What best describes you or how you approach your faith?
1.) I believe I am a Fundamentalist, or in Fundamentalism.
2.) I believe I am Orthodox, or in Orthodoxy.
3.) I believe I am a Modernist, or in Modernism.
4.) I believe I am a Literalist, or in Literalism.
5.) I believe I am a Sectarian, or in Sectarianism.
Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
Fundamentalism is the demand for a strict adherence to theological doctrines, usually understood as a reaction to Modernist theology. The term was originally coined by its supporters to describe five specific classic theological beliefs of Christianity, and that developed into a Christian fundamentalist movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century.
The term usually has a religious connotation indicating unwavering attachment to a set of beliefs, but fundamentalism has come to be applied to a broad tendency among certain groups, mainly, although not exclusively, in religion. This tendency is most often characterized by a markedly strict application to certain specific scriptures, dogmas, or ideologies, and a strong sense of the importance of maintaining ingroup and outgroup distinctions, which can lead to an emphasis on purity and the desire to return to a previous ideal from which it is believed that members have begun to stray. Rejection of diversity of opinion as applied to these established "fundamentals" and their accepted interpretation within the group is often the result of this tendency.
Pope [Francis] Condemns Religious Fundamentalism (First Publish: 6/13/2014, 3:52 PM) "A fundamentalist group, even if it kills no one, even it strikes no one, is violent. The mental structure of fundamentalism is violence in the name of God." In Mormonism, it is the grouping of separatist or groups who adhere to original doctrines.
Orthodoxy (from Greek orthos ("right", "true", "straight") + doxa ("opinion" or "belief", related to dokein, "to think"), is adherence to accepted norms, more specifically to creeds, especially in religion. In the Christian sense the term means "conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early Church".
The concept of orthodoxy is prevalent in many forms of organized monotheism, but orthodox belief is not usually overly emphasized in polytheistic or animist religions, in which there is often little or no concept of dogma, and varied interpretations of doctrine and theology are tolerated and sometimes even encouraged within certain contexts. The prevailing governing idea within polytheism is often orthopraxy ("right practice") rather than "right belief". In Mormonism, it is an adherence to religious forms, ceremonial worship, creeds of excepted beliefs like 'if you keep Family Home Evening, you children when grown they will eventually return to you or the faith. If you pay your tithing, it is fire insurance in the resurrection and the windows of heaven will be open unto you. If you attend the Temple regularly and keep your covenants, you will be a family forever.
Modernist Theology was a religious controversy in the 1920s and '30s within the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America that later created divisions in most American Christian denominations as well. The major American denomination was torn by conflict over the issues of theology and ecclesiology. Underneath those struggles lay profound concerns about the role of Christianity in the culture and how that role was to be expressed.
The following origins of the characterization of the controversy. All in all the new scientific approach to the Bible caused men and women to ask themselves whether the Bible was merely a collection of myths, legends, and folklore, whether there was a kernel of history in it – and if so, what that kernel contained. The imagery of the ‘kernel’ and the ‘husk’ was immensely popular in modernist discourse. Actually it was a modern rephrasing of a much older distinction in religious history, that between the ‘necessaria’ and ‘non-necessaria’ The term Christian Conservatives in the United States made their own in the anti-modernist crusade in the early twentieth century, and ‘Modernist’, a term coined in 1920, is merely a label derived from this notion. In Mormonism, it is the Literalist verses Modernist.
Biblical Literalism is a term used differently by different authors concerning Bible interpretation. It can have one of two possible meanings. It can equate to the dictionary definition of literalism: "adherence to the exact letter or the literal sense", where literal means "in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical". This approach often obscures the literary aspects and consequently the primary meaning of the text.
Alternatively, the term can refer to the historical-grammatical method, a hermeneutic technique that strives to uncover the meaning of the text by taking into account not just the grammatical words, but also the syntactical aspects, the cultural and historical background, and the literary genre. It emphasizes the referential aspect of the words in the text without denying the relevance of literary aspects, genre, or figures of speech within the text (e.g., parable, allegory, simile, or metaphor). It does not necessarily lead to complete agreement upon one single interpretation of any given passage. Those who relate Biblical literalism to the historical-grammatical method, use the word "letterism" to cover interpreting the Bible according to the dictionary definition of literalism. In Mormonism, it is a belief in every word spoken by the Prophet and the Apostles. They believe literally every word recorded that the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke.
Sectarianism, according to one definition, is bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion, class, regional or factions of a political movement.
The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviours labelled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied. Members of a religious group may believe that their own salvation, or the success of their particular objectives, requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups; adherents of a given faction may believe that for the achievement of their own political or religious project their internal opponents must be converted or purged.
Sometimes a group that is under economic or political pressure will kill or attack members of another group which it regards as responsible for its own decline. It may also more rigidly define the definition of orthodox belief within its particular group or organization, and expel or excommunicate those who do not support this new found clarified definition of political or religious orthodoxy. In other cases, dissenters from this orthodoxy will secede from the orthodox organization and proclaim themselves as practitioners of a reformed belief system, or holders of a perceived former orthodoxy. At other times, sectarianism may be the expression of a group's nationalistic or cultural ambitions, or exploited by demagogues. This belief is found in those who adopt Socialism, like Pope Francis. In Mormonism, it is usually found in those who claim special Priesthood authority, blessings, or callings, and are willing to take ex-stream actions to defend or promote their faith. Non-sectarians espouse that free association and tolerance of different beliefs are the cornerstone to successful peaceful human interaction. They espouse political and religious pluralism.
How would you now vote?
1.) I would not change my vote!
2.) I now understand I am actually a Fundamentalist Mormon.
3.) I now understand I am actually a Orthodox Mormon.
4.) I now understand I am actually a Modernist Mormon.
5.) I now understand I am actually a Literalist Mormon.
6.) I now understand I am actually a Sectarian Mormon.
We are all individuals down here to prove to ourselves who and what we are. That is the eternal plan. It really does not matter whether it is what we always were or that it is what we have chosen to become through our agency down here... but that we will one day agree with the Fathers Judgment. Now in light of your choices here in this poll, let me ask you this one last question.
How would the Messiah vote?
1.) I believe I am a Fundamentalist, or in Fundamentalism Mormon.
2.) I believe I am Orthodox, or in Orthodoxy Mormon.
3.) I believe I am a Modernist, or in Modernism Mormon.
4.) I believe I am a Literalist, or in Literalism Mormon.
5.) I believe I am a Sectarian, or in Sectarianism Mormon.
Here is where we see how honest we can be with ourselves and others here! Here we just might glimpse where we are off course and need to rethink labels we reject, not because we actually know what they were, but because someone told us those known by that label were/are bad. The Messiah said the world WILL hate those who are like Him, but that we should not worry, because they hated Him first. If you are not that hatred, are you on the right path? When the anti-Christ comes forth in a half dozen years, and makes war on the Saints and prevails, will you be willing to change your approach to faith to try to avoid that persecution, having not endured any to this point. You know we are living in the END TIME! RIGHT?
So, after reading this poll, did you change your word definition for yourself, that defines the type of Mormon you are? Are you the same type as you think the Messiah is? Something to ponder!
The term usually has a religious connotation indicating unwavering attachment to a set of beliefs, but fundamentalism has come to be applied to a broad tendency among certain groups, mainly, although not exclusively, in religion. This tendency is most often characterized by a markedly strict application to certain specific scriptures, dogmas, or ideologies, and a strong sense of the importance of maintaining ingroup and outgroup distinctions, which can lead to an emphasis on purity and the desire to return to a previous ideal from which it is believed that members have begun to stray. Rejection of diversity of opinion as applied to these established "fundamentals" and their accepted interpretation within the group is often the result of this tendency.
Pope [Francis] Condemns Religious Fundamentalism (First Publish: 6/13/2014, 3:52 PM) "A fundamentalist group, even if it kills no one, even it strikes no one, is violent. The mental structure of fundamentalism is violence in the name of God." In Mormonism, it is the grouping of separatist or groups who adhere to original doctrines.
Orthodoxy (from Greek orthos ("right", "true", "straight") + doxa ("opinion" or "belief", related to dokein, "to think"), is adherence to accepted norms, more specifically to creeds, especially in religion. In the Christian sense the term means "conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early Church".
The concept of orthodoxy is prevalent in many forms of organized monotheism, but orthodox belief is not usually overly emphasized in polytheistic or animist religions, in which there is often little or no concept of dogma, and varied interpretations of doctrine and theology are tolerated and sometimes even encouraged within certain contexts. The prevailing governing idea within polytheism is often orthopraxy ("right practice") rather than "right belief". In Mormonism, it is an adherence to religious forms, ceremonial worship, creeds of excepted beliefs like 'if you keep Family Home Evening, you children when grown they will eventually return to you or the faith. If you pay your tithing, it is fire insurance in the resurrection and the windows of heaven will be open unto you. If you attend the Temple regularly and keep your covenants, you will be a family forever.
Modernist Theology was a religious controversy in the 1920s and '30s within the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America that later created divisions in most American Christian denominations as well. The major American denomination was torn by conflict over the issues of theology and ecclesiology. Underneath those struggles lay profound concerns about the role of Christianity in the culture and how that role was to be expressed.
The following origins of the characterization of the controversy. All in all the new scientific approach to the Bible caused men and women to ask themselves whether the Bible was merely a collection of myths, legends, and folklore, whether there was a kernel of history in it – and if so, what that kernel contained. The imagery of the ‘kernel’ and the ‘husk’ was immensely popular in modernist discourse. Actually it was a modern rephrasing of a much older distinction in religious history, that between the ‘necessaria’ and ‘non-necessaria’ The term Christian Conservatives in the United States made their own in the anti-modernist crusade in the early twentieth century, and ‘Modernist’, a term coined in 1920, is merely a label derived from this notion. In Mormonism, it is the Literalist verses Modernist.
Biblical Literalism is a term used differently by different authors concerning Bible interpretation. It can have one of two possible meanings. It can equate to the dictionary definition of literalism: "adherence to the exact letter or the literal sense", where literal means "in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical". This approach often obscures the literary aspects and consequently the primary meaning of the text.
Alternatively, the term can refer to the historical-grammatical method, a hermeneutic technique that strives to uncover the meaning of the text by taking into account not just the grammatical words, but also the syntactical aspects, the cultural and historical background, and the literary genre. It emphasizes the referential aspect of the words in the text without denying the relevance of literary aspects, genre, or figures of speech within the text (e.g., parable, allegory, simile, or metaphor). It does not necessarily lead to complete agreement upon one single interpretation of any given passage. Those who relate Biblical literalism to the historical-grammatical method, use the word "letterism" to cover interpreting the Bible according to the dictionary definition of literalism. In Mormonism, it is a belief in every word spoken by the Prophet and the Apostles. They believe literally every word recorded that the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke.
Sectarianism, according to one definition, is bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion, class, regional or factions of a political movement.
The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviours labelled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied. Members of a religious group may believe that their own salvation, or the success of their particular objectives, requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups; adherents of a given faction may believe that for the achievement of their own political or religious project their internal opponents must be converted or purged.
Sometimes a group that is under economic or political pressure will kill or attack members of another group which it regards as responsible for its own decline. It may also more rigidly define the definition of orthodox belief within its particular group or organization, and expel or excommunicate those who do not support this new found clarified definition of political or religious orthodoxy. In other cases, dissenters from this orthodoxy will secede from the orthodox organization and proclaim themselves as practitioners of a reformed belief system, or holders of a perceived former orthodoxy. At other times, sectarianism may be the expression of a group's nationalistic or cultural ambitions, or exploited by demagogues. This belief is found in those who adopt Socialism, like Pope Francis. In Mormonism, it is usually found in those who claim special Priesthood authority, blessings, or callings, and are willing to take ex-stream actions to defend or promote their faith. Non-sectarians espouse that free association and tolerance of different beliefs are the cornerstone to successful peaceful human interaction. They espouse political and religious pluralism.
How would you now vote?
1.) I would not change my vote!
2.) I now understand I am actually a Fundamentalist Mormon.
3.) I now understand I am actually a Orthodox Mormon.
4.) I now understand I am actually a Modernist Mormon.
5.) I now understand I am actually a Literalist Mormon.
6.) I now understand I am actually a Sectarian Mormon.
We are all individuals down here to prove to ourselves who and what we are. That is the eternal plan. It really does not matter whether it is what we always were or that it is what we have chosen to become through our agency down here... but that we will one day agree with the Fathers Judgment. Now in light of your choices here in this poll, let me ask you this one last question.
How would the Messiah vote?
1.) I believe I am a Fundamentalist, or in Fundamentalism Mormon.
2.) I believe I am Orthodox, or in Orthodoxy Mormon.
3.) I believe I am a Modernist, or in Modernism Mormon.
4.) I believe I am a Literalist, or in Literalism Mormon.
5.) I believe I am a Sectarian, or in Sectarianism Mormon.
Here is where we see how honest we can be with ourselves and others here! Here we just might glimpse where we are off course and need to rethink labels we reject, not because we actually know what they were, but because someone told us those known by that label were/are bad. The Messiah said the world WILL hate those who are like Him, but that we should not worry, because they hated Him first. If you are not that hatred, are you on the right path? When the anti-Christ comes forth in a half dozen years, and makes war on the Saints and prevails, will you be willing to change your approach to faith to try to avoid that persecution, having not endured any to this point. You know we are living in the END TIME! RIGHT?
So, after reading this poll, did you change your word definition for yourself, that defines the type of Mormon you are? Are you the same type as you think the Messiah is? Something to ponder!
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on October 1st, 2014, 10:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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TZONE
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1724
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
I believe in Christ. I hope to be a Disciple of Christ.
Not counting votes.
Not counting votes.
4 Nephi 1: 17neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.
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Obrien
- Up, up and away.
- Posts: 4951
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
I think I'm an orthodox fundamentalist with modern literal leanings.
edit - iow, a mormon mutt.
edit - iow, a mormon mutt.
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
Sorry it is hard to post multiple posts, but I condensed it down into two...
This poll is actually what Christians have polarized into. Mormons do not have quite so defines groups yet, but looking at Women who seek Priesthood and the Gays, and then there is the Apologist about the Book of Abraham, and lets not overlook the Molly Mormons, the Utah Mormons, or the Live Long Members verses the Converts.
We have the same groups, just call by different names.
Shalom
This poll is actually what Christians have polarized into. Mormons do not have quite so defines groups yet, but looking at Women who seek Priesthood and the Gays, and then there is the Apologist about the Book of Abraham, and lets not overlook the Molly Mormons, the Utah Mormons, or the Live Long Members verses the Converts.
We have the same groups, just call by different names.
Shalom
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
Everyone of these five types of beliefs of worship in Mormonism would all agree with your goal. It is HOW YOU SEEK to reach this goal that is what is being asked here. Fundamentalist Mormons are the Essence of the Messiah's day. Orthodox Mormons are the Sadducee. Mormon Literalism is the Pharisees. So these groups of different approaches to faith are always from the very beginning, yet they all claimed to be worship the same G_d.TZONE wrote:I believe in Christ. I hope to be a Disciple of Christ.
Not counting votes.
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
So does that mean you attend church every Sunday, but on Saturday nights you attend a study group, or post here?Obrien wrote:I think I'm an orthodox fundamentalist with modern literal leanings.
edit - iow, a mormon mutt.
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
No one said you could not attend multiple churches or groups, have different tendencies or approaches to your faith. It is between you and G_d. I was only hoping to help some see they are maybe something different when they believe or that they actually are. Many times people go through the motions without thinking out loud what actually the definition of how they worship means.sen6b wrote:I don't think i fit completely into any of those. A few things from a few of them.
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Obrien
- Up, up and away.
- Posts: 4951
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
yes.
attend church virtually every week. teach ( mostly) correlated materials in adult primary. listen to / watch general conference, interest level is waning in that. ditto, but less acutely, for stake conference. I love the church ( being the people) and feel most try to do what they think is right. some have ulterior motives, that doesn't bother me unless they are just evil (I've seen only a couple of those).
I don't believe in smoking pot, porn, abortion, divorce or SSA. I will tell you why I have my feelings if you ask, but won't push my beliefs on you. you are supposed to be captain of your ship. people have to be free to try, do, and fail. it wouldn't bother me if women held the priesthood. I'd support a woman bishop in my ward, a woman stake president and a woman GA. I'd love to meet my Mother in heaven someday. I assume that would be after meeting Brother and Father, which would also be wonderful. I am a sinner who routinely falls short of the mark, but I try not to be overcome with feelings if inadequacy over it. I got a great lesson one about our efforts from a friendly moderator that has significantly affected my thought process in regard to my sins.
I have a nice family, a very sweet and patient Catholic wife. we've been married for over 25 years. I was an insensitive TBM prick about religion for a long time. now I'm trying not to be so narrow minded and dogmatic. I don't deserve the blessings I've been given, and I suffer from the most universal sin - ingratitude.
please diagnose me, and stick me in the appropriate category.
ps - I do post on the forum occasionally. is that a form of worship?
attend church virtually every week. teach ( mostly) correlated materials in adult primary. listen to / watch general conference, interest level is waning in that. ditto, but less acutely, for stake conference. I love the church ( being the people) and feel most try to do what they think is right. some have ulterior motives, that doesn't bother me unless they are just evil (I've seen only a couple of those).
I don't believe in smoking pot, porn, abortion, divorce or SSA. I will tell you why I have my feelings if you ask, but won't push my beliefs on you. you are supposed to be captain of your ship. people have to be free to try, do, and fail. it wouldn't bother me if women held the priesthood. I'd support a woman bishop in my ward, a woman stake president and a woman GA. I'd love to meet my Mother in heaven someday. I assume that would be after meeting Brother and Father, which would also be wonderful. I am a sinner who routinely falls short of the mark, but I try not to be overcome with feelings if inadequacy over it. I got a great lesson one about our efforts from a friendly moderator that has significantly affected my thought process in regard to my sins.
I have a nice family, a very sweet and patient Catholic wife. we've been married for over 25 years. I was an insensitive TBM prick about religion for a long time. now I'm trying not to be so narrow minded and dogmatic. I don't deserve the blessings I've been given, and I suffer from the most universal sin - ingratitude.
please diagnose me, and stick me in the appropriate category.
ps - I do post on the forum occasionally. is that a form of worship?
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
Obrien wrote:yes.
attend church virtually every week. teach ( mostly) correlated materials in adult primary. listen to / watch general conference, interest level is waning in that. ditto, but less acutely, for stake conference. I love the church ( being the people) and feel most try to do what they think is right. some have ulterior motives, that doesn't bother me unless they are just evil (I've seen only a couple of those).
I don't believe in smoking pot, porn, abortion, divorce or SSA. I will tell you why I have my feelings if you ask, but won't push my beliefs on you. you are supposed to be captain of your ship. people have to be free to try, do, and fail. it wouldn't bother me if women held the priesthood. I'd support a woman bishop in my ward, a woman stake president and a woman GA. I'd love to meet my Mother in heaven someday. I assume that would be after meeting Brother and Father, which would also be wonderful. I am a sinner who routinely falls short of the mark, but I try not to be overcome with feelings if inadequacy over it. I got a great lesson one about our efforts from a friendly moderator that has significantly affected my thought process in regard to my sins.
I have a nice family, a very sweet and patient Catholic wife. we've been married for over 25 years. I was an insensitive TBM prick about religion for a long time. now I'm trying not to be so narrow minded and dogmatic. I don't deserve the blessings I've been given, and I suffer from the most universal sin - ingratitude.
please diagnose me, and stick me in the appropriate category.
I am not here to judge anyone or to try and tell them how the seek G_d. You know yourself, whether your a by the book, letter for letter person, or if your open to any changes the GA wish. Or if your a free thinker, outside the box, or a conformist. Sins is part of the mortal condition, if they stop you from seeking spiritual faith, then they may push you to act differently in your walk with G_d.
For what its worth, your definantly not a Fundamentalist if you think women in the Priesthood is kosher. Modernist probably fits the bill.
P.S. I do not text much, so what is SSA and TBM? Totally or True Believing Mormon?
ps - I do post on the forum occasionally. is that a form of worship?
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TannerG
- captain of 100
- Posts: 585
- Location: Parallel universe
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
TBM- True Believing Mormon, or True Blue Mormon
SSA- Same Sex Attraction or Simple Salami Advertising
I think I might be considered a fundamentalist because I tend to lean more to scripture and the teachings of Joseph Smith. I also enjoy studying the Hebrew perspective to understand how the Gospel was originally being taught to God's people. I also have some modernist understanding.
The term fundamentalist has been taken to mean polygamist, but there is a difference, though they are often found together.
SSA- Same Sex Attraction or Simple Salami Advertising
I think I might be considered a fundamentalist because I tend to lean more to scripture and the teachings of Joseph Smith. I also enjoy studying the Hebrew perspective to understand how the Gospel was originally being taught to God's people. I also have some modernist understanding.
The term fundamentalist has been taken to mean polygamist, but there is a difference, though they are often found together.
Last edited by TannerG on October 3rd, 2014, 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Obrien
- Up, up and away.
- Posts: 4951
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
agreed tannerg. what could be more fundamental to mormonism than Joseph Smith? he wanted the women to be a force for good, with the priesthood. that's fundamental.
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boo
- captain of 1,000
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- Location: Arizona
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Kingdom of ZION
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1939
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
That was some of the reason why I posted this poll. I wanted to point out the different types of Mormon's that are found in most faiths. Fundamentalist Mormons do seek those things you listed, but they are unbalanced in their application of seeking the fullness of the Gospel.TannerG wrote:TBM- True Believing Mormon, or True Blue Mormon
SSA- Same Sex Attraction or Simple Salami Advertising
I think I might be considered a fundamentalist because I tend to lean more to scripture and the teachings of Joseph Smith. I also enjoy studying the Hebrew perspective to understand how the Gospel was originally being taught to God's people. I also have some modernist understanding.
The term fundamentalist has been taken to mean polygamist, but there is a difference, though they are often found together.
Obrien thinks Women in the Priesthood is Fundamental to Mormonism. That is having a faith in something that Joseph Smith never did. That hardly make it fundamental but there is no hard and fast rules here. I proposed it fit much more nicely in Modernism, which if the Church eventually does surrender to public pressure, granting women the Priesthood, then it will be part of Modernism.
In your pursuit to study the Hebrew perspective to understand how the Gospel was originally being taught to God's people. Might I suggest El Shaddai Ministries http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and downloading some of Mark Biltz's Video Archives, podcasts, or mp3s. The best Messianic preacher I have come across. Very knowledgeable in traditions of the Jews and Torah.
Shalom
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TannerG
- captain of 100
- Posts: 585
- Location: Parallel universe
Re: Unofficial Poll... were not counting the votes.
Good point about fundamentalism. While I believe that public discussion should be confined to scripture, I think it is essential to be open to anything that the Lord sees fit to reveal to you. W must be new bottles for new wine.
