LDS Freedom Forum

EdGoble wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote: Gimme a break. I don't have to be perfect to be a skeptic of Julie Rowe and to warn people about her claim.

I've been trying to give you a break, but you're not listening very well.

EdGoble wrote:No, you have been trying to psycho-analyze me when this isn't about me.

I believe you were the one who made this about you.

But enough of that. If you choose not to believe Sis. Rowe's testimony, that's fine. I'm sure everyone here can respect that. Just please try to be a little more respectful of their right to believe it.

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EdGoble wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:
I believe you were the one who made this about you.

But enough of that. If you choose not to believe Sis. Rowe's testimony, that's fine. I'm sure everyone here can respect that. Just please try to be a little more respectful of their right to believe it.

Nice. Psycho-analyze me, Ad-Hominem-ize me, and then blame it on me and accuse me of making it about me. Perfect. If I were a scientologist, I could go all conspiracy theory on you about psychologists and psychiatrists right about now.

Wouldn't bother me a bit.

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Kinda got me wondering: what are the attributes of a person willing to consider and prayerfully study an experience such as Sis. Rowe's? What makes some willing to listen and ponder while others reject and denounce?

I'm not the first person most people think of when the topic of "open minded folks" comes up in a conversation, but something in her message spoke to me and was confirmed by the Spirit. Have I had a similar experience? No. Do I know others who have? No, not personally anyway. Perhaps more significantly, did I experience fear upon hearing/reading the message? Not at all. I felt a sense of peace and purpose, as though this is part of what my life has been preparing me for, all of life's experiences shaping my character and turning me into the person I need to be to endure the coming trials, both temporally and spiritually. I've read the scriptures and I've "likened" them as much as I could, but I never been able to see the way life was preparing me personally.

I dunno, that's just me.

As I read this thread a few scriptures came to mind.

False Prophets in the Last Days
These are the words of the Lord Himself, warning us regarding our day:

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(3 Nephi 14:15–16)

So, if we are going to judge Julie Rowe, lets use a standard provided by the Lord. If we look at this thread as an example, what do we see? Is anyone breaking covenants? Is anyone advocating something which competes with the gospel? Is anyone denigrating church leaders? No? Why not?

I know that Julie spoke words something similar to these: "Following the direction of the apostles and prophets will become a matter of life or death." And, "we need to fine tune how the Spirit speaks to us." I believe what she meant by this statement was that we need to become very much in tune with the Spirit.

So, if someone decided to follow her instructions, they would:
1. Get their food storage in now.
2. Become more and more in tune with the Spirit.
3. Follow the direction of the prophets and apostles.

Figs or thistles?

True Prophets Among Us
On the subject of prophets that are not among the 15 we sustain, we should all be aware that the Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that having many prophets, even exceedingly many, is a good thing:

And there were exceedingly many prophets among us.
(Enos 1:22)

Three different generations among the Jaredites:

And there came also in the days of Com many prophets, and prophesied of the destruction of that great people except they should repent, and turn unto the Lord, and forsake their murders and wickedness.
?(Ether 11:1)

And it came to pass that in the days of Ethem there came many prophets, and prophesied again unto the people; yea, they did prophesy that the Lord would utterly destroy them from off the face of the earth except they repented of their iniquities.
(Ether 11:12)

20 And in the days of Coriantor there also came many prophets, and prophesied of great and marvelous things, and cried repentance unto the people, and except they should repent the Lord God would execute judgment against them to their utter destruction;
21 And that the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the land, by his power, after the manner by which he brought their fathers.
(Ether 11:20–21)

Perhaps Moses said it best:

And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
(Numbers 11:29)

Had he been granted his wish there would have been over a one million prophets in his day.

What Can They Prophesy About?
Samuel the Lamanite makes it perfectly clear:

3 But behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, that he should return again, and prophesy unto the people whatsoever things should come into his heart.
4 And it came to pass that they would not suffer that he should enter into the city; therefore he went and got upon the wall thereof, and stretched forth his hand and cried with a loud voice, and prophesied unto the people whatsoever things the Lord put into his heart.
5 And he said unto them: Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the words of the Lord which he doth put into my heart; and behold he hath put it into my heart to say unto this people that the sword of justice hangeth over this people; and four hundred years pass not away save the sword of justice falleth upon this people.
(Helaman 13:3–5)

Someone with the gift of prophecy came up the apostle Paul and warned him of what awaited him.

3 Now when we had discovered Cyprus, we left it on the left hand, and sailed into Syria, and landed at Tyre: for there the ship was to unlade her burden.
4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
(Acts 21:3–4)

From these verses it is clear that one with the gift of prophecy can prophesy of whatever the Lord puts into their heart. There are limits on revelation, not on the gift of prophecy. I will never receive revelation for my bishop, but if the Lord put it into my heart to prophesy about the ward, I could.


Missionaries being called home.
There are some verses regarding this in 3 Nephi. At some point, the Lord will take his gospel from among the unbelieving gentiles in the USA, then the USA is destroyed and given to a remnant of the Book of Mormon people, in this case identified as the Native Americans, then we help them build Zion. See 3 Nephi 16, 20 and 21.


Sharing dreams or visions.
The Book of Mormon begins with Lehi sharing his experiences. Had Joseph not shared his experience in the grove, where would all of us be today? It is clear that if someone receives an experience from the Lord they do not have to be sustained as a prophet, seer and revelator to receive permission to share it, indeed they might be commanded to share it.
***

In conclusion, I don't see anything but good coming from Julie's book or her speeches, and I haven't read or heard anything which contradicts, in any way, what the Lord has directed us to do through the prophets or the scriptures.

Thanks, Gideon, for a very well thought out post. I wanted to do that but my lunch time was pretty much over by the end of that exchange.

Only thing I'd add is that there is a difference between Prophet and prophet. Big P, little p. One holds all keys to the kingdom, other holds testimony of Jesus. Julie never really claims to be either, although what she witnessed was clearly a vision of things to come. My patriarchal blessing tells me I have the Spirit of Prophecy. Does that mean I guide the church? Heck no. But I can guide my family and receive inspiration as the Lord sees fit. In Julie's case, she makes it quite clear that most of what she saw pertains to her own family and situation and is not specific to others' cases. It's definitely not a directive for the church.

I know you didn't intend your statement that way, just wanted to clarify in case other skeptics might misconstrue your explanation, which I thought was beautifully crafted.

Thanks again!

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EdGoble wrote: Let me ask a question. When you have a perfect knowledge of what you have been asked and under covenant to be loyal to, why do you believe you need the spirit to testify of something like this? What makes you open-minded to something so obviously contradictory to the established order?

What makes you believe that the Spirit is testifying of her? Is that truly the case? Have you broken it down into more basic questions and ponderings, such as, could it be aspects of her message that are true? Could it be that the Spirit is testifying of something that she says that is true about the future? Did she repeat this from something else that was out there that actually is true? Did you really ask a specific question to the Lord, saying, is she really, truly called upon and given a spiritual mission to say what she is saying? I would say that is not likely, and you just have a general feeling about something about it. And you have not broken it down in a more detailed pondering and praying process. What is it about it that leads you to want to believe in her? Why are you not questioning her motives? People that make claims do not deserve the benefit of the doubt at first. They deserve be assumed to be false until the spirit speaks very clearly to the contrary, after a very long pondering process and a very long process of temple attendance and prayer and fasting, probably months in the making. You are approaching this entirely backwards, in my opinion. There are too many people like this to just approach it from the point of view that she is likely to be telling the truth. Rather, you ought to enumerate in your mind what her motives are likely to be if she is not telling the truth, and let those things weigh heavily upon your pondering process. There is too much to lose, too much at stake to give someone like this with this kind of claim the benefit of the doubt at first.

How are you so sure that I didn't approach her story in EXACTLY the way you are prescribing? I read about her in an email overview that was sent to me by my ward prep specialist who listened to her radio interview. I was intrigued, slightly doubtful, but wanted to hear it for myself in order to gain a better understanding of what she was saying and the context in which her message was being delivered. I came away with a testimony of it and then later read the book, further confirming my testimony of it.

Can you claim to have done the same?

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EdGoble wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:How are you so sure that I didn't approach her story in EXACTLY the way you are prescribing? I read about her in an email overview that was sent to me by my ward prep specialist who listened to her radio interview. I was intrigued, slightly doubtful, but wanted to hear it for myself in order to gain a better understanding of what she was saying and the context in which her message was being delivered. I came away with a testimony of it and then later read the book, further confirming my testimony of it.

Can you claim to have done the same?

Because I short cut it with skepticism because I already have a sense from the Spirit of what is contrary to the established order, so NO, I don't give it the time of day. So get off your high horse because NO, you did NOT. I dead challenge you right now and call you a LIAR that you did not go through MONTHS of TEMPLE ATTENDANCE, FASTING AND PRAYER ABOUT JULIE ROWE. I THROW DOWN THE GAUNTLET RIGHT NOW AND SAY THAT YOU DID NOT. Now you actually do have me angry, so now I am leaving.

Dude, chill. Really. Do you think it really takes months to know right from wrong? How about a lifetime of temple attendance, fasting and prayer? I think one would know when they are capable of heeding the voice of the Spirit. Do I need to go to the temple and fast every time I hear a testimony in sacrament meeting to know if the speaker is sincere and speaking by the Spirit?

You haven't studied it out, in fact you refuse to. Then you call people liars and get angry. Something tells me you're not in a place to feel the Spirit, nor are you willing to. That's a good way not to know the truth.

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EdGoble wrote: I say in the case of people like this, YES. Or you will be DECEIVED BY "GOOD FEELINGS." I ought to know. I was DECEIVED AT FIRST BY TERRILL DALTON BECAUSE OF GOOD FEELINGS. Only after a LONG process did it become clear that those good feelings were a FALSE SPIRIT, masquerading as the Holy Ghost. I speak to you from EXPERIENCE of having been DECEIVED BY A FALSE PROPHET, and being deceived by a FALSE HOLY GHOST.

Ok, Ed, you've got me curious now. What did Mr. Dalton do to deceive you and how did your practices change from those preached by the Brethren? In what way did he set himself up as a prophet? I must confess I've never heard of the guy.

iWriteStuff wrote:

EdGoble wrote: I say in the case of people like this, YES. Or you will be DECEIVED BY "GOOD FEELINGS." I ought to know. I was DECEIVED AT FIRST BY TERRILL DALTON BECAUSE OF GOOD FEELINGS. Only after a LONG process did it become clear that those good feelings were a FALSE SPIRIT, masquerading as the Holy Ghost. I speak to you from EXPERIENCE of having been DECEIVED BY A FALSE PROPHET, and being deceived by a FALSE HOLY GHOST.

Ok, Ed, you've got me curious now. What did Mr. Dalton do to deceive you and how did your practices change from those preached by the Brethren? In what way did he set himself up as a prophet? I must confess I've never heard of the guy.

Please make a new discussion. /mod

coachmarc wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:

EdGoble wrote: I say in the case of people like this, YES. Or you will be DECEIVED BY "GOOD FEELINGS." I ought to know. I was DECEIVED AT FIRST BY TERRILL DALTON BECAUSE OF GOOD FEELINGS. Only after a LONG process did it become clear that those good feelings were a FALSE SPIRIT, masquerading as the Holy Ghost. I speak to you from EXPERIENCE of having been DECEIVED BY A FALSE PROPHET, and being deceived by a FALSE HOLY GHOST.

Ok, Ed, you've got me curious now. What did Mr. Dalton do to deceive you and how did your practices change from those preached by the Brethren? In what way did he set himself up as a prophet? I must confess I've never heard of the guy.

Please make a new discussion. /mod

I'm down with that. Can I second the motion?

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EdGoble wrote: I say in the case of people like this, YES. Or you will be DECEIVED BY "GOOD FEELINGS." I ought to know. I was DECEIVED AT FIRST BY TERRILL DALTON BECAUSE OF GOOD FEELINGS. Only after a LONG process did it become clear that those good feelings were a FALSE SPIRIT, masquerading as the Holy Ghost. I speak to you from EXPERIENCE of having been DECEIVED BY A FALSE PROPHET, and being deceived by a FALSE HOLY GHOST.

Ok, Ed, you've got me curious now. What did Mr. Dalton do to deceive you and how did your practices change from those preached by the Brethren? In what way did he set himself up as a prophet? I must confess I've never heard of the guy.


I'm down with that. Can I second the motion?

Me 3, and lets compare and contrast, then Ed will have to come out of his bunker.

njb

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EdGoble wrote:Actually, there is nothing much more to be said than to read through those articles. I have said everything I need to say.

Uh, wow. Ok, well let me just start with the fact that this is night and day different from Sis. Rowe. She doesn't run around saying she's the Holy Ghost, start a sect, or claim that it's God's will that.... I don't need to go there. Totally, totally not the same.

I'm sorry you got burned so badly, really I am. I don't know how you were or weren't involved personally, but this scum bag clearly had nothing to do with God, but a great deal of ability at convincing people he did.

Perhaps Sis. Rowe's message was not intended for you. You know who you are, who to follow, and what the Lord would have you do. That's not an easy thing to know, or an easy path to walk, but it sounds like you're there. And that's awesome.

The message, for me, was not intended to change who I am but to reinforce my testimony in the church, in God, and in the Spirit. That's all it did. It didn't change my loyalties or behavior. For that reason and others, I believe her. But again, it's ok if you don't. Perhaps that's not the path that will work for you. Which is fine. God works through many means to prepare us and bring us back to His presence.

Again, wow. That guy was way messed up.

Ed has safely descended back down into his bunker.

;)

njb

wow. I am being compared to that guy? huh. All I can say at the moment is wow.

I've been accused of a lot of things the past few months, but this one might just top the others. I find it interesting that there are people out there who know little to nothing about me, have never met me, talked to me or even attempted to read my book themselves, yet they are quick to judge and are often bent on striking out and attacking me for reasons I cannot seem to understand. My heart goes out to them. I am not angry, offended or upset about the negative and hurtful things people have said or will say - but I am saddened when I see that there are so many who seem to struggle to understand even some of the most basic gospel principles and the baptismal covenants we each make as members of the Lord's church. Each of us has a duty and obligation to spread truth, light and knowledge we have been given. Each of us has a responsibility to stand in Holy Places and be counted worthy. Each of us has a responsibility to share the gospel message, to help one another prepare and strengthen ourselves and our families.

Each of us have a responsibility to warn our neighbor. Each of us has a responsibility to testify and witness. I am no different. I have been asked to warn my neighbor, to testify and to witness of the truths that I know. I have been asked to share my experiences and to testify of God's Eternal Plan of Happiness.

As others have pointed out - I have never, nor will I ever seek a following of any kind. I have not, nor will I ever denounce the leaders of our church. I have not, nor will I ever attempt to dissuade anyone from following our ordained Prophets and Apostles. I have not acted in any manner contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to the principles and ordinances of the Gospel. I have not written, or shared anything that is not in keeping with the Lord's ways.

I have not overstepped the bounds the Lord has given me. I do not seek worldly gain. In fact, for those who know me well, they know that I care very little for the things of this world. My sincere desire is to simply serve the Lord and help in any way I can to build His kingdom and prepare his army. My hope and prayer is that my own pain and suffering will not be in vain and that through sharing some of my experiences, I can help others.

I am in good standing in the church. I hold a current and honest temple recommend. Each of my bishops and stake presidents since 2004 have known and currently know about me and my experiences and have read my book. They believe me and they know me.

I am grateful to those who have come to my defense on this website and elsewhere. Thank you. I appreciate your kindness in my behalf and although I have not been able to personally thank many of you, I hope you will somehow come to know how much your messages have helped me, strengthened me and encouraged me to press forward despite the opposition.

I know that many of you have or will yet face some of your own opposition and persecution because you are trying to testify of the truths you know. Hang in there! I promise you it is well worth the sacrifice. We are on the winning team. The battle is raging and the forces of opposition are increasing, but it is all for our good. Just preparing us for what lies ahead and for that I am grateful.

The Lord is over all. He has a plan, and it is a beautiful one.

jkrowe wrote:wow. I am being compared to that guy? huh. All I can say at the moment is wow.

I've been accused of a lot of things the past few months, but this one might just top the others. I find it interesting that there are people out there who know little to nothing about me, have never met me, talked to me or even attempted to read my book themselves, yet they are quick to judge and are often bent on striking out and attacking me for reasons I cannot seem to understand. My heart goes out to them. I am not angry, offended or upset about the negative and hurtful things people have said or will say - but I am saddened when I see that there are so many who seem to struggle to understand even some of the most basic gospel principles and the baptismal covenants we each make as members of the Lord's church. Each of us has a duty and obligation to spread truth, light and knowledge we have been given. Each of us has a responsibility to stand in Holy Places and be counted worthy. Each of us has a responsibility to share the gospel message, to help one another prepare and strengthen ourselves and our families.

Each of us have a responsibility to warn our neighbor. Each of us has a responsibility to testify and witness. I am no different. I have been asked to warn my neighbor, to testify and to witness of the truths that I know. I have been asked to share my experiences and to testify of God's Eternal Plan of Happiness.

As others have pointed out - I have never, nor will I ever seek a following of any kind. I have not, nor will I ever denounce the leaders of our church. I have not, nor will I ever attempt to dissuade anyone from following our ordained Prophets and Apostles. I have not acted in any manner contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to the principles and ordinances of the Gospel. I have not written, or shared anything that is not in keeping with the Lord's ways.

I have not overstepped the bounds the Lord has given me. I do not seek worldly gain. In fact, for those who know me well, they know that I care very little for the things of this world. My sincere desire is to simply serve the Lord and help in any way I can to build His kingdom and prepare his army. My hope and prayer is that my own pain and suffering will not be in vain and that through sharing some of my experiences, I can help others.

I am in good standing in the church. I hold a current and honest temple recommend. Each of my bishops and stake presidents since 2004 have known and currently know about me and my experiences and have read my book. They believe me and they know me.

I am grateful to those who have come to my defense on this website and elsewhere. Thank you. I appreciate your kindness in my behalf and although I have not been able to personally thank many of you, I hope you will somehow come to know how much your messages have helped me, strengthened me and encouraged me to press forward despite the opposition.

I know that many of you have or will yet face some of your own opposition and persecution because you are trying to testify of the truths you know. Hang in there! I promise you it is well worth the sacrifice. We are on the winning team. The battle is raging and the forces of opposition are increasing, but it is all for our good. Just preparing us for what lies ahead and for that I am grateful.

The Lord is over all. He has a plan, and it is a beautiful one.

Julie, thanks for the message you are spreading. Do not be troubled by the fools. They'll come around eventually. Arguing with them on this site is an endless game of whack-a-mole.

I want you to know that your book has affected a lot of people positively and deeply, confirming the urgent impressions we have felt to prepare for something huge--and you have defined that huge thing. What a comfort. Thank you for saying the things that the Brethren probably cannot say, else they panic the global church. Thank you for being worthy to have received your gift. And thank you for having the courage to stick your neck out and share it. The way you carry yourself testifies that your experience is genuine.

SamFisher wrote: Julie, thanks for the message you are spreading. Do not be troubled by the fools. They'll come around eventually. Arguing with them on this site is an endless game of whack-a-mole.

Sam,

I understand what you are saying here, but please do not call anyone a fool or a mole. There are many people out there who have been burned by their past decisions (including who to trust), and for that reason, are understandably extra careful and skeptical going forward. Those people need our compassion and prayers more than anything, not digs at the end of a debate.

I can personally understand the mindset of "the only person in this world I can trust anymore is the prophet." It's terrible that the actions of active, card-carrying members of the church can drive others into that view, but sadly that's life in the 20th century.

What it boils down to is: by their fruits ye shall know them; he with ears to hear, let him hear; and after you have been warned, warn your neighbor.

Jared

Thank you both for your posts.

Thank you for your thoughtful feedback. I am very happy to hear the message has been and is of benefit to others.

I honestly do not find fault with anyone who is skeptical of me or my message. I have been through some very difficult trials myself, and I have been burned and betrayed by more than a few who I thought I could trust. The most painful experiences I have had in my life regarding this topic came as a result of trusting those close to me who were friends, family members, and yes - many were members of the church. I struggled for a long time trying to make sense of things and trying to come to terms with it all, so I do know first-hand what it feels like to be distrusting of others because of the betrayals I have experienced. I will admit that in the past, I even had difficulty in trusting the Lord because I couldn't understand how or why he would allow such things to happen to me. I have always believed in the Plan of Salvation, the Plan of Happiness - but because of some of the experiences I have had, I didn't always know or understand and LIKE the Lord's Plan for me. I sometimes fought against it and I have come to learn that I did this because I was hurting and afraid. I came to know and understand much of what I talk about in my books not just in spite of my trials of betrayal and trust issues, but in some cases, because of them.

Had I not been hurting emotionally, mentally, and spiritually the way I was - perhaps I would not have worked so diligently to overcome my pain and anguish and perhaps I would not have begged the Lord for His tender mercies and miracles to heal my soul and give me increased light, knowledge and understanding of His plan for me. Had I not experienced these things, I may not have asked the Lord to give me the gift of charity. Prior to my experience, in my pleading for answers, understanding and healing, I literally asked the Lord to give me some very specific answers in some very specific ways. I will not go into that any further because that is too personal for me to share, but I will say that I know the Lord does hear and answer our prayers. If and when we are ready to receive the answers, the Lord does and will answer our specific requests at the right time, in the right way, and in the manner He knows is best for us. Only He knows when and how and what that is, and it is up to us to put our faith and trust in Him so those answers can come.

Sometimes we are just not in the right frame of mind, body, or spirit to be in a position to accept certain answers, and that is okay. It doesn't make us bad people. I don't think it means we are foolish. I think it means we are human and we are learning. We learn line upon line, precept upon precept, and the Lord knows what is best for us in our individual circumstances. He will not tell us more than we need to know, at any given time and in any given circumstance. He will only tell us what we need to know, when we need to know it, how we need to know it - as we are ready to receive it for our higher good.

It is quite possible that there are many who will read my words, or the words of any other person and the message will not resonate because it is not part of God's plan for them for whatever reason. I trust the Lord on this and I have total peace that those who do need to hear will hear - whether that message comes through me or another messenger the Lord has provided for us. For those who have read my words or for those who will yet read my words - my hope is that through sharing a portion of my experience, people will benefit in some way. No matter what happens, I know I was supposed to write these books and share my story. Other peoples choices and actions do not change that for me. What I know is that I have already personally greatly benefited from sharing my story because my own faith, testimony and knowledge has been strengthened. I have learned so much about myself and about the Lord's Plan for me and others over the past few months alone, and for this I am eternally grateful. I wouldn't change a thing.

There are some things I have been through that I would not wish on my worst enemy, and I for sure wouldn't want to go through them again - but the benefits far outweigh the negatives. The blessings far outweigh the opposition and for this reason alone I know without a doubt that it is worth it.

My hope is that each of us is able to find peace and comfort in the Lord's Plan for us. My hope is that each of us is able to come to terms with and accept the Plan the Lord has provided us, and that in so doing, we can find rest in the Lord. That is the only way to true happiness and joy. There is no other way, and the sooner we come to this realization and understanding and acceptance, the better off we are.

I am waiting for her second book. ;)