Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

[Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here], where's that thank button? Good point ^^^, Toni.

User avatar
Desert Roses
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1017

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Desert Roses »

I suspect I'll be flamed for my point of view, but here it is. I don't give a hoot in h*ll what happens to tithing money. It wasn't mine even when I signed the check; it was God's sufferance that allows me the means to live. I consistently receive the blessings. If there is any "misuse" of those sacred funds, it's on the head of those who do wrong. Everything in this world materially is Messiah's and His Father's. They, likewise, are in charge of the organization of the church and each and every penny. If They want it spent differently, they can (and will) take care of that. I wouldn't second guess my Lord and Savior on anything!

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by A Random Phrase »

True, Desert Roses. At least imo.

The money is God's if the person giving it is giving it to God with all their heart. If it is mismanaged, heaven help those who did so. Perhaps we would be best served to look at ourselves and see where we are mismanaging what God has given to us? (Not just money, but time, talents, family, friends, and so forth.)

Some people have a problem, though, with not knowing how it is spent because the Doctrine and Covenants leads us to believe that the members of the LDS church should have a say in how it is spent, and should know where the money goes. As far as I know, God has never given a revelation negating that revelation.

P.S. I did sign the petition a few years ago and don't regret doing so.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by ajax »

From a book I'm reading, The Vatican Exposed:
...scandal has resulted in a precipitous decrease in donations not only by blue-collar Catholic families but also by major philanthropists and Catholic foundations. "The Church should open its books," said Erica P. John, heiress to the Miller brewery fortune and president of a private foundation that contributes $5 million a year to Catholic causes in Milwaukee. "The Church is not a secret society. We're the people of God and we want transparency."
Seems like a reasonable position.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by shadow »

Robert Sinclair wrote:
None but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has twelve and seventy shepherds appointed to such a work.

Must they bake in the lake, is there no hope?

Cry unto the Lord to spare these twelve and seventy shepherds a little bit longer "if" it may be of his will :)
Since even Joseph Smith couldn't help the saints live in Zion, is it your interpretation that every Latter day prophet from Joseph Smith to Gordon Hinckley and all the apostles therein have been thrust to the lake of Hell at their deaths?

User avatar
Elizabeth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11796
Location: East Coast Australia

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Elizabeth »

:D

Robert Sinclair
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11006
Location: Redmond Oregon

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Robert Sinclair »

They come to realize that the opportunity to redeem Zion once their lives have past, is over for them, and passed on to others to awaken and acknowledge and atone, Jesus Christ is there and loves each and everyone of Ephraim dearly as has been written, and he will ransom each and everyone of them as has been written-

"I will ransom them from the grave: I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction."

You will come to know all of these things, that redemption is of Jesus Christ for Ephraim whether from the fiery abyss spoken of by Enoch, or where ever he may place them.

How joyous to be of that generation of Ephraim that finally says,

"What have I to do anymore with idols?"

And finally return to bring forth fruits equal and delightful unto the Lord?

That would be wonderful if in our lifetime, would you agree? ♡ :)

BrotherOfMahonri
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1751

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

A Random Phrase wrote:True, Desert Roses. At least imo.

The money is God's if the person giving it is giving it to God with all their heart. If it is mismanaged, heaven help those who did so. Perhaps we would be best served to look at ourselves and see where we are mismanaging what God has given to us? (Not just money, but time, talents, family, friends, and so forth.)

Some people have a problem, though, with not knowing how it is spent because the Doctrine and Covenants leads us to believe that the members of the LDS church should have a say in how it is spent, and should know where the money goes. As far as I know, God has never given a revelation negating that revelation.

P.S. I did sign the petition a few years ago and don't regret doing so.
I think the problem comes when there is misuse or abuse of the offerings given by those in leadership, and the leadership uses their position as justification.

An example I have had first hand. As a naive missionary, I was asked to be the financial AP as we called them, where I had direct access to our mission's funds and SLC as needed. As the financial AP or secretary to the president, the first North American in such an office after 10 or so years of all Peruvian financial secretaries, I was lead unexpectedly by the spirit to discover where leaders, members, and presidency members were using the mission funds for a decade to live the life they wanted in many varying degrees. A report was made and given to the proper person which held a meeting and for all their protection decided to tell the one individual to get out of town and released him to protect the rest from what SLC might do to them all?

Also, an entire, well known, once very inspired stake presidency and many bishops were excommunicated during my mission for misuse of fast offerings and tithing funds (us missionaries were put in as temporary bishoprics and stake pres members - it was a huge insult to many old time members of that stake and wards - who let us know of the insult and spoke about it in fast and testimony meetings, how they were having to be be lead by babes instead of men of sound understanding because of sin and pride within the church there).

So my point is within the church, money given or tithes given should be sacred, and we are taught that they are sacred, and if it ever got out that it was misused purposefully, excommunications most likley would be issued - the problem however that I discovered as a 20 yr old, was nobody was willing to rat out another due to their leadership positions, ramifications, justifications, etc..

I don't think the Lord cares about the money as much as he does the heart's of his children who are in charge of the monies and the use of such, so when a person, like in the example of my mission, willfully deceives when they have power over the monies, I feel that is when the Lord sets up an adversary so to speak against that person, out of love and teaching them, or provides a witness to help that person confess of the sin or willful deceit (ie. David and Uriah and the prophet Nathan and the little lamb) and it usually ends in excommunication or disfellowship.

User avatar
jockeybox
captain of 100
Posts: 620
Location: McKinney, TX

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by jockeybox »

Desert Roses wrote:I suspect I'll be flamed for my point of view, but here it is. I don't give a hoot in h*ll what happens to tithing money. It wasn't mine even when I signed the check; it was God's sufferance that allows me the means to live. I consistently receive the blessings. If there is any "misuse" of those sacred funds, it's on the head of those who do wrong. Everything in this world materially is Messiah's and His Father's. They, likewise, are in charge of the organization of the church and each and every penny. If They want it spent differently, they can (and will) take care of that. I wouldn't second guess my Lord and Savior on anything!
I don't see anyone second guessing The Lord. His ways are perfect, not mans. Your assumption that a mall for 1.5 billion was the Lord's preference seems like unsafe territory. I wouldn't want to be the one justifying that to the God at a judgement bar! I pray The Lord shows them mercy. I desire the same.

Hypothetically, if you were given the choice to use that money, and you had the scriptures and spirit as your guide, what would you spend it on?

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by A Random Phrase »

BalaamDoctrineLDS wrote:I think the problem comes when there is misuse or abuse of the offerings given by those in leadership, and the leadership uses their position as justification.
Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I think there is a tendency to not question the leaders. Even if it was found out that leaders squandered the money or used it on things that would surprise most people, unless it was a local leader being called on the carpet by a higher leader, not much (if anything) would be done.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

Admittedly it was several years ago, but I was financial clerk in my family ward at BYU. I never saw a hint of impropriety in any of the expenditures at our ward. We made a few house payments, lots of groceries for lots of different families (by that I mean there was never a chronic abuser of offerings in our ward), utility bills paid, medical bills paid, car mechanics occasionally paid etc. The most scandalous thing I saw was when my bishop inadvertently left $13,000+/- in tithing in his suit jacket pocket when he went home from tithing settlement for lunch. He changed jackets and spaced out the early donations. He found them in February. We dutifully reported it to SLC. Every penny was there, complete with undisturbed little envelopes. He was a good man. I suspect most bishops are similarly good men. I get much more concerned when it all goes to SLC. I'm sure there is less feeling of accountability for spending it from a general account in SLC than there is at the local ward level.

However, if it were all accounted for and expended in a totally 100% above board fashion, there would be nothing to hide, ESPECIALLY from the people who make the contributions. Go ahead, Thomas, and order a public disclosure for fall conference, 2015. Be bold and regain the confidence of the sheep.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Thinker »

I like Baalam's idea to pray also.

If the leaders are considered God, it would make sense to not be concerned, but they are not even close to God.
And Oaks has admitted that tithes are not shared with the poor, so the law of tithing is being disobeyed in that way, and in other ways.

Apathy is how evil prevails. Blindly following or spending or saying or doing anything without question - is of the adversary, Imo.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

Many new readers on the forum of late. I'm bumping my gospel hobby. :)

*bump*

KMCopeland
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2279
Location: The American South

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by KMCopeland »

Have they ever explained why they stopped being accountable to tithe-payers in 1951?

If there's nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear.

Secrets breed corruption. The finest, and best of people, if they can count on secrecy, will do things they would never do otherwise. And any fight against transparency, I'm sorry. It just looks real suspicious. I know they don't care how it looks.

Wait ...

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

I have read (Daymon Smith and / or Michael Quinn?) that the church was broke broke - as in not going to make payroll next month broke. Why were we broke? Various reasons, all speculative as far as I know (I am not an expert - this is my very part time hobby horse). They brought in millionaire Eldon Tanner to essentially be church CFO, and he turned things around financially. I'm not sure if the church quit reporting because of potential bankruptcy embarrassment, or later because they were making SO MUCH MONEY. If you'll pardon a small pun, that is just my $.02.

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1562

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by sandman45 »

Done.. and Done

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

Good job Mr. Sandman. The church wants accountability for your tithing habits each year at tithing settlement, it is high time we got some accountability from the leadership.

Bee Prepared
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2536

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Bee Prepared »

Like I said once before, will any of you believe the financial statement? Will you accuse our leaders of lying? Whats your next move, what will you accuse these men of next. Some of you have probably been given church aid, should we ask for an accounting? You want names? I worked at the bishops storehouse, I was amazed at the help given to people in need. I am grateful to know that I would receive help if needed. I am grateful for the blessings I have received by being a member of this church. I would never stand with those whom money causes such rebellion. You are an embarrasment to our church!

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

Wow, I should feel so ashamed...?
I will take being an embarrassment to the church ANYTIME, if I can avoid being an embarrassment to the CHRIST and His GOSPEL.

I could care less who gets church aid. I am so blessed to have not needed it, and I gladly contribute to those in need. I simply believe accountability is important for everyone, including anointed leaders. Is that too hard to understand?

User avatar
caddis
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1196

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by caddis »

Obrien wrote:Wow, I should feel so ashamed...?
I will take being an embarrassment to the church ANYTIME, if I can avoid being an embarrassment to the CHRIST and His GOSPEL.

I could care less who gets church aid. I am so blessed to have not needed it, and I gladly contribute to those in need. I simply believe accountability is important for everyone, including anointed leaders. Is that too hard to understand?
At least you didn't misspell any words. That would make you a double-embarrassment.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by ajax »

Bee Prepared wrote:Like I said once before, will any of you believe the financial statement? Will you accuse our leaders of lying? Whats your next move, what will you accuse these men of next.
Obrien wrote:I could care less who gets church aid. I am so blessed to have not needed it, and I gladly contribute to those in need. I simply believe accountability is important for everyone, including anointed leaders. Is that too hard to understand?
Pretty BASIC stuff.

It has nothing to do with wanting to find nefarious activity, but everything to do with simple honesty, basic accountability, common decency and common consent, how things used to be done in the church and how they should have continued to be done.

Lots of MM's agree. It's a little disconcerting find people so against it. Is leadership there to serve the body or dictate to the body?

Bee Prepared
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2536

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Bee Prepared »

For me I find it accusatory and thats what it is. The remarks that have been made concerning our leaders tell me so. I seriously doubt that the majority of our membership would sign such a petition.

User avatar
caddis
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1196

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by caddis »

Bee Prepared wrote:For me I find it accusatory and thats what it is. The remarks that have been made concerning our leaders tell me so. I seriously doubt that the majority of our membership would sign such a petition.
A majority of the LDS membership vaccinate their kids. Just because the majority is doing something or not doing something, really doesn't mean squat in my opinion.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Obrien »

The majority are also sinners, does that justify your sin?
Majorities are a sucker's game...who cares what the herd is doing?

Bee Prepared
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2536

Re: Go Sign Up (it doesn't hurt)

Post by Bee Prepared »

caddis wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:For me I find it accusatory and thats what it is. The remarks that have been made concerning our leaders tell me so. I seriously doubt that the majority of our membership would sign such a petition.
A majority of the LDS membership vaccinate their kids. Just because the majority is doing something or not doing something, really doe
sn't mean squat in my opinion.
I don't agree with vaccinations and I don't agree with what money does to people.Two different subjects. I don't follow the majority on anything, I follow my promptings and I know that this church is directed by Christ himself. These men are not perfect, I wouldn't want their job! If they choose to release a financial statement, the people who know better than our Prophet and Apostles will just spew more of their wisdom on how the church should be.ran, am I correct? Tithing is a debt owed to the Lord, He will do as he pleases with it. If our leaders make a mistake, He will forgive them or take them out. It"s not anyone elses call. So there caddis, ;)
P.S. Don't get mad at me, I am very opinionated, and I enjoy being your friend.
And ajax, you are the best,

Post Reply