LDS Freedom Forum

I am going to come right out and publicly state the fact that I, Michael Surkan, no longer believe in Mormon theology. I comfortable enough with my beliefs not to need the cover of a pseudonym (this is my real name, honest).

My family's Mormon roots go way back generations on my Mom's father's side, and were long a fixture of the southern Alberta LDS community after moving up from Utah long ago. My father was a not too convinced convert who eventually left the church when he divorced my mother when I was 17. Which, was just another of the reasons I decided to take flight from the continent and take a sojourn working in Germany for a year where I lived illegally, finding people willing to hire me doing computer programming. This was 1989. My self exile not only allowed me to insulate myself from all the unpleasantness of watching beloved parents hurt one another but it also gave me the space I wanted to get out from all the expectations from my friends and community.

My devout mother had raised all her children, including myself, in the LDS church. I took to it with gusto. I loved learning about scriptures and the philosophy of the gospel. I devoured the Mormon history and felt proud of my pioneer ancestors. The Mormon otherness stories of persecution appealed to me a great deal. I loved the idea of standing up for what one believed in regardless of the cost. The martyrdom of Joseph Smith was especially poignant.

I was always the good boy. I was the one who not only behaved well in class (Sunday school or otherwise) but engaged the teachers in serious discussion. I excelled at scouts and was even made the quarter master of district wide camps when I was just 13. Tracting with missionaries was especially fun. I took pride in not only handling rejection but in pitching the gospel to prospective members with the most earnest testimony imaginable.

I particularly enjoyed bible bashing with evangelical friends who were trying to save me. Some of my fondest memories are of sitting in hallways of my High School hurling scriptures as weapons of combat at my friend's youth pastor (who seemed to hang out in my school a lot for some reason).

I could sometimes even convince myself that I actually believed the theology I was proselytizing. The reality, however, is that from about the age of 10 I had been nurturing a hidden streak of atheist belief. My passion for reading and learning made me wonder how any church could really be true. I never really had a crisis of faith in Mormonism, per-se. My issue was with the whole idea of religion to begin with.

But the Mormon church was just so fun! Unfortunately, a reckoning was just around the corner. Soon I would be leaving High School and all my friends and church leaders were bound to start asking when I was going to be starting my mission. I just couldn't see how I could do this. It's not that I found it problematic to sell a lie (I had never had a problem trying to convince others of the truth of the church even though I didn't believe it). Rather, I didn't want to spend over a year of my life perusing something I didn't really care about.

By leaving for Germany even before my High School graduation day I was able to avoid all those tough questions from my community. I never did serve a mission.

But I wasn't ready to call the church quits just yet. I may not have believed in the Mormon theology but I still loved the church. I loved the whole thing. Services, culture, service, community. The first thing I did in Germany was to look up the church and start attending services. There were four LDS wards in Munich at the time and one of them was English speaking due to all the American servicemen and ex-pats who were in the city. I decided to go to one of the German speaking wards instead. After all, I was there to learn German.

Ironically, I wound up joining a clique of Americans who had the same idea as myself. The German members were a little reserved and the English speaking outsiders wound up spending a lot of time together. In fact, I became such close friends with an American executive and his wife that they became my surrogate parents, and we developed a fast relationship that lasted for many years. It was this executive who eventually offered me a job with his computer company in California, and I never went back to my home in Canada.

I continued to attend church but never shared my complete lack of faith - although the nature of my testimony changed. If you listened closely you wouldn't hear me talking about how I knew the church was the one true church and such like. Instead, I would talk about how the church made me a better person and the like. Slowly, I became more open in sharing my thoughts as I attended a young adult ward in Palo Alto, California. It got to the point that I was quite open about my atheism. I recall even reading excerpts from Atlas Shrugged when teaching a Sunday School class once. No one batted an eye.

It's almost like I was daring the church to expel me. But it never happened. Instead, I was appointed as secretary of the Elder's quorum even though I only held the Aaronic priesthood. One of my fondest memories is from home teaching. I just loved helping other members. Doing service was always one of the biggest joys I got from the church.

Whenever I mentioned that I didn't actually believe the Book of Mormon was the word of God my home teaching companion and elder's quorum president would just laugh and say that my tireless efforts to help others and build the ward showed that I did have a testimony of the gospel, regardless of what I actually said.

Ever so slowly, my need to keep attending church just melted away. There wasn't some big epiphany or anything. I think I just gradually had enough other things to fill my life that I didn't feel the need to keep going to church anymore. By 1996 I had pretty much become inactive. All of my siblings (all younger than I) likewise exited the church. They just stopped going much earlier than I did.

To this day I still keep the word of wisdom. It's not because I believe in the revelation, but rather because I never felt the need for smoking or drinking and figure there is no reason to start the habits now. Also, I still feel very much a "Mormon" as part of my identity. I am still proud of my upbringing and heritage. I always feel right at home whenever I am around Mormons.

Oddly, I feel a little more comfortable around Mormons than I do with my own new adopted Unitarian religion. My family now attends a local Unitarian congregation that we love. Seeing as how one of the two pastors is a Christian and the other is an atheist my wife and I are pretty much covered (she's a liberal Christian and I am a wacko atheist). I even taught Sunday school for a couple years. I had no problem teaching the pre-schoolers about Hanukah or the principals of peace (i.e. the Unitarian Sunday school curriculum teaches kids about all religions). This weekend we are taking my kids to a friend's mosque to experience what it's like to celebrate Ramadan.

And this is the story to date.

I have never asked to have my records removed from the LDS church. However, I am seriously wondering if maybe I should consider doing that now.

The real reason I have been motivated to "come out" on this forum is because I have become deeply saddened by the growth of intolerance I see occurring in the church. I noticed the excommunication of Kate Kelly in the news and then began checking out Mormon blogs for the first time. I then discovered a whole world of dissidents who seem to be under attack. I have listened to a number of John Dehlin's podcasts and my heart just breaks.

What happened to the church that allowed an atheist like myself to be in the Elder's quorum and become a home teacher? What happened to the church that didn't bat an eye when I read Ayn Rand in Sunday school?

I suppose this love and acceptance I found may have just been on a local level. I didn't have a blog or podcast show fostering Mormon dissent back in the '90s.

The world of the bloggernacle, to which I have recently become exposed, is truly amazing. I have learned more about the faith of my childhood in the last two weeks than I had ever learned in Sunday school or seminary. It is utterly fascinating to read details about how church doctrine has changed over time.

I can't say that this new information about Church history has shaken my faith, since I lost whatever I had of it long ago. But I am overjoyed to see this interest amongst the Mormon community to explore these things. I still chafe when I hear non-Mormons criticize the church. But then, I get upset when anyone criticizes another religion. What gives anyone the right to declare that someone else is going to hell, or that they practice heresy? It is for this very reason that branding someone an apostate is so troublesome to me. Let God decide who will and who will not go to heaven (if you believe in a God, of course).

So that's my story. Who knows. Maybe someone in the church will see this post and decide that they need to excommunicate me for spreading evil. Then I won't have to bother sending in a request to have my membership expunged.

If this post isn't sufficient, then maybe one of my recent YouTube videos where I talk about my Mormon past will do the trick:
http://youtu.be/lyWQc3iUZzo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Welcome!

Sorry for being dramatic. I just haven't thought about my LDS roots in a long time and just thought it would be nice to share my thoughts with others for a change.

As to a point? My only real goal was to introduce myself to everyone, warts and all. I kind of got carried away writing about my life story.

I sense that you are somewhat frustrated. It seems to me that if controversial members have no place in the church, you feel you have even less place given your current belief structure. You seem to want to get inevitability over with. I don't personally believe that those who become atheists truly believe there is nothing beyond us (God, afterlife, etc). It's something they have simply discarded based on a series of events/personal experiences. But rather they become spiritually dead because they have departed the path where there is no longer light. But does darkness really exist? Or is this condition merely the absence of light? And if there is darkness, it is true that it simply does not comprehend the light. Because we cannot comprehend God, does not mean that God does not exist. Just my two cents.

What is the point of the Unitarian Church, anyway? Is it just to make its members feel good by belonging to a group where anything is accepted and anything goes? I truly don't understand how it's a religion if you can be Christian or atheist.

We really like the Unitarian church. The one guiding principal is that everyone has the right to find their own path to spirituality. We have Buddhists, Christians and even Wiccans in our congregation (and many more belief types, including atheism).

Aside from a willingness to tolerate everyone else's beliefs there is a desire to help one another and do service. We really love being a part of a community of people where we can get involved in helping the poor and the broader community. There is even a Sunday school for our children. The kids have lessons that teach general principals of morality borrowing stories from all religions. When I taught Sunday school there I recall teaching little kids about several different churches (not in the same lesson).

Their teen youth program is very "progressive". Kids learn about sexuality (including contraception) and spend time actually going to other churches. Youth are taught that they need to choose their own path to spirituality.

I really like how open our Unitarian church is. One of our pastors is a woman (the atheist I mentioned). One year my son had a transgender woman teaching his Sunday school class. She was just marvelous, playing her guitar for the kids and really engaging them in the class.

For us, our Unitarian community really works. No one ever hassles us about "converting" or changing our beliefs. For an atheist like myself I still get some of the benefits of a church without having to "believe". My kids get to know other good kids and learn about morality in Sunday school. My whole family gets to participate caring for the poor and other members of our church.

When I was unemployed for a time several years ago the employment group in our congregation was a huge moral help. Our group leader (who volunteered to run the group) was a retired executive who had lots of advice, and all of us would help one another with advice and helpful tips in our respective job searches.

It sure beats just having no community at all to be involved in. Yes, there are people in my church who believe some really CRAZY stuff, to my way of thinking, but it doesn't bother me in the least. They aren't trying to shove those ideas down my throat (which is pretty much the only real "sin" you can commit in our church) and even those people on the fringe contribute to our community of people who care for and help one another.

We have a lot of "damaged" people in our congregation who are shell-shocked refugees from a wide variety of belief systems. There are people that were raised in fundamentalist evangelical religions who talk about how much it messed up their lives. We even have a couple ex-Mormons who go on about their troubled past. Frankly, I am a bit odd in this respect. I came from another church but I don't have any negative feelings towards it. I really enjoyed my time as an active member of the Mormon church and have no regrets about it.

I have suggested that our youth group make a point of attending a Mormon church one Sunday.

A casserole brought to our house when my wife is sick is just as tasty if it was made by a Wiccan or a Christian (even if the casserole is vegan).

There is an actual theology and history to Unitarianism (which came out of a differing interpretation of the holy trinity as well as a belief that no God would ever send people to "hell"), but only a minority of members actually believe it. The majority of congregants hold a hodgepodge of religious ideas.

I don't know whether the current Unitarian church fits the definition of a "religion" anymore. It depends on who defines the term I guess. Frankly, whether my church is a "religion" or not is kind of irrelevant to me. It provides a loving community that accepts my family and provides us with a lot of joy. That's pretty good in my book.

msurkan wrote: I don't know whether the current Unitarian church fits the definition of a "religion" anymore. It depends on who defines the term I guess. Frankly, whether my church is a "religion" or not is kind of irrelevant to me. It provides a loving community that accepts my family and provides us with a lot of joy. That's pretty good in my book.

Welcome to the forum.

While your introductory story may make it appear that something has changed in your life and response to LDS theology, this final paragraph makes it clear that most likely very little has changed.

Your whole under theme of your OP is how you reveled in the social elements that sustained your efforts of remaining associated with the LDS community. You reiterate in multiple ways, a common thread of feeling accepted, and appreciating the interaction and a genuine love for helping others. These were the priorities of your membership, those things which satisfied your personal sense of inner needs for which you found solace in a community emphasized by the training of your mother from your youth.

Now, you find another group which enables you to continue a lifelong practice of finding self satisfaction in the sense of community and self worth that is fostered by that same sense of community. In my summation of the discussion thus far it is not that you lost trust in God or the LDS Church. Those were never the things you sought for as God has never been your quest and the LDS church could not feed in you the inner need to find salvation in which some find priority.

Bottom line I do not think you have rejected God or the church so much as you have not found either sufficient to actually reject them. That you may never hear the voice that calls to his sheep is possible but candidly you can't lose what you never had. Thus there is hope yet that at least you may revisit the effort for the intent for which it ultimately is designed to achieve of bringing one to at least a reasonable grasp of the potential that there is a God, who knows you and loves you and will save you and your family if you allow it.

Either way I would cease pretending you have ever given it a fair shot. Thus far I see no evidence of such.

@brlenox - Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. I did not intend to infer that I had given the Mormon church a "fair shot". I know that there were times when I did try to gain a testimony of the gospel through prayer and study, but whether that constitutes a "fair shot" or not I can't really say.

Thinking back on things, though, I never thought of myself as an "atheist" until I was in High School. I may not have been confident in my belief in God or the divine nature of scriptures but I hadn't come to the conclusion I just didn't believe in God at all. I think I was still holding hope that maybe I could find God.

Of course, when I was very young I don't think I really had a true idea of whether I believed in a God or not. I certainly thought I believed in God when I was 8, but that was more because I didn't really think there was an alternative.

The broader point is that it never really bothered me that I didn't have a belief in God. Not when I was in the Mormon church. Not once I had left it. I did feel something was missing in my life when I first left the Mormon church but now that I have found another community that feeling has gone.

All of that said, I do miss the "Mormon" culture. I will never feel quite as at home with my Unitarian Buddhist friends as I still do hanging out with LDS people. You can never quite throw off the culture you were raised in.

It is my hope that I can have some degree of interaction with Mormons (or ex-Mormons) on this forum. It is NOT my intent to tear down anyone's faith or convert them to Unitarianism. In fact, to this day I get quite angry when I hear critics of the church tearing it down with slander.

Which is not to say I don't wish that the Mormon church couldn't change in some ways. Not so much because I want to return but because I dearly want for it to do well and for its members to be able to have rich, fulfilling lives. This is why I have been so touched hearing about what's been happening recently to people like Kate Kelly and John Dehlin. It is my sincerest wish that the Mormon church can become mature enough to allow ALL kinds of people to exist within it.

This doesn't mean the church needs to change it's policies towards women ordinations or gay marriage, but I don't see why turning its back on members who advocate for changes like this helps anyone.

There are a variety of folks here and all are welcome. I hope that our questions or suppositions haven't put you out. You seem like a gentle and genuine person and I am sure you will find it enjoyable here.

Someone once remarked that Unitarianism is humanism with a religious mask--in a good way. They practice being Christian without the label of the needed belief. They are ultimately based on orthopraxy, not orthodoxy, which is better, in my estimation, than even Mormon who are bent on orthodoxy to "save" them. The great benefit of Unitarianism is the quest for truth-something shared by many Mormons. Mormons, at least our early ancestors, were inquisitive that way. They attempted to test the Spirits and find truth within it. If they needed answers, they prayed for it, the fought for it, until God revealed His will. Maybe that's why you find their community rewarding, the deeply held reverence for truth, and the putting into practice the idea of Christian charity. I have another friend who is Mormon turned Buddhist who attends Unitarian church.

The ONLY problem I find with Unitarianism in the propensity to be overly liberal or progressive politically, too much acceptance of government orthodoxy. I'm not sure a conservative would be welcome there.

Not surprised, it will be like in the days of Noah, many will leave the church just before the second coming. Sad but true.

Welcome!

I really like that you have been able to keep an open mind! That will be an enormous blessing as you are learning things. Sometimes I'm still too close-minded....and I'm a convert and I feel I have a pretty open and accepting mind! LOL!

I also like that you're an atheist who talks about God. My great-grandmother was the same way. My husband was agnostic until a few years ago. (He believed God had created us and then turned us loose and didn't care about what happened to us. It was the only way he could logically explain the deep wounds, pains and disappointments he suffered in life.) My grandfather didn't much care for organized religion. He read his bible and talked to God on his own and learned of the Gospel directly from the Lord, without ever becoming mormon.

I'm going to bet you have a special mission to understand many different religions and that you will be a great asset to understanding where others are coming from. Seriously, welcome!

So. Had any good dreams lately?!!

Thank you for your story, and welcome!

There is a wide variety of people on this website. Some people flat out disagree with each other, but I have still found ldsfreedomforum to be a rewarding experience. People have these things called paradigms, you see? And if you call into question their paradigms, they would like to feed you to the wolves rather than confront these new ideas. Maybe it's just me, but when people are so very rude and cautious talking to others who believe differently then them, it just shows me that somewhere deep inside, they're in turmoil. They're scared. They're not very sure about their beliefs somewhere in there. The people in my life who are open and loving and kind are the ones, in my experience, who are the most solid and peaceful in their beliefs. This is how I imagine the Savior taught. He was calling into question many peoples long held beliefs, but he was tirelessly patient with them. They would get mad at Him, I imagine all the time, and accuse Him of various silliness. But He was forever kind, patient, and persuasive.

I think it's awesome you've led a life of service to your fellows on this crazy little blue and green planet. Service is where it is at, brother. Way to go! Hope you enjoy it here and don't get chased out by others that want you in their paradigm or else would have you leave. To me, this is one of the biggest problems facing the church right now. There are people that were saddened by Kate Kelly's excommunication, and those that said "GOOD RIDDANCE! WE DONT NEED HER KIND!" ......Christ is pretty saddened by this state of mind. I know that. If only they would pick up their scriptures and read about Christ in the true light. Was Christ a condescending, hypocritical, mean, intolerant kind of man? Nope, quite the opposite. I think the reasons a lot of people don't like Christianity, is because the Christ that said Christians worship isn't exactly who Christ is at all. Thank you for your Christlike example, Micheal Surkin! You "get" it.

Hi Msurkan...

It is quite interesting that mormons that leave the church most liklely become atheists or agnostics rather than going into another religion.

I loved reading your story, and even when I am an inactive LDS that was born within the church and even have worked in the "area" (actually my father rented the first offices for the church here and he also worked for the church for a while) and i am also married to a christian wife, I actually dislike being among mormons or at church activities (at least in my country) however i always invite the missionaries for dinner or just to chatt about stuff cause I also went to a mission and i really feel comfortable among missionaries, but just missionaries and not all of them... Unfortunately I am not doing very well at the word of wisdom, sometimes I light a cigarette, I thing I got from my first wife who was also a mormon...

I have to confess that I have learned more about mormonism and theology and religions in general in this time that i have been out of the church, than within the church itself... But being a young boy in church was amazing, I wouldnt change that for anything in the world...

But despite the errors in my life I do believe in mormon doctrine and I know its true... Even when people and even leaders make almost the imposible to makes us look even worse than the Broadway Musical... I hope this change someday

Welcome!

Msurkan,I find your story interesting. My favorite cousin is a Unitarian. He is a RM ,married in the temple ,8 kids ,served multiple times in the bishopric, kids went on missions etc. He then "came out ' as gay. Got a divorce and been living with his male partners for the last 30 years or so. He and I periodically have discussions on religious issues and he has taught me a bit about how the Unitarian church functioned. i have always found it interesting that ,as my cousin admits, there is no real theology or metaphysics taught or jointly believed. I could never understand its attraction other than its social aspects which apparently both you and my cousin enjoy. I think that that is nice and I suppose that if you are truly an atheist that may not matter ( although I think is is logically impossible to be an atheist - an agnostic sure , but an atheist no). But I sense a longing in you for something more .For a greater spiritual connection. My cousin feels it too. Unfortunately i don't think that your articulated desire that the church will mature to allow all kinds will be realized . While I think that the periodical purges are wrong the fundamental fact is that the church ultimately consists of those who head the call of the Savior to take upon them his name and keep his commandments .There have always been many who like the doctrine or the social aspects ,but the message of the gospel has always been to cast off the world and its precepts, sell all that you have and follow the Savior and keep his commandments. Ones failure to be willing to do this doesn't mean you can't be a good person or do much good in the world but you can't be a true disciple unless you do. Welcome to the forum and may God bless you.

pjbrownie wrote:The ONLY problem I find with Unitarianism in the propensity to be overly liberal or progressive politically, too much acceptance of government orthodoxy. I'm not sure a conservative would be welcome there.

I have a libertarian bent and am not too interested in some of the social activism of my Unitarian church, but this hasn't been a problem for me. No one forces me to participate in the various social activist causes that members undertake (supporting gay marriage is one of the things I actually agree with). I don't know how to explain why, but the fact that some members pursue political causes I don't agree with in the slightest just doesn't bother me. I don't even feel compelled to get in huge arguments with other members over it.

Just one example that comes to mind is one ad-hoc group in my congregation that goes to High Schools trying to dissuade the youth from signing up for the military. I totally disagree with this and would even be proud if my children enlisted as a career path. However, I don't really mind that some of my dear friends in our church feel very differently about this. There are scads of these ad-hoc activist clubs. Any member is free to start whatever group they want. Every few months we have a special fair after church where every club has a table and tells the other members what they are up to, and trying to drum up interest in their activities. These groups run the gamut from a Dad's group to an anti-war activists club. I doubt very much that anyone would get upset if someone were to start a group dedicated to supporting the armed forces. It's viewed as perfectly acceptable to have opposing groups in the same church.

I sometimes mention that I have some differing views regarding the government or military and no one has ever gotten hostile about it.

In short, most Unitarians would have no problem with a "conservative" in their midst. The biggest issues is whether the conservatives could stand living side by side with flaming liberals. If you feel uncomfortable with women clergy or gay people teaching Sunday school to kids then this is NOT the church for you. In the very same way that Unitarians wouldn't mind having a conservative teach Sunday school to 7 year-olds they also don't mind if the teacher is a transgender communist. The thing that matters is your willingness to accept others. If you can do that then there really isn't much of a problem.

msurkan wrote: ... If you feel uncomfortable with women clergy or gay people teaching Sunday school to kids then this is NOT the church for you. In the very same way that Unitarians wouldn't mind having a conservative teach Sunday school to 7 year-olds they also don't mind if the teacher is a transgender communist. The thing that matters is your willingness to accept others. If you can do that then there really isn't much of a problem.

On the contrary, there is a big problem... Satan is in control of the Unitarian Church

msurkan,

As a life long member who's looked at all the religions and also scrutinized the LDS church, I can guarantee two things:

1. All churches can be good in the eyes of God, but only the LDS church is "true" in the sense that it is the only one with the keys of the priesthood, and the only one that teaches the correct principles of the gospel, the nature of God, and the doctrines that enable God's children to exercise faith and grow even closer to Him than we otherwise could. What we do with this institution and knowledge is up to us.

2. Church doctrine has not changed. Society has changed. The attacks are more clever and more intense.

I encourage you to judge the church on the feelings of the Spirit you feel when there, and compare this feeling to how you feel in any other church on earth. If you judge it on its doctored history, on the behavior of mortals, you'll be disappointed. That amounts to relying on the arm of flesh.

Good luck in your search.

Janadele1 wrote:Satan is in control of the Unitarian Church

Genius! This explains why my pastor was quoting from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" in his sermon this Sunday (the bit about learning to fly by missing the ground). He must have been channeling the devil.

Hi Michael, welcome to the forum.

I am no longer a member of the church but I still believe in the Book of Mormon. I would like to see more people accept the Book of Mormon without feeling the pressure to join the church. I just think it teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ in clear language.

I'm not trying to "convert" you, but I am curious as to why you reject the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Is it the historical issues, such as the lack of evidence that horses ever existed on the American continent? Or is it doctrinal issues, (which I could see being an issue since you do not believe in God)? I'm just wondering. I think it could be useful for me to know.

Jezebel wrote:I'm not trying to "convert" you, but I am curious as to why you reject the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

For me, I think the real issue was that I never really believed in God to begin with. It's kind of hard to accept the book of Mormon if you doubt the existence of a God (or at least think that the existence of one is irrelevant to how we lead our lives or have joy).

I tried to gain faith through praying and reading the scriptures for years, but I never felt it. As the years went by I slowly began to stop having a desire to find God. It just didn't seem important to me anymore. The more reading I did on secular philosophy, the less I felt that I needed God to lead a good and fulfilled life.

I really liked the Book of Mormon. The stories were great. It just didn't grip me.

Thanks for answering. I am now wondering what you use as your moral foundation. How do you decide what guidelines you live by?

Basically, after reading lots of philosophical and history books (I am a huge history buff), I pretty much came to the conclusion that treating other people well and making myself of service is the best thing I can do to both feel good about myself and have a great life.

In fact, service was the one thing I absolutely gained a "testimony" of as a practicing Mormon. There was simply nothing else in my life as a child and young man that gave me the same sense of satisfaction and joy as helping others.

I don't just view this in an altruistic sense. I feel fantastic knowing I helped build a good company (like the startup I work at now) or do a fantastic job. When I see someone using software I built, or make sales using the marketing techniques I suggested, I am just thrilled. I feel like I am making a difference, helping humanity even.

I could tell you so many amazing stories about how great things happened to me as a byproduct of just doing good. It's kind of like karma. What goes around comes around...

This sounds odd, I suppose, considering how Ayn Rand is one of my favourite philosophers. Her works really opened my eyes as to how you could have a moral existence based on principals that come from within rather than without. That doesn't mean I hang on every word she wrote as some people do.

Like I said, I developed my own philosophy from a wide variety of sources. Even my experience in the Mormon church contributed (as I mentioned about service).

So basically, you found what made you happy and you did it, right? You found that certain moral standards created happiness, for yourself and others.

That is interesting. For me, as I lived my religion and came to know God, I came to the same conclusion. So much of religion is forced and unpleasant, but that is not what I was getting from God. He was telling me that happiness is a good measure as to whether you are living right or not. My entire life has changed as a result and I am much happier these days than I ever was before.

Jezebel wrote:So basically, you found what made you happy and you did it, right? You found that certain moral standards created happiness, for yourself and others.

Yes. I discovered that doing "good" made me happy and that the belief in God was superfluous. If you know that something brings you joy why wouldn't you want to do that?

To that end, I think the Mormon church teaches a lot of great things that really DO result in joyous lives. So do many religions. Unfortunately, religions preach whole theologies along with practical advice for living happily.

This is where I think there is a void in the secular world. It's not good enough to live in disbelief. Humans have to believe in something, and be taught the principals of life that will lead them to happiness. I don't think there is an innate genetic instinct guiding us to do good (and be happy). It is my hope that I can teach my children these principals by example and by being part of a community that believes in helping others and doing good too (like the Unitarians, for example).

Who knows... It might just be my luck that my kids rebel and become sincere followers of a religion that believes in God. For now, my 9 year old son says he believes in Odin and Valhalla. We'll see how long that lasts.