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[Bee Prepared]

Like I said once before, will any of you believe the financial statement? Will you accuse our leaders of lying? Whats your next move, what will you accuse these men of next.

I could care less who gets church aid. I am so blessed to have not needed it, and I gladly contribute to those in need. I simply believe accountability is important for everyone, including anointed leaders. Is that too hard to understand?

Pretty BASIC stuff.

It has nothing to do with wanting to find nefarious activity, but everything to do with simple honesty, basic accountability, common decency and common consent, how things used to be done in the church and how they should have continued to be done.

Lots of MM's agree. It's a little disconcerting find people so against it. Is leadership there to serve the body or dictate to the body?

They are to serve and direct according to the Lord, the body does not dictate to them.
( not everybody is a hero!)

[Sirocco]

For me I find it accusatory and thats what it is. The remarks that have been made concerning our leaders tell me so. I seriously doubt that the majority of our membership would sign such a petition.

A majority of the LDS membership vaccinate their kids. Just because the majority is doing something or not doing something, really doe
sn't mean squat in my opinion.

I don't agree with vaccinations and I don't agree with what money does to people.Two different subjects. I don't follow the majority on anything, I follow my promptings and I know that this church is directed by Christ himself. These men are not perfect, I wouldn't want their job! If they choose to release a financial statement, the people who know better than our Prophet and Apostles will just spew more of their wisdom on how the church should be.ran, am I correct? Tithing is a debt owed to the Lord, He will do as he pleases with it. If our leaders make a mistake, He will forgive them or take them out. It"s not anyone elses call. So there caddis, ;)
P.S. Don't get mad at me, I am very opinionated, and I enjoy being your friend.
And ajax, you are the best,

What does God need with money?
What does God need with a church?
What does God need with a Starship?

Further more, money isn't real, it's as real as the belief in it, I have dozens of bills that are worthless because the countries don't exist anymore or some other thing.
Or the country is very poor so it's worth very little, you're telling me God is owed a thing that, for all intensive purposes, isn't real?
This isn't like the days of gold and silver, my paper twenty has no true value, only the one assigned to it, and since the Canadian economy is sucky, its value is lower.
What would God see the value of in an idea we made up?
Or, as I truly suspect, God has nothing to do with it and it's just going to the church so they can do who knows with it?
Church doesn't deserve my money and God is beyond the need for it.
All knowing, all powerful, just can't handle money. Created a world, a universe but on 1 planet he needs their paper currency. But only the ones we still think are worth anything, if I got paid 500 Rhodesian Pounds for digging a hole, he'd not want that.

[caddis]

For me I find it accusatory and thats what it is. The remarks that have been made concerning our leaders tell me so. I seriously doubt that the majority of our membership would sign such a petition.

A majority of the LDS membership vaccinate their kids. Just because the majority is doing something or not doing something, really doe
sn't mean squat in my opinion.

I don't agree with vaccinations and I don't agree with what money does to people.Two different subjects. I don't follow the majority on anything, I follow my promptings and I know that this church is directed by Christ himself. These men are not perfect, I wouldn't want their job! If they choose to release a financial statement, the people who know better than our Prophet and Apostles will just spew more of their wisdom on how the church should be.ran, am I correct? Tithing is a debt owed to the Lord, He will do as he pleases with it. If our leaders make a mistake, He will forgive them or take them out. It"s not anyone elses call. So there caddis, ;)
P.S. Don't get mad at me, I am very opinionated, and I enjoy being your friend.
And ajax, you are the best,

Not mad at you. :ymhug: I've just seen too many questionable decisions made with "sacred" funds to remain silent. I'm not referring to City Creek, although it is on the list.

We have a differing view of the brethren...that's okay too. I think they are good men, but not above being accountable to the general members. Like someone pointed out earlier, if we members are expected to give an accounting at the end of the year, then I expect the same in return. If the Lord no longer wants the church's finances to be reported, like was done until 1959, that's fine. However, I want to see the revelation received, be added to D&C. If not, then I simply view it as a policy change implemented by men. I don't want an Official Declaration stating they prayed about it and feel something either. I want to know exactly what the Lord said. When was the last time we received something like that? It's been a long, long time.

[Tony]

http://bycommonconsent.org/

if I did that right, you should be looking at a link the go and view a simply worded petition. the purpose of the petition is to let the church leaders know we want transparency in church finance. read it. be bold and sign it.

what's the worst that can happen - you self identify as a responsible person seeking to be responsible and they take away your temple recommend and kick you out of the church? does that idea concern you? doesn't it bother you more to be in a fear-based relationship?

The saints of the Holy One of Israel should pay their tithing, keep the Word of Wisdom, and sustain Jesus Christ's chosen and anointed leaders.

What's the worst that can happen if they don"t? They spend all those years in the spirit world trembling at the thought that they will appear before the judgment bar of Jesus Christ, and then they end up in the telestial kingdom for all of eternity. Nothing in this life is worse.

As for your claim that I am in a "fear-based relationship," the joy that I have in the gospel is immeasurable and incomparable.

And I see that there is a whopping 2035 people who signed the petition over the course of three years. The Church has more than 15 million members. The people signing it are following Satan. If they were following Jesus Christ, they would be right behind Thomas S. Monson, the prophet being led by Jesus Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:109
"But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore."

Doctrine and Covenants 132:22
"For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me."

[Obrien]

It is kinda funny, Tony. Perhaps the 14,997,965 who have not signed will be the "innumerable" denizens of the telestial world. After all, only a few (2,035) found the strait gate that leads to exaltation. Your selected scriptures more fully convince me of the correctness of signing the petition.

[Bee Prepared]

It is kinda funny, Tony. Perhaps the 14,997,965 who have not signed will be the "innumerable" denizens of the telestial world. After all, only a few (2,035) found the strait gate that leads to exaltation. Your selected scriptures more fully convince me of the correctness of signing the petition.

Whatever.

[Obrien]

When BeeP disses me, I KNOW I'm on the right track.

[Tony]

It is kinda funny, Tony. Perhaps the 14,997,965 who have not signed will be the "innumerable" denizens of the telestial world. After all, only a few (2,035) found the strait gate that leads to exaltation. Your selected scriptures more fully convince me of the correctness of signing the petition.

I fully expected you to put forth such a perspective.

So the chosen few such as yourself who rationalize disobeying God's commandments will be exalted while tens of millions who are faithful will be cast off at the last day?

It seems many of the saints fight against the Church for a multitude of reasons, whatever suits their fancy, but they all have one thing in common. They each view themselves as being the special one who knows the true path to exaltation outside of the path that has been laid out by Jesus Christ. It is thinking like yours that brought about the apostasy.

[Bee Prepared]

When BeeP disses me, I KNOW I'm on the right track.

Hardy har har. ;)

[Tony]

The majority are also sinners, does that justify your sin?
Majorities are a sucker's game...who cares what the herd is doing?

The herd is thinned as time goes by, but make no mistake about it, people are anxious to run with the herd because those who receive exaltation at the last day will be all that remains of what was once a herd. It is those who can endure all the trials who make it, not those who think God has revealed to them that there is a different way. Most of the herd will be thinking like you at the last day, thinking that God has revealed to them that there is a different way.

[samizdat]

There are quite a few Indian givers on this board.

When I give monetary gifts, I don't then ask the people who receive the money what they are going to spend it on. If anything, I give counsel like: Don't spend it all in one place.

If you don't want to give Church tithing because you don't trust the Church to do the right thing, it is simple. Don't give tithing, and don't complain about it. But if you do trust the Church to do the right thing, then by all means give your tithing.

[caddis]

There are quite a few Indian givers on this board.

When I give monetary gifts, I don't then ask the people who receive the money what they are going to spend it on. If anything, I give counsel like: Don't spend it all in one place.

If you don't want to give Church tithing because you don't trust the Church to do the right thing, it is simple. Don't give tithing, and don't complain about it. But if you do trust the Church to do the right thing, then by all means give your tithing.

I stopped giving to LDS Inc. about the time I signed the petition---Which was several months back. I now let the Lord direct as to where the money should go. You'd be amazed at how much more meaningful it has become, rather than "writing a check and 'knowing' the church knows where is the best place to use it" ---as a sister in our ward said one Sunday.

[shadow]

I let the Lord direct as well. He's directed me to pay tithing and a generous fast offering. I also donate to other causes that I feel prompted to donate to.

[Obrien]

I let the Lord direct as well. He's directed me to pay tithing and a generous fast offering. I also donate to other causes that I feel prompted to donate to.

Good job Shadow. You're, you're doing exactly what you should be doing, then.
You should allow caddis, me, lizzy60, thinker, et al the same discretion, without condemnation.

[shadow]

That's all fine and dandy, Obrien. Well, maybe not. See, they, and you, can claim that the church isn't handling funds correctly and that you feel the Lord has directed you to donate elsewhere, and oh how much more blessed you've been since you took the high road, but we, as in me, can't tell you guys that we're doing it right. See the double standard you want? Notice the hypocrisy?
"I pay tithing as it's been commanded, to the church" -shadow
"I used to do it that way but God said the church is wrong so now I do it differently and it's so much better" -you guys
"Actually, scripturally, you're the ones doing it wrong" -shadow
"You self righteous dweeb!" -you guys

[ajax]

Revised to reflect my reality:

That's all fine and dandy, Obrien. Well, maybe not. See, they, and you, can claim that the church isn't handling funds correctly and that you feel the Lord has directed you to donate elsewhere, and oh how much more blessed you've been since you took the high road, but we, as in me, can't tell you guys that we're doing it right. See the double standard you want? Notice the hypocrisy?
"I pay tithing as it's been commanded, to the church" -shadow
"I used to do it that way but God said the church is wrong so now I [should] do it differently and it's so much better" -you guys
"Actually, scripturally, you're the ones doing it wrong" -shadow
"You self righteous dweeb!" -you guys

Broad brush much?

[shadow]

You'd be amazed at how much more meaningful it has become

Ajax, why did you cross out some of my post? You shouldn't have. No, really.

[Obrien]

He was straightening it out to reflect reality.

[ajax]

Just clarifying my position so as not to be included in your swaths of "you guys"

[caddis]

Sounds good shadow. :-BD Maybe you are right and I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right and you are wrong. Or, maybe both of us are right? I know in your MM paradigm the 2nd and 3rd options can't be possible. It's okay. I once viewed things as you do. Now I don't. :ymhug:

[shadow]

I know in your MM paradigm the 2nd and 3rd options can't be possible. It's okay. I once viewed things as you do. Now I don't. :ymhug:

I know in your apostate paradigm the first option can't be possible. It's okay. Lots of excommunicated people view things as you do. They used to keep the law of tithing, but now they don't O:-)

Oh crap, sorry obrien #-o


;)

[caddis]

I know in your MM paradigm the 2nd and 3rd options can't be possible. It's okay. I once viewed things as you do. Now I don't. :ymhug:

I know in your apostate paradigm the first option can't be possible. It's okay. Lots of excommunicated people view things as you do. They used to keep the law of tithing, but now they don't O:-)

Oh crap, sorry obrien #-o


;)

Yup. Only mainstream Mormons are right. They are part of the "true" church and everyone else is wrong. Got it. :-BD

[shadow]

Yup. Only apostates are right. They are a part of the "remnant of the once true church" and everyone else is wrong. Got it.

Oh crap, sorry again Obrien.

[Obrien]

[quote="shadow"]Yup. Only apostates are right. They are a part of the "remnant of the once true church" and everyone else is wrong. Got it.

Oh crap, sorry again Obrien.[/quote]

It's been a long week with very little sleep. I do not follow what you are getting at... (-|

[caddis]

Yup. Only apostates are right. They are a part of the "remnant of the once true church" and everyone else is wrong. Got it.

Oh crap, sorry again Obrien.

You sure have a hard time getting over that "guy that shall not be named" don't you? I think of all the MM's on LDSFF, you take more digs at the "guy that shall not be named", than any other MM on the forum. Kinda funny really. You sure seemed threatened by "guy that shall not be named" even though you will tell me you aren't. =))

For the record. This "apostate" doesn't consider himself to be part of any "remnant" or a reader of the "guy that shall not be named". Last I checked, 12 million Mormons left the "true" church long before the "guy that shall not be named" ever came on the scene.