LDS Freedom Forum

coachmarc wrote:
I love Denver Snuffer, too, and I do believe his words.

I honestly and truly used to be a Snufferite. I used to hang at his every word, and I wanted to hang out with him as well.

As a former Snufferite, I still try to carry with me all the good and all the truth that Denver Snuffer taught me.

As a Disciple of Christ, I choose to leave behind me any of the bad or the falsehoods that Denver Snuffer might have taught me.

I try to apply the same principle to everyone that I encounter.

That's how I personally choose to sift things.

Thomas wrote:

swiftbrook wrote:Huh?? I'm super confused now. When I listened to the talk I thought he was talking about leaders having the keys and members being the keyholes....cuz members have to use the leaders and get permission to receive ordinances authorized by the keys they hold.

Are you saying that Denver used keyhole like a-hole, or what am I missing?

I was there and that is what I heard.

Even though he seemed a little pissed off when he said it, this was my take-away, also.

This has been quite a thread. A lot of interesting as well as insightful things said. I see this thread as part of the struggle to accept and be accepted - as living in Zion requires. I hope we can do it.

BagleyDarwin wrote:

coachmarc wrote:
I love Denver Snuffer, too, and I do believe his words.

I honestly and truly used to be a Snufferite. I used to hang at his every word, and I wanted to hang out with him as well.

As a former Snufferite, I still try to carry with me all the good and all the truth that Denver Snuffer taught me.

As a Disciple of Christ, I choose to leave behind me any of the bad or the falsehoods that Denver Snuffer might have taught me.

I try to apply the same principle to everyone that I encounter.

That's how I personally choose to sift things.

Just to reiterate, while I believe his testimony and witness of the Second Comforter and a number of things, which Joseph Smith taught anyway, and which I have read in the BoM, D&C, and frankly, our entire canon of scripture many times, including and especially the LoF, I do not follow the man. Never have. I have, however, received his words and believe his testimony. Like you, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. Truth cuts its own way and I am thankful for him and for others like Gileadi, Skousen, and Nibley. There are prophets and then there are scholars. And, well, commentators. I don't pay much mind to commentators, but some scholars like Gileadi and Nibley have shared some profound insight, which I have benefited from immensely. I would rather learn from a prophet or a true messenger, though. Ironically, without them, scholars and commentators have no material.

BagleyDarwin wrote:

coachmarc wrote:
I love Denver Snuffer, too, and I do believe his words.

I honestly and truly used to be a Snufferite. I used to hang at his every word, and I wanted to hang out with him as well.
.

How sad that you behaved and thought this way; glad you got over that. I'm grateful I know very few people who enjoy Duster's writings that behave and think the way you describe. I do however know thousands and thousands of LDS who think and behave this way with regard to the 15. Even being in Monson's ward where you would think people would be used to seeing him, people still line up to shake his hand (again) and then post about it on Facebook - as they just met their favorite celebrity.

BagleyDarwin wrote:

coachmarc wrote:
I love Denver Snuffer, too, and I do believe his words.

I honestly and truly used to be a Snufferite. I used to hang at his every word, and I wanted to hang out with him as well.

As a former Snufferite, I still try to carry with me all the good and all the truth that Denver Snuffer taught me.

As a Disciple of Christ, I choose to leave behind me any of the bad or the falsehoods that Denver Snuffer might have taught me.

I try to apply the same principle to everyone that I encounter.

That's how I personally choose to sift things.

]]

Thanks!!!

BagleyDarwin wrote:
I honestly and truly used to be a Snufferite. I used to hang at his every word, and I wanted to hang out with him as well.

As a former Snufferite, I still try to carry with me all the good and all the truth that Denver Snuffer taught me.

As a Disciple of Christ, I choose to leave behind me any of the bad or the falsehoods that Denver Snuffer might have taught me.

I try to apply the same principle to everyone that I encounter.

That's how I personally choose to sift things.

After posting this and after prayer, I had an insightful revelation.

I realized that for the past two or three decades, I have been instinctively applying the exact same principle to the LDS General Authorities, their writings and their words. I never knew that about me before today.

I try to carry, remember, and incorporate into my life ALL of the good things, wholesome things, uplifting things, productive things, true things, and inspirational things that the LDS General Authorities have taught me.

At the same time, I try to discard or ignore all of the bad things, discouraging things, degrading things, unproductive things, false things, guilt-ridden, and depressing things that the LDS General Authorities might have taught me over the years.

Even when it comes to the LDS General Authorities, this is how I personally choose to sift things or filter things.

The LDS General Authorities are not perfect either. Therefore, I choose to focus on everything that they get right while at the same time trying to ignore the stuff that feels wrong.

I have realized, too, that I have often applied the same principle to my Bishops, my Relief Society Presidents, my Elders Quorum Presidents, and my High Priest Group Leaders. I focus my attention on all the good that they do rather than any of the mistakes that they might make.

I guess it bothers me whenever I see a man being worshiped by fanatical followers, even if that man happens to be a prophet of God at the time.

Jules wrote: Even being in Monson's ward where you would think people would be used to seeing him, people still line up to shake his hand (again) and then post about it on Facebook - as they just met their favorite celebrity.

--

I personally dislike it whenever I see a man's followers worshiping him, either in person or in print. It turns me off as well.

Around 1980, Thomas S. Monson came out to our mission in Finland. He gave an apostolic blessing on the land and the mission.

I never felt a strong or compelling need to meet the man or shake his hand, and I was never invited to do so either.

There is a picture out there in the world with Thomas S. Monson in the picture and I'm in the picture too. They had all of the missionaries in the mission gather together and have our collective picture taken with Thomas S. Monson. He's on one side of the room, and I'm on the other side of the room in the picture. I think that's as close as I ever got to the man.

I wasn't one of the high-producers at the time, so I think that was part of the reason why I was not one of the missionaries selected to meet him, nor did I make any effort to actually do so.

Back in the mid-1980's, I was attending LDS Business College. They would periodically have a devotional where one of the Apostles would come and speak. I was having some severe problems at the time, and I had some serious questions at the time.

One of the times for one of the devotionals, M. Russell Ballard was the Apostle who was assigned to come and speak to us.

He had prepared a speech. As he got up to give his speech, he paused, said that he had gotten an impression that he needed to speak about something else, put his speech aside, and began to speak directly to me and my problems and concerns.

I was the person in the audience that the Lord had instructed him to talk to. There were a hundred of us there, and his talk was only to the one lost sheep. I was that sheep. I know it. He addressed every one of my concerns and issues in his talk.

I never got to meet him, shake his hand, or thank him. I never told him that I was the one for which he had to abandon his nicely prepared speech. I have never met the man, but he was talking directly to me that day.

That was an interesting experience. That was my first strong confirmation that these men really are Prophets of God. I'm not going to abandon them, because it is clear to me that the Lord and the Holy Ghost refuse to abandon them.

BagleyDarwin wrote: I never got to meet him, shake his hand, or thank him. I never told him that I was the one for which he had to abandon his nicely prepared speech. I have never met the man, but he was talking directly to me that day.

That was an interesting experience. That was my first strong confirmation that these men really are Prophets of God. I'm not going to abandon them, because it is clear to me that the Lord and the Holy Ghost refuse to abandon them.

Not to be annoying...because that's a good story. (It's wonderful when that type of thing happens)

But speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost is not the definition of prophet. I absolutely believe those men are guided at times by the Holy Ghost. Does that mean it's all the time? No, we're all mortal and that will not ever be the case. But they receive revelation. And so do we. Anybody under the influence of the Holy Ghost could have done that, prophet or not. I'm glad to hear stories like that though, when people are willing to be in-tune enough to just "go with the flow" of what the spirit would like.

In my own life, the title and role of prophet has NOT been filled only by Apostles.

It is abundantly clear and evident to me that my former High Priest Group leader was directly called by God to come to my aide, answer my questions, help me to overcome many of my handicaps, help me to feel welcome and wanted in the quorum, and help me to receive the revelation from God that I couldn't get for myself at the time. That man was a prophet of God in every sense of the word, in my own life.

My current LDS Bishop has also been a prophet of God in my life. That man has the annoying habit of NEVER giving me what I want or desire. But, when it comes to what I really need, that has been a whole other story.

Do I worship any of these men? No. I can't even bring myself to worship God. I have never been able to comprehend or understand hero worship. I was selected to meet a Major League Baseball player. I couldn't see what the big deal was all about. I can't think of any hollywood actor, basketball player, or celebrity that I have ever wanted to meet. I just don't worship them the same way that other people seem to do. I really can't think of any LDS General Authority that I want to meet either. I just don't roll that way, I guess.

BagleyDarwin wrote:I have never been able to comprehend or understand hero worship. I was selected to meet a Major League Baseball player. I couldn't see what the big deal was all about. I can't think of any hollywood actor, basketball player, or celebrity that I have ever wanted to meet. I just don't worship them the same way that other people seem to do. I really can't think of any LDS General Authority that I want to meet either. I just don't roll that way, I guess.

That's something we definitely have in common!

DPeterson wrote:

BagleyDarwin wrote:I have never been able to comprehend or understand hero worship. I was selected to meet a Major League Baseball player. I couldn't see what the big deal was all about. I can't think of any hollywood actor, basketball player, or celebrity that I have ever wanted to meet. I just don't worship them the same way that other people seem to do. I really can't think of any LDS General Authority that I want to meet either. I just don't roll that way, I guess.

That's something we definitely have in common!

Same here. I have met famous people before...and so what..."nice to meet you" and move on. Stopped going to concerts when a teen/young adult because of all the screaming. I thought (silly me) you went to concerts to listen to the music, but no, it's to watch all the fans screaming and go home without your hearing. B-)

BagleyDarwin, I am impressed with your sincerity and your desire to search for truth. My prayers go with you on your journey. May we all refused to worship or adulate any man.

BagleyDarwin wrote:Back in the mid-1980's, I was attending LDS Business College. They would periodically have a devotional where one of the Apostles would come and speak. I was having some severe problems at the time, and I had some serious questions at the time.

One of the times for one of the devotionals, M. Russell Ballard was the Apostle who was assigned to come and speak to us.

He had prepared a speech. As he got up to give his speech, he paused, said that he had gotten an impression that he needed to speak about something else, put his speech aside, and began to speak directly to me and my problems and concerns.

I was the person in the audience that the Lord had instructed him to talk to. There were a hundred of us there, and his talk was only to the one lost sheep. I was that sheep. I know it. He addressed every one of my concerns and issues in his talk.

I never got to meet him, shake his hand, or thank him. I never told him that I was the one for which he had to abandon his nicely prepared speech. I have never met the man, but he was talking directly to me that day.

That was an interesting experience. That was my first strong confirmation that these men really are Prophets of God. I'm not going to abandon them, because it is clear to me that the Lord and the Holy Ghost refuse to abandon them.

BUT.... could any person be inspired to do so if they were living as the apostles were living? I'm not downplaying a sacred experience, but inviting you to not close off all truth in the matter. I have had that happen with a loving old man in our ward as a teenager. Set aside his prepared talk (he was well known for his High Priest talks) and speak to me directly...

Absolutely, M. Russel Ballard was inspired in your behalf. But so are many other non-apostles and prophets, who do the exact same thing, by the exact same power of heeding the Holy Spirit...

So no, we shouldn't discredit anyone who is following the spirit. What I am seeking for and personally having a struggle with is the additional fruits of true and living, Called of God from on High, prophets and apostles, not just the same sweet guidance of the Holy Spirit, we all can have.

I explain this in more detail in a post...
http://voiceofanearthquake.blogspot.com ... lland.html

any non-mocking feedback on this?

I'm a nobody, so are each of us, so is Elder Ballard. We all have right to the Holy Spirit's influence, I too have been the person in Elder Ballard was for you. So I guess that makes me a prophet? No. absurd! According to how we live our lives, the Holy Spirit can influence us. What I am seeking is the further fruits (prophecy, revelation, etc.). I love these men no more than I love the man who spoke to me directly, the man who without invoking the priesthood power in my youth, healed me by the touch of his hand - I perceived virtue came from him into me, and healed me, or the woman who touched my back as a struggling teenager and I filled with the love of God from the virtue coming from herself.

These were lay members, I've also had the experience with a non-member who lived a life like Elder Ballard might do so. So what I'm saying has NOTHING to do with bashing the beloved brethren, but inviting you to realize you have the same power they have if you live a life like they do and you don't have to be called of God until he calls you (that's what he told Hyrum - you are not called until he calls you).

Time and time again Pres Monson has born witness of the divinity of Christ and the need to follow the Spirit in our lives. If a person truly "followed" the prophet's teachings, they would seek to have the Spirit in their lives and would likewise come to a knowledge of the divinity of Christ. That is after all what a prophet does, point people to Christ. This is not hero worship or idolizing of a man, it is learning from one who knows and applying the same truths in their own lives.

Conversely, if a person does not seek the guidance of the Spirit and a testimony of their own then obviously they are not "following" the prophet's teaching. No matter what they say about believing Pres Monson to be a prophet, they in reality don't believe it otherwise they would live his counsel and as such come unto Christ.

Perhaps in all of the scriptures the most repeated pattern is this: rejection of prophets leads to destruction. Satan knows this and dedicates a great amount of his resources to that end. With those outside the Church its relatively easy, just keep them in ignorance and their minds focused on worldly pursuits. But with those in the Chruch, it requires a little more leg work on his part.

Satan knows that the easiest way to discredit a message is to discredit the messenger. Get the people to question his motives, his qualifications, or anything else other than the message, and the message will fall on deaf ears.

I see this in abundance on this forum. Discussion about everything they don't agree with about Pres Monson but never the message.

If destruction is in our future, which we know by prophecy it is, I don't see the catalyst being any different than it always has been. Rejection of the prophet.

laronius wrote:I see this in abundance on this forum. Discussion about everything they don't agree with about Pres Monson but never the message.

I definitely agree that we need to get rid of the negativity on the forum.

BalaamDoctrineLDS wrote:BUT.... could any person be inspired to do so if they were living as the apostles were living? ... Absolutely, M. Russel Ballard was inspired in your behalf. But so are many other non-apostles and prophets, who do the exact same thing, by the exact same power of heeding the Holy Spirit... So no, we shouldn't discredit anyone who is following the spirit. What I am seeking for and personally having a struggle with is the additional fruits of true and living, Called of God from on High, prophets and apostles, not just the same sweet guidance of the Holy Spirit, we all can have. ... We all have right to the Holy Spirit's influence, I too have been the person in Elder Ballard was for you. So I guess that makes me a prophet? ...

Exactly. We should all be prophets. We all have that possibility. We should all seek inspiration from the Lord and sometimes that will result in being inspired to deliver a message to those around us, to those within our sphere of influence.

BrianM wrote:

laronius wrote:I see this in abundance on this forum. Discussion about everything they don't agree with about Pres Monson but never the message.

I definitely agree that we need to get rid of the negativity on the forum.

I 100% agree, as long as it cuts both ways. ;)

Obrien wrote:

BrianM wrote:

laronius wrote:I see this in abundance on this forum. Discussion about everything they don't agree with about Pres Monson but never the message.

I definitely agree that we need to get rid of the negativity on the forum.

I 100% agree, as long as it cuts both ways. ;)

For sure.

Wow - seeing both our avatars on a single page, juxtaposed as they are, is striking. It's almost like bodyguards surrounding the prophet...

Obrien wrote:Wow - seeing both our avatars on a single page, juxtaposed as they are, is striking. It's almost like bodyguards surrounding the prophet...

hey, you're right..

wait a minute, which guy is the evil warlord in the picture above?? your confusing me....;)

BrianM or whoever created that picture: It is very offensive.

If I get kicked off of here----so be it.

believer wrote:BrianM or whoever created that picture: It is very offensive.

If I get kicked off of here----so be it.

oh for petes sake, lighten up.

Brian, it seems there are people that want to throw you out of your own living room. if you're forced to leave ( =)) ) please forward the deed to your living room with a covenant that can't be broken to Robert. he'll know what to do with it.