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[hyloglyph]

Transparency is not a bad thing. But that doesn't mean that it's always relevant or necessary. Does knowing the churches finances have any effect either way on our salvation? No it doesn't. So perhaps we should focus more on the things that DO effect our salvation.

I agree.

Don't waste 2 minutes on this.

It doesn't affect our salvation.

Excuse me now

While I go back to watching

Another episode of Dawson's Creek.

[wompus]

I don't recall you asking me a question about that - I recall you making an accusation out of thin air after I stated that my testimony is of God and the Savior.

Here's what you said:

Quote: 'Now if you want to ask how secrecy and half-truths and some of the things I've seen first hand affects my trust in the corporation..." Close Quote! :ymsmug:

So yes, since you think the church, or 'corporation' as you call it, is hiding things and lying to people, I am making the LOGICAL conclusion that if you think the church is HIDING and LYING you are thinking that the church IS NOT being guided by God...

So yes, I am concluding, based on your posts, that you DO NOT believe the LDS church is guided by MEN CHOSEN BY GOD today! I am concluding that your TESTIMONY is that the LDS Church LEADERSHIP is corrupted and that they are not guided by God and therefore the LDS Church is not longer a TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH (meaning a church who has MEN who are called by God to be his mouthpiece on earth and who are guided by his Spirit in making choices for his kingdom on earth, ie the corporation as you call it)

IS that you're Stance or NOT?! That's a direct questions asking for a DIRECT answer! Like NEPHI, I glory in PLAINNESS!

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I don't recall you asking me a question about that - I recall you making an accusation out of thin air after I stated that my testimony is of God and the Savior.

Here's what you said:

Quote: 'Now if you want to ask how secrecy and half-truths and some of the things I've seen first hand affects my trust in the corporation..." Close Quote! :ymsmug:

So yes, since you think the church, or 'corporation' as you call it, is hiding things and lying to people, I am making the LOGICAL conclusion that if you think the church is HIDING and LYING you are thinking that the church IS NOT being guided by God...

So yes, I am concluding, based on your posts, that you DO NOT believe the LDS church is guided by MEN CHOSEN BY GOD today! I am concluding that your TESTIMONY is that the LDS Church LEADERSHIP is corrupted and that they are not guided by God and therefore the LDS Church is not longer a TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH (meaning a church who has MEN who are called by God to be his mouthpiece on earth and who are guided by his Spirit in making choices for his kingdom on earth, ie the corporation as you call it)

IS that you're Stance or NOT?! That's a direct questions asking for a DIRECT answer! Like NEPHI, I glory in PLAINNESS!

I glory in people not making A$$umptions about me and twisting my words. ;)

BTW, "Corporation of the President" is the legal name of the legal business entity that is DBA: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". You can go to the UT state records and look up the articles of incorporation for yourself and see the way the business legally operates - before we even get a chance to vote every 6 months. Check it out if you dare ;) .

[Jake]

So yes, since you think the church, or 'corporation' as you call it is hiding things and lying to people, I am making the LOGICAL conclusion that if you think the church is HIDING and LYING you are thinking that doing something wrong and is not being guided by God... since you know that God wants done with the churches assets... so yes, I am concluding based on your posts that you DO NOT believe the LDS church is guided by MEN CHOSEN BY GOD today! IS that you're Stance or NOT?! That's a direct questions asking for a DIRECT answer!

Your line of questioning serves only to distract from the premise of the OP, which is that hiding the financial condition of the church is not something that ought to be done. Instead, you have turned it into a personal examination of Jules' personal beliefs? Why? Are you trying to distract everyone from the question at hand? How are her beliefs about this matter relevant at all to the OP?

[wompus]

So yes, since you think the church, or 'corporation' as you call it, is hiding things and lying to people, I am making the LOGICAL conclusion that if you think the church is HIDING and LYING you are thinking that the church IS NOT being guided by God...

So yes, I am concluding, based on your posts, that you DO NOT believe the LDS church is guided by MEN CHOSEN BY GOD today! I am concluding that your TESTIMONY is that the LDS Church LEADERSHIP is corrupted and that they are not guided by God and therefore the LDS Church is not longer a TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH (meaning a church who has MEN who are called by God to be his mouthpiece on earth and who are guided by his Spirit in making choices for his kingdom on earth, ie the corporation as you call it)

IS that you're Stance or NOT?! That's a direct questions asking for a DIRECT answer! Like NEPHI, I glory in PLAINNESS!

I glory in people not making A$$umptions about me and twisting my words. ;)

BTW, "Corporation of the President" is the legal name of the legal business entity that is DBA: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". You can go to the UT state records and look up the articles of incorporation for yourself and see the way the business legally operates - before we even get a chance to vote every 6 months. Check it out if you dare ;) .

Yes, I know the church owns corporations... in fact the church is a corporation.. a 401(c)3 Non-Profit corporation... A 'corporation' is a PIECE OF PAPER one files for tax and legal protection... and like you said, you're allowed to see if people have filed a PIECE OF PAPER with the states to get those tax statuses or legal protection... Not going to LOOSE my testimony because the church USES legally and ETHICALLY the laws of the land to their own benefit, like EVERY other charity out there!

What does that have to do with the church being guided by men called of God? Is the Catholic church and every other church evil because they are a 'corporation'... as all churches are corporations as issued by their states and filed with the IRS?

But still no ANSWER... I'm just asking you for some TRANSPARENCY as to if you have a testimony about the LDS Church being currently misled by wicked leaders or leaders who are called and currently inspired by God..... what say YE?

[wompus]

So yes, since you think the church, or 'corporation' as you call it is hiding things and lying to people, I am making the LOGICAL conclusion that if you think the church is HIDING and LYING you are thinking that doing something wrong and is not being guided by God... since you know that God wants done with the churches assets... so yes, I am concluding based on your posts that you DO NOT believe the LDS church is guided by MEN CHOSEN BY GOD today! IS that you're Stance or NOT?! That's a direct questions asking for a DIRECT answer!

Your line of questioning serves only to distract from the premise of the OP, which is that hiding the financial condition of the church is not something that ought to be done. Instead, you have turned it into a personal examination of Jules' personal beliefs? Why? Are you trying to distract everyone from the question at hand? How are her beliefs about this matter relevant at all to the OP?

I'll sign that petition as soon as everyone here who signed that petition posts all their financial info online... that means the last 7 years of your bank statements, credit card statements, balance sheets, income statements and tax returns... and then I get to judge whether or not you can have a temple recommend based on if you've paid a full tithe and see how much you actually are donating to charity other than the LDS church!

[pjbrownie]

Transparency helps for several reasons:

1. The Church has thousands of employees, and an audit that is only reviewed by the Brethren, they may miss something, isn't it better for many eyes than just a few? The propensity for mistakes are huge, and men are imperfect with money, so it's a logical conclusion.
2. It's required by revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants
3. The Church did it until 1960, so why stop? Unless if my revelation and then if so, please so us said revelation

One can still believe in the prophet and think it's a good idea to be transparent.

[wompus]

Transparency helps for several reasons:

1. The Church has thousands of employees, and an audit that is only reviewed by the Brethren, they may miss something, isn't it better for many eyes than just a few? The propensity for mistakes are huge, and men are imperfect with money, so it's a logical conclusion.
2. It's required by revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants
3. The Church did it until 1960, so why stop? Unless if my revelation and then if so, please so us said revelation

One can still believe in the prophet and think it's a good idea to be transparent.

They have a yearly annual audit done by an INDEPENDANT firm... you hear about that audit once a year every APRIL... if you don't believe their not independent enough, give them a call.... speak to past auditors of the church and see what they think, etc... or see if they will open the records of the church to you!

[wompus]

I'm betting those here who are clamoring for TRANSPARENCY do not donate 1% of their income to charity outside of the churches required 10% tithe.. and that makes me wonder if they are even donating an honest tithe.... boy I sure wish I had some transparency here to see if people here are a bunch of hypocrites!

[pjbrownie]

All that does is prove that funds were accounted for according to GAPP procedures. It doesn't show the church members where the money is being allocated for what purposes. I have no doubt the Church is financially sound and above board when it comes to the legal accounting issues. That's not the point.

[jbalm]

It's GAAP, but otherwise you are correct.

[Obrien]

wompus - I'll not post my financial records online. I am accountable to my employers, clients, spouse and the Lord for what I do with what I earn. that's my business. there is no scriptural mandate that I disclose any financial info. except for an annual tithing settlement where a church rep asks me if I'm fair with the Lord.

the church has clear commandments regarding expenditures. the church should be responsible, per Gordon Hinckley, for how the money is spent. what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

go sign the petition and do something useful today. Thx

[wrsales]

Wompus, you're call for people to display all of their financial information is so ridiculous, I refuse to believe that you see those two things as the same. The difference is we aren't collecting tithes from millions of people and then building malls, temples, churches, hunting reserves, buying land in florida, etc. while neglecting the poor in our back yard.

[Steve Clark]

I'm betting those here who are clamoring for TRANSPARENCY do not donate 1% of their income to charity outside of the churches required 10% tithe.. and that makes me wonder if they are even donating an honest tithe.... boy I sure wish I had some transparency here to see if people here are a bunch of hypocrites!

You would lose that bet.

[Obrien]

aaahhh, talk is cheap Steve. can you back up your generosity with a stack of small yellow receipts? I THOUGHT NOT!

[FoxMammaWisdom]

But still no ANSWER... I'm just asking you for some TRANSPARENCY as to if you have a testimony about the LDS Church being currently misled by wicked leaders or leaders who are called and currently inspired by God..... what say YE?

The church owes me transparency if they claim to be MY leaders, and the prophets I'm supposed to "follow", and using my money to build up great and spacious buildings. They are flesh - with arms.

I on the other hand, owe you nothing - you're a dude on the internet who is trolling and picking fights.

If I am led by the Lord to testify of something, I will. But I'm not falling prey to some guy demanding I explain my personal thoughts and feelings and relationship with God. If you don't agree with my position that I think the church should be transparent - you can disagree all you want. But as I explained, my relationship with you is much different than my relationship with the church.

Back to the OP, and done with this.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

So yes, since you think the church, or 'corporation' as you call it is hiding things and lying to people, I am making the LOGICAL conclusion that if you think the church is HIDING and LYING you are thinking that doing something wrong and is not being guided by God... since you know that God wants done with the churches assets... so yes, I am concluding based on your posts that you DO NOT believe the LDS church is guided by MEN CHOSEN BY GOD today! IS that you're Stance or NOT?! That's a direct questions asking for a DIRECT answer!

Your line of questioning serves only to distract from the premise of the OP, which is that hiding the financial condition of the church is not something that ought to be done. Instead, you have turned it into a personal examination of Jules' personal beliefs? Why? Are you trying to distract everyone from the question at hand? How are her beliefs about this matter relevant at all to the OP?

I'll sign that petition as soon as everyone here who signed that petition posts all their financial info online... that means the last 7 years of your bank statements, credit card statements, balance sheets, income statements and tax returns... and then I get to judge whether or not you can have a temple recommend based on if you've paid a full tithe and see how much you actually are donating to charity other than the LDS church!

OK then, you've stated your position. Be done with the attacks.

[Obrien]

yes, sadly I've let work and wompus derail this thread.

good news - 18 signatures added in 8 hours. that is over 1% of the total number of signers! all it will take is another 761 years give or take until all 5 million active members sign on. that's a drop in the bucket compared to eternity.

[Steve Clark]

yes, sadly I've let work and wompus derail this thread.

good news - 18 signatures added in 8 hours. that is over 1% of the total number of signers! all it will take is another 761 years give or take until all 5 million active members sign on. that's a drop in the bucket compared to eternity.

What growth model are you using for future church growth? I don't think there will be five million active members is 761 years.

[firebaptismglory]

I thought you were referring to the website bycommonconsent.com. I didn't read carefully enough the OP. I now know that is not the case.

I'm off to check out what the site says.

UPDATE: I signed the petition.

[TannerG]

I believe it was Joseph F. Smith who, after countering accusations that the brethren were misusing tithing funds said, "Now put that in your pipe and smoke it." One of my favorite quotes.

I trust that the brethren are good men who do not take their responsibility over the sacred tithing funds lightly. However,why not do what the scripture says?

Signed.

[Obrien]

@ tannerg - you're more optimistic about tithing use than me. however, the problem is neither me, you, not even wompus really knows because they won't say. that's wrong. thanks for signing.

@ Steve - bro, I manage construction projects. in my line of work, it's all straight line projection. I took 5 million active LDS, divided by 18 signatures per day = 761 years. I agree, 5 million probably isn't a good guess, but it's probably a moot point. I'm just happy that one little thread caused some action on this issue. I suggested last week on another thread to quit paying all together and give to the Corp via fast offering only. Boo informed us that FO are now swept up by the Corp and checks by bishops don't bounce. now we'll have to find alternative ways to give, or join a Zion group or something. go see sen6b's thread about her friend dying of cancer. 6 kids and young 30's... sad. I wish the saints in Utah would take 1 weeks worth of tithing and give it to that family.

[wompus]

So I'm attacking... okay, I won't do any attacking here... I'll state MY opinion...

First of all, the church is auditing not just according to GAAP, they are audited according to the revelations the Lord has given... if you have ever listened to an April conference and heard the auditing report... you will see that there are several types of audit's performed... ie GAAP audit by CPA's, system audit and internal auditors who are given instructions to audit the financials of the church based on the churches guidelines...

Most people don't understand what this means... as being in the financial industry with my licenses I know how it works in a large organization... The head of the organization doesn't make all the financial decisions of the organization, that would be impossible, so they set guidelines and then have auditors audit the organization based on those guidelines... those auditors work with the decision makers to point out errors, correct and sustain their decisions. If they find an error or a way to make things better, they point it out to make sure the guidelines are being followed... Most auditing companies follow strict guidelines as their reputation is on the line... their reputation is what brings them business. If they audit something and later its found to be in error, that could cost them a WHOLE lot of money, or even their practice...

So yes, they are audited independently based on the revelations of the Lord... and many of those auditors are not friendly to the church and are very critical, just like you guys are, of the church... heck, many of them are members and are very critical... the church goes through great lengths to be in compliant with the revelations of the church... not that people understand that...

Secondly, I don't see where it says the church has to be transparent in all things... and if I remember right, all things will be made known, so you're not wanting to share your financials is really futile, I'll know someday where you were a hypocrite or not, if you donated your money to the poor or not... I don't think the church owes me anything... I'm not ENTITLED to judge the church...

And that's really my opinion... I believe the church is true, I believe men who are mortals run the church... I know for a fact church funds have been mishandled at times, doesn't the Lord give someone authority and want to see what they do with that authority... does that give you the right to criticize... is the church like a political party that you have the supposed right to campaign the church for changes to their policies... Does your tithing dollars earn you a 'vote' in the church? Does money even matter to the Lord... is it more about you obeying the commandments than making sure everyone makes the right choices? No one has really given me a good argument other than quoting some scriptures saying that they think they should have a right to inspect the financials of the church.... and quite honestly I don't care if they do or not make them public... what people will not do here on this blog is admit their intentions behind WHY they want to see those financials... it's to find FAULT with the church to gratify their pride...

I believe the church is ran by a prophet called of God... I don't care so much if people called to positions make mistakes because I'll be judged the same way... I figure if I'm critical of the church not being perfect in their expenditures that the Lord will treat me the same way, and I guarantee the church dontates 1000x the percentage to charity than people here do with their funds, and I'm not talking dollar amount, I'm talking percent of income!

[Obrien]

tl;dr.
read first 2 " paragraphs". if you're an auditor who does work for the church, you might have a basis for your suppositions. if you're not, and your basing your suppositions on experience with other institutions, I submit you have no sound basis for your conclusions. THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM. in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

edit - I'm 100% intentional ^^^ in using Christ's name. no vain babbling here.

[ElectLady]

Why sign the petition... all those critical of the church say they can go directly to the Lord and he'll reveal the truth of EVERYTHING to you... why not ask the Lord to tell you how the church is spending your money? Or does the Lord NOT reveal the truth of EVERYTHING to us... why will the Lord keep secret how the Church is spending his money?

Just as we don't need to pray for angels to read the scriptures to us, we don't need the Lord to discuss contributions and financial activity of the church to us. He has agents on earth for these purposes.