LDS Freedom Forum

msurkan wrote:Who knows... It might just be my luck that my kids rebel and become sincere believers of a religion that believes in God. For now, my 9 year old son says he believes in Odin and Valhalla. We'll see how long that lasts.

:))

Yours is an awesome story. I read your original introductory post, and scanned the rest. It sounds to me like you conflate "God" with "church" or "religion". That's pretty common. Many churches and religions, I think, encourage that sleight of hand. I fell for it, too, for a long time.

One day, while reading the BOM, I had a witness given to me that Jesus is real, and that He is my Saviour. It was powerful, and made an indelible mark on my soul. That experience confirmed to me the only thing I KNOW. I suspect my wife of 25 years loves me, I believe the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, and I KNOW Jesus is real and He's my Saviour. I did not receive a testimony of the BOM, of the LDS church or any prophet. It took me a long time to un-conflate my knowledge of Jesus from the church.

I'm with you, the Mormon church provides a great structure to live a mostly happy life. There are lots of good people, service opportunities and fun activities. But it does not have the power to save you. Good luck and godspeed on your journey of life. I would encourage you, however, to ask Jesus if he's there and if so, to make himself known to you.

Obrien wrote:Yours is an awesome story. I read your original introductory post, and scanned the rest. It sounds to me like you conflate "God" with "church" or "religion".

Thanks so much for your kind words. As far as "God", "Church" and "Religion" goes, I draw a definite distinction between "Church" and "Religion". I equate "religion" with theology and "church" with a social institution. The two concepts are enmeshed quite often since many churches insist you believe in the theology (or religion) as a condition of participation.

This is one of the reasons I like my Unitarian church. It doesn't insist I accept any particular theology or ideology to be a member (other than the acceptance of differing beliefs other people hold).

Michael, your story brings me some very strong feelings...I too, raised my children in the gospel, and all have now left it. I am divorced, and my husband also was divorced--his kids also have all left the church with stories somewhat similar to yours. They are all very good people with good lives and happy with their choices, but I have to admit, as a parent, it causes me some considerable grief since I have a powerful personal relationship with Jesus Christ and some very intense spiritual experiences and belief in the LDS cosmology.

It is somewhat comforting to read, as well, and realize that somehow, divorce and contention in the home seem to affect children similarly, and I know there is little I could have done to change the home my children grew up in, and my husband feels the same (we both left abusive marriages--emotionally and sometimes physically violent).

Thank you for your honesty. Your story is enlightening to me, and though it makes me sad, in some ways it is also comforting. Your sharing is helpful to me to understand my own children. Thanks.

I have read most of your posts now. I think its great you discovered and live the truths of natural law. Call it karma or the golden rule or casting your bread on the waters, they all boil down to natural law.

In reading your posts, and in re-reading mine, please don't take offense at my comments about conflating concepts. Obviously, you're intelligent and recognize distinctions between terms. I would have realized this fact had I read your posts before writing. That said, don't totally discard the notion of Jesus. Be open minded enough to re-examine His existence when He touches your heart.

Desert Roses wrote:Your story is enlightening to me, and though it makes me sad, in some ways it is also comforting. Your sharing is helpful to me to understand my own children. Thanks.

I am glad you find my story helpful. I understand that it is painful for believing parents to see their children go astray. However, I think that it is important to always keep a loving attitude towards everyone, even our apostate family members.

I know that my mother was in terrible anguish seeing all her children leave the church. She blamed herself for being a terrible mom. For years she would talk about how she had failed me. When I started dating my wife she was perplexed at why I had piles of unopened letters from my mother. I let her open some and she saw that they were all these sad laments and apologies for being such a terrible parent and that she was praying for my soul.

I just couldn't bear to read them.

Eventually, everyone in my family has learned to get along quite well. My mother is no longer sad and has become a wonderful grandmother. My children really enjoy her visits.

Interestingly, my devout grandfather (my Mom's Dad) told me a number of years ago that he has come to realize that my unbelieving father wasn't such a bad guy after all and that he was happy my siblings and I have grown up to do well. The entire extended family has just become more flexible in their willingness to accept differences. There has been so much human failing over the years, from various family members, that most of my Mom's greater family has come to realize that judging people on a narrow view of fidelity to the LDS church isn't very useful. Why is it that a non-believing apostate like myself, who lives a great life with a nice family, should be ostracized when another "believing" family member is embraced even when they are prosecuted for criminal activity?

Just being LDS doesn't make you "good" in and of itself (it doesn't make you bad either).

Seeing how my Mom's family has really changed their view of relating to their non believing relatives (of which there are many now, not just my brothers and sisters) makes me happier than I can say.

Sounds awesome. Reading your posts make me want to check out my local Unitarian congregation. Unfortunately I work every Sunday. Is there a dress code in case I do ever get the chance to visit?

wargames83 wrote:Reading your posts make me want to check out my local Unitarian congregation. Is there a dress code in case I do ever get the chance to visit?

We have an EXTREMELY loose dress code. People wear shorts, sandals, t-shirts, and even dresses and ties. Shirtless would likely look a little odd during Sunday service.

Our congregation has lots of activities at other times of the week than Sunday, so you can check us out even if you can't make it on Sunday.

Welcome. I'm FSM. I bet you know what that means. To be honest I am a weak atheist myself. And I still go to church. Going to church has made me this way. O well. Welcome. Just to warn you there are some viscous people on hear who may not have your better interest on mind. The best way to respond to them is with silence. Then again there are some really good people on hear. These are the ones to cherish. Please tell me where you rate on Richard Dawkins belief scale? I'm between a 4-6

FSM wrote:Welcome. I'm FSM. I bet you know what that means.

my first thought:

Additional beliefs generally held by Unitarian's are:

•Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works in any way.
•Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism.
•The Holy Spirit is not a person, does not have a will, etc.
•There now is and will be rewards and punishments according to one's actions but this does not consist of the traditional doctrine of hell.
•Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth.

When I was on my mission, my mission president's wife gave a talk at one zone conference in which she taught us how we are saved by grace alone. She proved it through the scriptures and the teachings of the modern day church leaders. She showed us how it didn't conflict with our understanding of "faith plus works." It really opened my mind and helped me see how I could focus more on how I was alike to others than how we were different. It also challenged me to take a deeper look into doctrine. I have a lot to thank that woman for.