience. Of following the prophet. We aren't talking about following Christ. We aren't talking about, or doing the things we should be. We are building great and spacious buildings. We are seeking the praise of the world. I could go on and on.

There will be many who will welcome you to this forum. Your stand for Snuffer will endear you to many. However, I found your intro interesting and especially one part virtually leapt from the pages.

You characterize your husband as a righteous man, whom you are hurting. You mention your temple union and immediately at least a partial cause of your distance and the spinning circles you claim to feel becomes apparent. Your husband, the righteous man, and you made a covenant where he stated that he would follow the guidance of the Lord and where you covenanted to follow him as long as he maintained his efforts to sustain the Lord.

It appears that you openly acknowledge that he is striving to follow the Lord, when he looks to his side, figuratively of course, why is it that you are not there.

Breaking our covenants is one of the first places that starts the spinning questioning dizzying loss of direction. If any direction you choose or any direction that people sustain and congratulate you for your "new independence" leads your further away from your eternal marriage, be wise enough to realize what you are risking - Jesus Christ does not advocate hurting a righteous husband who follows Him.

Thank you, coachmarc. I really like that.

Actually, brlenox, our marriage is stronger than it has ever been. We have an openness that wasn't there before I began to state the concerns of my heart--which is what I believe a helpmeet is to do. As a result, our whole family is closer and more honest. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but so far I have two adult children who didn't rebel as teens and are sealed in the temple. I have two teens who are respectful and loving and also not rebellious. And we have a young child who is the apple of our eyes. Our fruit is good and sweet. There is peace in our home. There is love and understanding an openness. I believe that comes from honestly seeking truth and allowing others to do the same.

Since I began honestly allowing myself to question what felt wrong to my soul--I am a more godly woman. More gentle, more humble and more obedient. I do not have the answers, but I know the Lord does, and I am seeking His will concerning me. You wish to paint my concern about where the church is going as something that is breaking my relationship with my husband. That is not true. We are far from broken. I am a seeker, that is true. I am prone to praying for my own witness of truth. My husband is a blind faith person who has a pure heart. He is happy obeying whether something makes sense to him or not. He doesn't need to pray about it. He just does it. This is honorable to me. He is the truest man I know. So much so that I bow to him and would do anything he commanded of me. But he doesn't command me in my desire to seek and follow the Lord. He wants me to be true, even as he wishes I did not question whether the church's will and the Lord's will were the same. I am very blessed to have him, and I know it. Does it hurt both of us? Yes. Yes, it hurts a lot.

Part of what makes me the woman he loves after 25 years, is that I do want desperately to know for myself. Would I like him to need to know for himself too? Yes, that would be really great. But we approach faith differently. That breaks my heart sometimes. It breaks his heart sometimes. But it is real. We are real. But we as a couple are not "spinning questioning dizzy"--and neither am I as an individual. Does it hurt sometimes? Yes. Sometimes it hurts a lot. But so did childbirth--and that brought us our children. Most things worth having hurt sometimes.

But, just as I covenanted, I am by his side, following him as he follows the Lord. It is a bit offensive for you to state otherwise...but you only get a glimpse from my post, so that is easy to do. I get it. But be careful not to judge, because none of us know each other's hearts--and that is why we are commanded to leave the judging to our Savior. As for gaining new friends here...I hope to do so, but I am not seeking popularity. I don't care who likes me or who doesn't. I'm 45 and a bit beyond that need. I only wish to be on the Lord's side. It is my soul, after all--and my eternal, beloved family.

Welcome KarenMarie!!

Karenmarie, congrats on 25 years of marriage! My wife and I will be married 23 years in a couple weeks. You and I are the same age and have a lot of the same concerns. My heart also breaks. I don't think it's done breaking yet, though. I believe that when it is sufficiently broken, the Lord will finally see fit to personally comfort me. You have a gentleness about you. I see Christ's love in your writing. I think you will find many friends here easily.

Thank you, coachmarc. Congrats to you and your wife too! At 23 years life and love just makes more sense. It starts to become harvest time.

If I have a gentleness--you have a wisdom. Yes, a broken heart is what is required, isn't it? I'm crying, lol! The Lord personally comfort me? What an absolutely beautiful thing to remember.

Well KarenMarie; it sounds like you want a helping hand out of the Church. That is fine and I would say enjoy your journey. If/When you return I am sure there will be many open hands and hearts to help you.

One word of caution before you get too far down the path you are heading; don't do anything permanent...JUST IN CASE you are wrong.

IE don't get any SNUFFER IS MY PROPHET tattoos across your back....just in case.

I was reading Nibely's Book of Mormon class transcripts and he said there were hundreds of offshoots from LDS. But they all revolved around a great leader. Once the leader died or won the Lotto and retired to Sweden; the movement collapsed.

Karenmarie wrote:Thank you, coachmarc. I really like that.

Actually, brlenox, our marriage is stronger than it has ever been. We have an openness that wasn't there before I began to state the concerns of my heart--which is what I believe a helpmeet is to do. As a result, our whole family is closer and more honest. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but so far I have two adult children who didn't rebel as teens and are sealed in the temple. I have two teens who are respectful and loving and also not rebellious. And we have a young child who is the apple of our eyes. Our fruit is good and sweet. There is peace in our home. There is love and understanding an openness. I believe that comes from honestly seeking truth and allowing others to do the same.

Since I began honestly allowing myself to question what felt wrong to my soul--I am a more godly woman. More gentle, more humble and more obedient. I do not have the answers, but I know the Lord does, and I am seeking His will concerning me. You wish to paint my concern about where the church is going as something that is breaking my relationship with my husband. That is not true. We are far from broken. I am a seeker, that is true. I am prone to praying for my own witness of truth. My husband is a blind faith person who has a pure heart. He is happy obeying whether something makes sense to him or not. He doesn't need to pray about it. He just does it. This is honorable to me. He is the truest man I know. So much so that I bow to him and would do anything he commanded of me. But he doesn't command me in my desire to seek and follow the Lord. He wants me to be true, even as he wishes I did not question whether the church's will and the Lord's will were the same. I am very blessed to have him, and I know it. Does it hurt both of us? Yes. Yes, it hurts a lot.

Part of what makes me the woman he loves after 25 years, is that I do want desperately to know for myself. Would I like him to need to know for himself too? Yes, that would be really great. But we approach faith differently. That breaks my heart sometimes. It breaks his heart sometimes. But it is real. We are real. But we as a couple are not "spinning questioning dizzy"--and neither am I as an individual. Does it hurt sometimes? Yes. Sometimes it hurts a lot. But so did childbirth--and that brought us our children. Most things worth having hurt sometimes.

But, just as I covenanted, I am by his side, following him as he follows the Lord. It is a bit offensive for you to state otherwise...but you only get a glimpse from my post, so that is easy to do. I get it. But be careful not to judge, because none of us know each other's hearts--and that is why we are commanded to leave the judging to our Savior. As for gaining new friends here...I hope to do so, but I am not seeking popularity. I don't care who likes me or who doesn't. I'm 45 and a bit beyond that need. I only wish to be on the Lord's side. It is my soul, after all--and my eternal, beloved family.

None of what you describe above are bad things, asking questions and seeking for truth are wondrous. If , as coach marc stated you have mistakenly placed man in your viewfinder and you are now doing a course correct, I'm okay with that. However, If you read between your intro post and this one, you have done what I heard was impossible - they say a leopard cannot change it's spots but indeed you have done just that.

What we had before is the truth I suspect, Of how much help you need and how confused you are but this response is the typical response provided for the TBM audience that dares to question your motives and state of mind. Oops, I'm sorry, the man I'm hurting before is the man that loves our whole life more than ever now...Kind of a disconnect wouldn't you say? One of the key factors of being a Snufferite is the ability to speak out of both sides of your mouth and compartmentalize your behaviors so that you do not even recognize the deception. The fundamental issue at hand is you do not need to question and doubt men that make no claim to perfection as if it is okay for you to chastise me for judging when the rope you hang yourself with is one of judgment of the brethren.

You can make course corrections and still sustain the church it's leadership with no issue. As this is Jesus Christ's organization, inspite of it's imperfections, you do not need to take the tact of Denver Snuffer and come out in opposition to the teat that has nourished you all these years, that even gave you a hope of finding truth. What you have failed to see in the church of speaking of Christ etc is your own blind disenfranchisement. The church is full of Jesus Christ and the power of his atonement to save.

Snuffer has given liscense to the carnel man tendency of a complaining malcontent in your soul. You sound fully transititioned but I hope for your family and husbands sake that you may be content to simply focus on Christ as your lead and work on perfecting yourself instead of leading others to a state of malcontent.

I hope you will continue to seek the Christ. I hope you can do so without having the need to complain about the church and leaders. That's a pastime of some of the HG members. And that just a few will make it.

The journey isn't about who's wrong, but coming to Christ, and gaining his attributes as best we can.

Someone emailed Denver and wondered why they weren't having great spiritual experiences, they had been rebaptized and such. Denver told them to read the scriptures, it took him decades to get where he was.

It will be interesting to see if y'all have that kind of patience.

I suspect that the adversary is leading you carefully along with his flaxen cords. The reason things seem to be going well for you now is because you're not having to fight the adversary as much now. It's a lot of work to remain active in the Church. I know that, but I also know the rewards are great. Have you stopped praying? Have you stopped reading your scriptures daily? Have you quit going to the temple as often? Here's an experiment for you: Read from the Book of Mormon daily at least 15 minutes. Pray with your husband at least twice a day. Go to the temple at least twice a month. Pray with all your might to regain your testimony. Try that for two months and see if it makes a difference. Reread the Conference talks and see if you can find Christ there. See if you can find Christ in the temple. See if you can find Christ in the scriptures. Right now you are very much leaning away from the Church. You might think you are happier now, but at some point you will either embrace the Church of Jesus Christ and know He is still at the head of it, or you will leave it behind. It will cause great pain to your family. You need to decide what you want and focus on the eternities. It's a very solemn decision you have before you. Please try to regain your testimony because it's the most precious thing you have.

I shouldn't put words in Karens mouth but it doesn't sound to me that she has lost her testimony She says that she has renewed faith including renewed faith in the restoration of the gospel. It is interesting how often we read what we expect to see rather than what is actually written

boo wrote:I shouldn't put words in Karens mouth but it doesn't sound to me that she has lost her testimony She says that she has renewed faith including renewed faith in the restoration of the gospel. It is interesting how often we read what we expect to see rather than what is actually written

BOO POO. I think perhaps you are simply responding in the compartmentalized fashion typical for those who are disaffected. There are paradoxes that should not be overlooked. They are the very evidence of the condition that is destroying some individuals. One cannot claim I have a testimony of Joseph Smith but believe Thomas S. Monson is not the prophet of the Lord, the very conundrum , speaks to opposing truths, thus one is a lie.

Within the LDS theological structure, one cannot say that I know Jesus Christ and then ignore a multitude of very exacting scriptural statements made by the Savior that speak to those he will call to lead his church as his mouthpieces and yet the mantra here is they are misguided. These are canceling doctrines. Belief in one, undermines the affirmative statements by negating the foundational line upon line precepts that define truth. These become the half truths and lies that enable one to ignore the cognative dissonance of spiritual deceptions.

Thus her posts and most of the snufferim …or was it snuffer sniffers you preferred, escapes me now… anyway most of their defenses are filled with paradoxical evaluations that in their very presence speak to deception and compartmentalization of that deception.

I would hold off on labels. Don't label yourself a Snufferite. Labeling with the title of men adds confusion.
Snuffer matters no more than the brethren. He's a man with a message.

If the message brings you closer to Christ, heed it.
If Snuffer distract you from Christ, reject him.

If General Conference brings you to Christ follow it.
If General Conference feels luke-warm in your mouth, spit it out.

See the pattern.

God will have diverse ways to gather his children as a hen gathers her chicks. Follow Him and soon you'll be within the warmth of His wings.

The brethren will fade, as will Snuffer. There is one Light, that never burns out. One Voice that always beckons us home.

Follow that light, and until it grows brighter than noon day.

Good luck.

Thank you, boo. We do pretty much judge people from our filters, don't we?

Gratefully I know my relationship with my husband and that I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Whewww... Isn't it great that my marriage (or testimony) isn't dependent upon the opinion of those who don't know us? I can ask for help because both my husband and I are hurting--AND have a very healthy marriage and happy family. Both are true. And the truth of unconditional love is that it isn't always a cushy pillow.

rewcox and kathlyn (cute name), thank you for your advice. I pray several times a day, read the scriptures daily, attend church each week, fast... I am not breaking any commandments that I know of, except that I do not fully sustain the brethren in all they do. I do not currently attend the temple because, although I hold a recommend, I do not know where I stand with the church. I attended last when my daughter took her endowments out and also her sealing. I didn't feel right being there. It is important to me that when I attend the temple again, I do so with the right heart. My bishop knows exactly where I am at and has told me he admires my integrity.

I am not distant from the Lord. In fact, I feel closer to Divinity than ever. I know that is hard to understand, because I was taught that if I questioned the brethren I was on the way to apostasy and would lose the Holy Ghost. This hasn't been the case for me. (You think I'm in apostasy, I know.) At first I tried to not see things, but my heart felt something wasn't right. When this would happen, I would study harder, do more, try to be more righteous. It had to be me, I was sure. I was in leadership. My husband was in leadership. We were "that" family. I didn't talk about what I was feeling. I felt like a fraud and a fake. Our marriage struggled, even as we taught Celestial Marriage, lol. The more I sought confirmation that all was well with the church, the more unease would come. I began to feel I was fallen--and then a miracle happened too spiritual to share. I knew the Lord knew and loved me personally, and that He was pleased with my desire to follow Him. That miracle, and ones that followed, gave me some peace. If He didn't see me as fallen, but worthy of His presence in my life--well then, I had to see myself as unfallen too.

I don't remember the day told my husband. But I do remember the pain that followed. I remember him no longer trusting me. I remember feeling judged and that he didn't really love me. But in the years that followed we have come to know each other very well. We know each other's hearts. We trust each other's hearts. While he believes the church to be 100% good (the essays haven't helped him--he knows people have been exed for saying what the church is now admitting), he also 100% trusts the spiritual insight I have in other parts of our lives. He knows my faults, but he also knows I am good. He has witnessed the guidance I have had, and the fruition of that guidance time and again. It's confusing to him, but he KNOWS I have the Holy Ghost.

As for Denver Snuffer, I have just begun his book. I'm on page 133. I do not call him prophet or prophetic--but his book, so far, is a history book--and as I read it (all footnoted) I feel the Spirit witness truth. I feel peace. I feel a renewed faith in the restoration and in Joseph Smith. I'm not tempted to join Denver's church (yet, ;)), but I do feel closer to the restored church. To the church of my childhood--to the stories my grandparents told me. To the beliefs I was taught as a child. A courageous truth. A proclaiming truth. Not blind obedience, but obtaining a personal witness. You are right, Kathyn, it is a very solemn decision. A solemn one indeed.

jockeybox...I totally agree with you! And you're so right, I shouldn't have given myself that label. I called myself a Snufferite a bit tongue and cheek. I've read Denver hates the term. I also know that he isn't looking to lead a church. I just find myself a reluctant fan--who thought he was a nitwit (being honest here) and found, instead, a testifying of the Spirit. I'm surprised. I haven't finished the book--and am somewhat expecting to step on a landmine that blows everything. But so far, I am grateful. Beyond words.

My favorite part of your reply: "There is one Light, that never burns out. One Voice that always beckons us home. Follow that light, and until it grows brighter than noon day."

Thank you. That is the best advice anyone could give. <3

Welcome Karen. As you have seen, there are many here ready to call you to repentance, and question your personal devotion, even in the midst of you saying that your faith has increased in the restoration. But based on yours posts, looks like you'll do just fine here.

Stick to the spirit. It seems to be serving you well.

This thread gives me the warm fuzzies ((((:

....except for.....that...... slash-bringing hasher hanging out by ajax...
er....
the....
the... sash-wringing... the trash-singing... mash-flinging... the flash-springing... wringing... the-the crash dinging...
uhhhhh......

Welcome Karenmarie,

There are plenty of "ites" in the world to follow... I think what your really looking for is what we all want to be apart of...

And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:62)

Before we can ever go to this place we must first "become that place" individually. I think you already know this... we just need to be reminded again and again. My advice is to stay true to where you are with your family and the Church... only good will come of it if you keep sacred the importance of "becoming" in character and attribute as Christ and the Father are. god/God bless you in that journey.

brlenox wrote:

boo wrote:I shouldn't put words in Karens mouth but it doesn't sound to me that she has lost her testimony She says that she has renewed faith including renewed faith in the restoration of the gospel. It is interesting how often we read what we expect to see rather than what is actually written

BOO POO. I think perhaps you are simply responding in the compartmentalized fashion typical for those who are disaffected. There are paradoxes that should not be overlooked. They are the very evidence of the condition that is destroying some individuals. One cannot claim I have a testimony of Joseph Smith but believe Thomas S. Monson is not the prophet of the Lord, the very conundrum , speaks to opposing truths, thus one is a lie.

Within the LDS theological structure, one cannot say that I know Jesus Christ and then ignore a multitude of very exacting scriptural statements made by the Savior that speak to those he will call to lead his church as his mouthpieces and yet the mantra here is they are misguided. These are canceling doctrines. Belief in one, undermines the affirmative statements by negating the foundational line upon line precepts that define truth. These become the half truths and lies that enable one to ignore the cognative dissonance of spiritual deceptions.

Thus her posts and most of the snufferim …or was it snuffer sniffers you preferred, escapes me now… anyway most of their defenses are filled with paradoxical evaluations that in their very presence speak to deception and compartmentalization of that deception.

As I said earlier i think the most appropriate name is Christian . Anyone who has read D Snuffer will know the last thing he wants is followers because those who follow men end up in hell D&C 76:100. With respect to the rest of your response suffice to say I completely disagree.

I'm not sure that PTHG is history, more of a hypothesis. Lawyers do this type of thing.

Denver said this on his blog:

The book assumes it is competing with another tradition taught to us by the church, and only suggests there may be another way to view events. It does not claim to be right. That is left to the reader to decide. In many specific topics the material reaches a "tie" and leaves it to the reader to choose the result.

It is not until Chapter 15 that I move from recounting what scripture and church leaders wrote or said to assume the proposed new view is true. That chapter opens with this explanation: "For purposes of this chapter, I am going to assume the church never obtained the fullness offered by the Lord in Nauvoo." Then I give all the reasons why I would choose to believe, and remain faithful to the church. That is the point at which my voice emerges into the narrative. It comes to quiet alarm, reassure belief and to muster support for the church.

Also, when suggesting church leaders haven't seen Christ, he did not mention this about Heber J. Grant:

Heber J. Grant wrote this:

So I went to the president’s office, and there sat brother Teasdale, and all of the ten Apostles, and the Presidency of the Church, and also Seymour B. Young and the members of the seven presidents of Seventies. And the revelation was read calling brother Teasdale and myself to the apostleship, and brother Seymour B. Young to be one of the seven presidents of Seventies. Brother Teasdale was blessed by

President John Taylor, and George Q. Cannon blessed me …

I was a very unhappy man from October to February. For the next four months whenever I would bear my testimony of the divinity of the Savior, there seemed to be a voice that would say: “You lie, because you have never seen him.” One of the brethren had made the remark that unless a man had seen the Lamb of God — that was his expression — “he was not fit to be an Apostle. This feeling that I have mentioned would follow me. I would wake up in the night with the impression: “You do not know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, because you have never seen him,” and the same feeling would come to me when I would preach and bear testimony. It worried me from October to the following February.

I was in Arizona, traveling with Brigham Young, Jr., and a number of other brethren, visiting the Navajo Indians and the Moki Indians.… I had this feeling that I ought not to testify any more about the Savior and that really, I was not fit to be an Apostle. It seemed overwhelming to me that I should be one. There was a spirit that said: “If you have not seen the Savior, why don’t you resign your position?”

As I rode along alone, I seemed to see a Council in Heaven. The Savior was there; the Prophet Joseph was there; my father and others that I knew were there. In this Council it seemed that they decided that a mistake had been made in not filling the vacancies in the quorum of the Twelve, and conference had adjourned. The chances were the brethren would wait another six months, and the way to remedy the situation was to send a revelation naming the men who should fill the vacancies. In this council the Prophet said, “I want to be represented by one of my own on that council.”

I had always understood and known that my mother was sealed to the Prophet, and that Brigham Young had told my father that he would not marry my mother to him for eternity, because he had instructions from the Prophet that if anything happened to him before he was married to Rachel Ivins she must be sealed to him for eternity, that she belonged to him.

That is the reason that father spoke up in this council to which I have referred, and said: “Why not choose the boy who bears my name who belongs to you, to be one of the Apostles?” That is the inspiration that was given to me.

I can truthfully say that from February, 1883, until today I have never had any of that trouble, and I can bear testimony that I know that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world, and that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of the living God.

kathyn wrote:I suspect that the adversary is leading you carefully along with his flaxen cords. The reason things seem to be going well for you now is because you're not having to fight the adversary as much now. It's a lot of work to remain active in the Church. I know that, but I also know the rewards are great. Have you stopped praying? Have you stopped reading your scriptures daily? Have you quit going to the temple as often? Here's an experiment for you: Read from the Book of Mormon daily at least 15 minutes. Pray with your husband at least twice a day. Go to the temple at least twice a month. Pray with all your might to regain your testimony. Try that for two months and see if it makes a difference. Reread the Conference talks and see if you can find Christ there. See if you can find Christ in the temple. See if you can find Christ in the scriptures. Right now you are very much leaning away from the Church. You might think you are happier now, but at some point you will either embrace the Church of Jesus Christ and know He is still at the head of it, or you will leave it behind. It will cause great pain to your family. You need to decide what you want and focus on the eternities. It's a very solemn decision you have before you. Please try to regain your testimony because it's the most precious thing you have.

I agree with Kathyn, and if reading and praying temple attending leads you back to the Church, go there. If it leads you elsewhere then you should go there as well. Let the Spirit dictate.

rewcox wrote: Also, when suggesting church leaders haven't seen Christ,

Rew, I don't think he makes this argument at all. Rather he puts forth evidence that the spiritual and attendant manifestations were de-emphasized over time.

ajax wrote:

rewcox wrote: Also, when suggesting church leaders haven't seen Christ,

Rew, I don't think he makes this argument at all. Rather he puts forth evidence that the spiritual and attendant manifestations were de-emphasized over time.

FROM THE DESK OF DE'VEY SOUFFLE

"In the twentieth century, charismatic apostleship changed in several ways. First, the 'charge' at ordination no longer obligated apostles to seek visions. Second, the Presidency and apostles began down-playing the importance of these experiences. Third, apostles began speaking of a non-visionary 'special witness of Christ' by the Holy Ghost in terms which allowed listeners to conclude that the apostles referred to an actual appearance of deity. Fourth, apostles were reluctant to discuss their visionary experiences publicly. Fifth, evidence indicates that a decreasing number of apostles experienced visions before or after ordination.

"The change in the apostolic 'charge' apparently began with the appointment of Reed Smoot as an apostle in 1900. General church authorities had long regarded him as 'reliable in business, but [he] has little or no faith.' President Lorenzo Snow blessed him to receive 'the light of the Holy Ghost' so that he could bear testimony of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. That was an extraordinary departure from the apostolic charge as given since 1835.

"...Twentieth-century apostles began applying this 'as if' approach to their spoken testimonies. Usually this involved wording their 'special witness' of Christ in a way that encouraged listeners to assume the leader has had a more dramatic encounter with the divine than actually claimed."