Steadying the Ark
- Cowboy
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Steadying the Ark
As I have argued before, I think that the main point behind many of the posts could be summed up in Steadying the Ark.
We pay Tithing to the Lord.....wait a minute, we pay Tithing to the Church....AND we don't like what they do with it!
When did we all decide that the Lord needs to be accountable to us? I'll tell you when, it's when some of you decided the Lord and the Church are two separate entities..... They aren't!
( Not to even mention that the true principle behind Tithing is that you will be blessed by paying your Tithing and it doesn't matter what the Lord does with that money because it will be replaced many times over.)
The matter at hand is interchangeable.... Tithing, The Gay issue, The feminism issue, The Snuffy issue, The Mall issue, the give everyone a home issue, the " why can't I be the Bishop " issue and the dreaded Tasters Table @ Relief Society issue among others.
Again, the point of my Stay in the Boat post,( which kinda got hijacked into " after the Lord threw me out of the Boat, I changed the story to say he called me out to leave the boat "...) but the point was to say, quit trying to tell the Leaders, the Lord has anointed to lead, what to do and faithfully play the part given you. Then you will have more added upon until you are indeed happy.
We pay Tithing to the Lord.....wait a minute, we pay Tithing to the Church....AND we don't like what they do with it!
When did we all decide that the Lord needs to be accountable to us? I'll tell you when, it's when some of you decided the Lord and the Church are two separate entities..... They aren't!
( Not to even mention that the true principle behind Tithing is that you will be blessed by paying your Tithing and it doesn't matter what the Lord does with that money because it will be replaced many times over.)
The matter at hand is interchangeable.... Tithing, The Gay issue, The feminism issue, The Snuffy issue, The Mall issue, the give everyone a home issue, the " why can't I be the Bishop " issue and the dreaded Tasters Table @ Relief Society issue among others.
Again, the point of my Stay in the Boat post,( which kinda got hijacked into " after the Lord threw me out of the Boat, I changed the story to say he called me out to leave the boat "...) but the point was to say, quit trying to tell the Leaders, the Lord has anointed to lead, what to do and faithfully play the part given you. Then you will have more added upon until you are indeed happy.
- gruden2.0
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Steadying the Ark
It's called the Law of Consent. The Lord, in His wisdom, has given members a certain amount of say in what is done in the church. From Joseph's day important decisions were put before the church body for approval. Joseph was once even denied an increase in monetary support because members voted against it. These kinds of things have been forgotten.
However, I think there's a misconception on what it means to steady the Ark. That is an attempt by an individual to intercede to right/change what they view as wrong in place of God, just as an Israelite lifted his hand to steady a wobbly ark as it was being moved. In the case of certain individuals such as myself, I make no attempt to change anything, because I realized that The Brethren aren't interested in putting matters before a church vote, and they could care less what I think, so I simply withdraw. It is my privilege to do so. No righting of any ark being attempted on my part.
For example: Church leaders decide to use investment interest on tithing proceeds to build an expensive mall. I decide to use the money I donated as tithing for other purposes that benefit the poor directly. That isn't righting any 'ark', I freely acknowledge there is nothing I can say or do to change what those men do in the COB. I can, however, exercise my agency and refuse to participate.
If the 'Ark' falls, it falls. If God rights it, it gets righted. I will watch and see what He decides to do.
However, I think there's a misconception on what it means to steady the Ark. That is an attempt by an individual to intercede to right/change what they view as wrong in place of God, just as an Israelite lifted his hand to steady a wobbly ark as it was being moved. In the case of certain individuals such as myself, I make no attempt to change anything, because I realized that The Brethren aren't interested in putting matters before a church vote, and they could care less what I think, so I simply withdraw. It is my privilege to do so. No righting of any ark being attempted on my part.
For example: Church leaders decide to use investment interest on tithing proceeds to build an expensive mall. I decide to use the money I donated as tithing for other purposes that benefit the poor directly. That isn't righting any 'ark', I freely acknowledge there is nothing I can say or do to change what those men do in the COB. I can, however, exercise my agency and refuse to participate.
If the 'Ark' falls, it falls. If God rights it, it gets righted. I will watch and see what He decides to do.
- SmallFarm
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Re: Steadying the Ark
I agree that we shouldn't steady the Ark. I can't say that the church and the lord are the same thing. The church is the lady in white who births the man child. ;)
- clarkkent14
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Re: Steadying the Ark
You believe the church(tm) is The Lord, and I do not. Therefore you believe the church(tm), and its leaders can do no wrong. I disagree. That's a catholic doctrine. I believe what the scriptures say about us, you believe what the leaders of the church(tm) say about us. So we differ on many things.
- kathyn
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Here we go again...no one has said that the Brethren can do no wrong. We know they are human and fallible, but they are the best of the best and the Lord has called them. It is their stewardship. If they ever do anything that the Lord doesn't approve of, He can take care of it. It's not necessary for us to call them out. And it is ark steadying. Some think the Church has gone astray and that they need to point out what is wrong. And they do it by backbiting the Brethren. That's cowardly.
- clarkkent14
- LBFOJ
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Re: Steadying the Ark
In the OP the church(tm) and the Lord are considered the same thing. The Lord can do no wrong therefore equating them naturally means the church(tm) can do no wrong.kathyn wrote:Here we go again...no one has said that the Brethren can do no wrong. We know they are human and fallible, but they are the best of the best and the Lord has called them. It is their stewardship. If they ever do anything that the Lord doesn't approve of, He can take care of it. It's not necessary for us to call them out. And it is ark steadying. Some think the Church has gone astray and that they need to point out what is wrong. And they do it by backbiting the Brethren. That's cowardly.
- Desert Roses
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Many years ago, I learned some important ideas in Alcoholics Anonymous that I have very successfully applied to my relationship with "the church".
1. It's God's meeting (God's Church) and it's not up to me to decide how it ought to be run. I'll be much happier and serene when I let God run the show.
2. The program (commandments and leadership) are only suggestions, but so is the suggestion to pull the ripcord when you jump out of the plane. Your survival spiritually speaking, and to my mind in the coming days, physically speaking, very well may depend on it.
Those two ideas have kept me "in line" with the brethren and the leadership of the church for over 20 years now. They are pretty simple, but never overlook an idea because it is simple. I have been watching the posts here, and no one else seems to have heard the clarion call of warning from this General Conference. It sounded pretty much to me that it's getting close to the time Isaiah saw when only the righteous who do not "stone the prophets" would be safe from the destructions about to hit. Me, I'm staying in the boat. You can question the captain and the crew and decide you're safer someplace else, but I'm pretty clear that the message for me over the last several months, particularly after reading many of the posts here raising questions is in the Good Ship Zion. Hang on...the waters are going to get pretty rough.
1. It's God's meeting (God's Church) and it's not up to me to decide how it ought to be run. I'll be much happier and serene when I let God run the show.
2. The program (commandments and leadership) are only suggestions, but so is the suggestion to pull the ripcord when you jump out of the plane. Your survival spiritually speaking, and to my mind in the coming days, physically speaking, very well may depend on it.
Those two ideas have kept me "in line" with the brethren and the leadership of the church for over 20 years now. They are pretty simple, but never overlook an idea because it is simple. I have been watching the posts here, and no one else seems to have heard the clarion call of warning from this General Conference. It sounded pretty much to me that it's getting close to the time Isaiah saw when only the righteous who do not "stone the prophets" would be safe from the destructions about to hit. Me, I'm staying in the boat. You can question the captain and the crew and decide you're safer someplace else, but I'm pretty clear that the message for me over the last several months, particularly after reading many of the posts here raising questions is in the Good Ship Zion. Hang on...the waters are going to get pretty rough.
- kathyn
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Re: Steadying the Ark
DesertRoses, I heard the Conference messages loud and clear. I felt a solemnity that I have never felt before. There was not much that wasn't said in a very serious manner and I do believe we are rapidly approaching the time when we will have to declare our allegiance to the Savior and His church or we will have lost our way and we will then be tossed to and fro as the foretold calamities hit, in earnest. Rough seas is right!
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Re: Steadying the Ark
All I can say to this post is understand you not the words of the Prophet Joel to the Saints awakening to sound the alarm that the old men and administers of the law of God might awaken to the perversion of equity?
That the vineyard has become corrupt every whit and eaten up of all things common among you?
That the seed is rotten?
That even the bark has been stripped off the branches of the trees?
The fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly.
And the "law" to his church was that of the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church of the faithful Saints that first and foremost before even one brick is laid or property purchased for buildings of worship the poor and needy Saints among you were to be given covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into their hands for the support of their families, an inheritance in the land of promise. Be equal first, then do your temple work period.
These commandments which he has given us through Joseph Smith from Jesus Christ himself of God have been outright rejected by the old men and administers of the law of God.
One can totally see and understand why the Lord speaks to sound the alarm and weep and howl and blow the trumpet in Zion that the old men and administers of the law of God just might awaken and ask:
Hath this been in our day?
Yes, yes it has. ♡
Awaken and bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and goodness of all things common among you as in the days of Peter and his fellow apostles and then the Nephites and Lamanites who lasted until the 201st year had passed away before they fell away from being equal in their temporal things.
Please help them Lord, to awaken and weep and howl until someone wakes up.
Please. ♡
That the vineyard has become corrupt every whit and eaten up of all things common among you?
That the seed is rotten?
That even the bark has been stripped off the branches of the trees?
The fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly.
And the "law" to his church was that of the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church of the faithful Saints that first and foremost before even one brick is laid or property purchased for buildings of worship the poor and needy Saints among you were to be given covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into their hands for the support of their families, an inheritance in the land of promise. Be equal first, then do your temple work period.
These commandments which he has given us through Joseph Smith from Jesus Christ himself of God have been outright rejected by the old men and administers of the law of God.
One can totally see and understand why the Lord speaks to sound the alarm and weep and howl and blow the trumpet in Zion that the old men and administers of the law of God just might awaken and ask:
Hath this been in our day?
Yes, yes it has. ♡
Awaken and bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and goodness of all things common among you as in the days of Peter and his fellow apostles and then the Nephites and Lamanites who lasted until the 201st year had passed away before they fell away from being equal in their temporal things.
Please help them Lord, to awaken and weep and howl until someone wakes up.
Please. ♡
- Epistemology
- captain of 100
- Posts: 701
Re: Steadying the Ark
Ya I don't look at The Lord and the church as the same thing.clarkkent14 wrote:In the OP the church(tm) and the Lord are considered the same thing. The Lord can do no wrong therefore equating them naturally means the church(tm) can do no wrong.kathyn wrote:Here we go again...no one has said that the Brethren can do no wrong. We know they are human and fallible, but they are the best of the best and the Lord has called them. It is their stewardship. If they ever do anything that the Lord doesn't approve of, He can take care of it. It's not necessary for us to call them out. And it is ark steadying. Some think the Church has gone astray and that they need to point out what is wrong. And they do it by backbiting the Brethren. That's cowardly.
The Lord is like the owner of a team, the prophets are the coaches and it is our job to play or position the best we can and although some may disagree with the coaches our team benefits the best when the players don't call out the coaches all the time and let the owner handle the coaches. The Lord doesn't need us to point out to Him any problems the coaches have. He wants us to play our part the best we can and be the best team players so that we can truly be one team one heart and one mind.
Sorry to those that hate sports analogies...
Sorry to Obrien for the 3 dots...
And again it seems...
Last edited by Epistemology on October 9th, 2014, 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Shake yourselves and awaken. Please.
No one who belongs to the church of the living God is exempt from this law:
In your temporal things you shall be equal and this not grudgingly period.
You are to give covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church of the faithful Saints before even one brick is laid or property purchased for buildings of worship.
Wake up from this nightmare about to happen.
Please. ♡
No one who belongs to the church of the living God is exempt from this law:
In your temporal things you shall be equal and this not grudgingly period.
You are to give covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church of the faithful Saints before even one brick is laid or property purchased for buildings of worship.
Wake up from this nightmare about to happen.
Please. ♡
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: Steadying the Ark
That's a false binary choice.clarkkent14 wrote:You believe the church(tm) is The Lord, and I do not. Therefore you believe the church(tm), and its leaders can do no wrong.
The scriptures were written by leaders of the Church. If you give them authority you are giving man authority.I disagree. That's a catholic doctrine. I believe what the scriptures say about us, you believe what the leaders of the church(tm) say about us. So we differ on many things.
- Epistemology
- captain of 100
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Not trying to be difficult here but CK is right, it's not really a false dichotomy it's more of an identity statement. If The Lord is perfect and the church is The Lord then the church is perfect.Seek the Truth wrote:That's a false binary choice.clarkkent14 wrote:You believe the church(tm) is The Lord, and I do not. Therefore you believe the church(tm), and its leaders can do no wrong.
The scriptures were written by leaders of the Church. If you give them authority you are giving man authority.I disagree. That's a catholic doctrine. I believe what the scriptures say about us, you believe what the leaders of the church(tm) say about us. So we differ on many things.
Now is the church = to the gospel cuz that changes things in the argument going forward
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Rreally ? I have been wrong I guess. I thought they were written by God who only used those he spoke directly to to take down his words. Certainly they were NOT written by leaders of the church. It was the leaders of the church that were trying to kill Lehi and succeeded in killing the Savior. Funny how easy it is to rewrite history. Are you related to George Orwell ?Seek the Truth wrote:That's a false binary choice.clarkkent14 wrote:You believe the church(tm) is The Lord, and I do not. Therefore you believe the church(tm), and its leaders can do no wrong.
The scriptures were written by leaders of the Church. If you give them authority you are giving man authority.I disagree. That's a catholic doctrine. I believe what the scriptures say about us, you believe what the leaders of the church(tm) say about us. So we differ on many things.
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Excluding the D&C only a small portion of the scriptures are the actual words of God, including the BOM. The rest are the words of men.
The Prophets are the leaders of the Church, and Apostles. Many try to stone them still today, digitally. I think the rewriting of history or coming from the other direction.
The Prophets are the leaders of the Church, and Apostles. Many try to stone them still today, digitally. I think the rewriting of history or coming from the other direction.
Last edited by Seek the Truth on October 9th, 2014, 7:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- rewcox
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Gosh Boo, what's going on? You have an small fuse recently.boo wrote:Rreally ? I have been wrong I guess. I thought they were written by God who only used those he spoke directly to to take down his words. Certainly they were NOT written by leaders of the church. It was the leaders of the church that were trying to kill Lehi and succeeded in killing the Savior. Funny how easy it is to rewrite history. Are you related to George Orwell ?Seek the Truth wrote:That's a false binary choice.clarkkent14 wrote:You believe the church(tm) is The Lord, and I do not. Therefore you believe the church(tm), and its leaders can do no wrong.
The scriptures were written by leaders of the Church. If you give them authority you are giving man authority.I disagree. That's a catholic doctrine. I believe what the scriptures say about us, you believe what the leaders of the church(tm) say about us. So we differ on many things.
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: Steadying the Ark
We're dealing with a false binary. Some people are saying man cannot be infallible, therefore Thomas Monson or whoever is a fallible man and cannot be followed.Epistemology wrote: Not trying to be difficult here but CK is right, it's not really a false dichotomy it's more of an identity statement. If The Lord is perfect and the church is The Lord then the church is perfect.
Now is the church = to the gospel cuz that changes things in the argument going forward
The problem with this false binary is it is applied selectively. Every author of the Bible was as fallible man as Monson is, and they treat those words as scriptures. It's cognitive dissonance. If Monson can be discounted due to fallibility so can any author of the Bible.
The Church being true is something Jesus proclaimed himself, I have nothing to do with it. But the issue of the fallibility of Prophets is a false binary being applied selectively.
- SmallFarm
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Re: Steadying the Ark
I think the misunderstanding is do in part to semantics. I don't think anyone is saying that Monson can be discounted because he's fallible, but that we shouldn't blindly follow him (or any fallible man) without the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost.
- TZONE
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Steadying the Ark
Steadying hte ark means someone is trying to fix the church (ordain the women movement)....
No one here wants to fix the church that I am aware of. They are perfectly happy letting it take its course.
No one here wants to fix the church that I am aware of. They are perfectly happy letting it take its course.
- Epistemology
- captain of 100
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Re: Steadying the Ark
im not sure if we are talking about the same thing here. all I was trying to say is that the statement that the Lord IS the church is an identity statement in logic. that means if the Lord is perfect and the church IS the Lord than the church is perfect.Seek the Truth wrote:We're dealing with a false binary. Some people are saying man cannot be infallible, therefore Thomas Monson or whoever is a fallible man and cannot be followed.Epistemology wrote: Not trying to be difficult here but CK is right, it's not really a false dichotomy it's more of an identity statement. If The Lord is perfect and the church is The Lord then the church is perfect.
Now is the church = to the gospel cuz that changes things in the argument going forward
The problem with this false binary is it is applied selectively. Every author of the Bible was as fallible man as Monson is, and they treat those words as scriptures. It's cognitive dissonance. If Monson can be discounted due to fallibility so can any author of the Bible.
The Church being true is something Jesus proclaimed himself, I have nothing to do with it. But the issue of the fallibility of Prophets is a false binary being applied selectively.
thats all im saying. this is logically true whether anyone wants to agree or not.
as far as the implications being made overall on the matter at hand I agree with your assessment of what others are implying
edit** being logically correct does not mean that it is true as far as being factual. one may counter the logical truth by saying that the Lord is NOT the church.
Last edited by Epistemology on October 9th, 2014, 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Obrien
- Up, up and away.
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Re: Steadying the Ark
and the opposite is also the case. we as members should not be penalized by church leaders for having different interpretations of what "doctrine" is. all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole, right? however, if you don't pay your tithing you're marginalized. if you like an iced coffee or a cold beer, you're marginalized. if you say "l hope..." in testimony meeting rather than "l know...", you're marginalized. if you don't home teach, you're marginalized. let people live and let live.SmallFarm wrote:I think the misunderstanding is do in part to semantics. I don't think anyone is saying that Monson can be discounted because he's fallible, but that we shouldn't blindly follow him (or any fallible man) without the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost.
as a humorous aside, I use Swype for entering most of my posts. when I tried to write "hometeaching" above, Swype's best guess at the letter combination was "Gomorrah". sometimes Swype is funny.
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Re: Steadying the Ark
I do.SmallFarm wrote:I think the misunderstanding is do in part to semantics. I don't think anyone is saying that Monson can be discounted because he's fallible,
(all men are fallible) I've offered this clarification more times than I can count and it hasn't swayed anyone.but that we shouldn't blindly follow him (or any fallible man) without the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost.
- Obrien
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Re: Steadying the Ark
no reason to apologize for sports analogies OR ellipses. the only time they got to me was... when... wompus...( may he rest in peace)... used... them... ... ... excessively... .Epistemology wrote: ...
...
Ya I don't look at The Lord and the church as the same thing.
The Lord is like the owner of a team, the prophets are the coaches and it is our job to play or position the best we can and although some may disagree with the coaches our team benefits the best when the players don't call out the coaches all the time and let the owner handle the coaches. The Lord doesn't need us to point out to Him any problems the coaches have. He wants us to play our part the best we can and be the best team players so that we can truly be one team one heart and one mind.
Sorry to those that hate sports analogies...
Sorry to Obrien for the 3 dots...
And again it seems...
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3511
Re: Steadying the Ark
Excommunication is a revealed truth.Obrien wrote:and the opposite is also the case. we as members should not be penalized by church leaders for having different interpretations of what "doctrine" is. all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole, right? however, if you don't pay your tithing you're marginalized. if you like an iced coffee or a cold beer, you're marginalized. if you say "l hope..." in testimony meeting rather than "l know...", you're marginalized. if you don't home teach, you're marginalized. let people live and let live.SmallFarm wrote:I think the misunderstanding is do in part to semantics. I don't think anyone is saying that Monson can be discounted because he's fallible, but that we shouldn't blindly follow him (or any fallible man) without the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost.
as a humorous aside, I use Swype for entering most of my posts. when I tried to write "hometeaching" above, Swype's best guess at the letter combination was "Gomorrah". sometimes Swype is funny.