Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

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TheOneWhoYearns
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Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by TheOneWhoYearns »

"The church is experiencing a truth crisis because the Internet is exposing all the churches cover up and is crushing the foundational truth claims of the religion. That's the core problem. Not the members own faith crisis. Our faith issues are a direct result of the churches own truth crisis.

The church does not want to deal with its problems so they go after jd and others who actively promote honest and reasonable open discussion.
It's a good way to shift the discussion from blaming the victim for having a "faith crisis", to focusing on the real issue- that the Church is having a truth crisis. There is so little that the Church is 100% truthful about. Even with the essays- the Church is admitting more truth, but still can't quite get the full truth out.

What magnifies the problem is that the Church demands 100% trust from its members. Up until 5 years ago, I placed so much trust in the Church and its "gospel". In fact, I had more trust in the Church than any other organization in the world. Once I discovered the "truth" that was presented to me by the Church over the past 30+ years was nothing more than a whitewashed reconstruction version of what really happened, I grew to distrust Church and its leaders.

I am not having a faith crisis, I am merely responding to the Church's truth crisis. And my response is this- I will view everything claimed by the Church and its leaders with great skepticism. The burden is now on the Church to support its lofty claims of truth." ---Someone from NOM

"As a youth I remember being taught that the church was just a vehicle for helping the members be more Christ-like and caring, etc. That once the church's mission was accomplished there would be no need for a church! You will not hear that sentiment EVER preached from the pulpit these days. It is all about the church, not the gospel. The church is the be-all, the end-all. You swear your loyalty to the church, not Jesus Christ. You get disciplined for offenses against the church, not offenses against Christ."---Someone from NOM


“I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent–if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression… This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. … We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it.” — Hugh B. Brown

“I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” — Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:340

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” – President J. Reuben Clark

“…regardless of your circumstances, your personal history, or the strength of your testimony, there is room for you in this Church.” — President Dieter Uchtdorf

“I think you’d be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to [the origins of the Book of Mormon], who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we’re not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. … We would say: “This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I’m going forward. If I can help you work toward that I’d be glad to, but I don’t love you less; I don’t distance you more; I don’t say you’re unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can’t make that step or move to the beat of that drum.” … We really don’t want to sound smug. We don’t want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.” – Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

Interesting quotes

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Hyrcanus »

Absolute truth exists, but getting to it is the challenge. In that sense, every crisis is a faith crisis. One person can look at Polygamy and still be a wholehearted believer, another looks at the same thing and no longer chooses to believe. This doesn't just apply to the LDS Church, every faith has this problem. Mainline Christianity doesn't stand up any better to this sort of historical scrutiny. Same with Judasim and Islam.

In that sense it isn't the Church's problem to solve. That doesn't absolve the Church of the responsibility it has in whitewashing some historical details in the past, but if people Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer or anyone else genuinely believe that God has spoken to them, that has to override what some potentially well meaning person whitewashed in the past. It usually doesn't for these people, because they know as well as everyone else that their previous spiritual confirmations were fairly susceptible to their own cognitive biases.

What the Church does have an issue with is that failing to be totally upfront about the history has provided an opening for people with alternative interpretations of history to come in and claim the truth is something different than what the Church says it is. The Church has had that problem since the days of Jesus Christ. It isn't going away. Each individual person has to either make their determination on the basis of facts or faith, any amalgamation of the two is really just a decision based on faith for the reason I outline above.

[Edited to finish my thought]
Last edited by Hyrcanus on June 27th, 2014, 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Now ONLY IF they could do more than just Talk the Talk! IF they would walk the Walk! Then I would say, they are at least as an Institution trying to find the path and help others to walk it. BUT that is NOT what I SEE!!!

If you lie to me about material facts, then you want something from me that I would not naturally give of my own free will and choice (if I had known the facts). That is Theft! Spiritual Thievery at worst, and nothing more than what JS was told about All other churches of his day... They draw close to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me!

This speak of their level of apostasy too! They have become the Methodist that JS rejected! Mind controlling of ones thoughts and beliefs...
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on June 27th, 2014, 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Thinker »

Hi TheOneWhoYearns,
Both faith and truth are such subjective terms, that it is unrealistic to claim one or the other, universally defined.

IE: What I have faith in, what inspires me & what I feel the spirit about, is probably not exactly the same as anyone else, because my PERSPECTIVE of truth is unique, even from moment to moment! What is the "truth" of the church? There are countless PERSPECTIVES, but to claim any one perspective is objective is ignoring the inevitability of subjectivity. It's true that the church provides a convenient way to serve in various callings, to have a community - almost like extended family - who help each other when needed. It's true that the church in higher levels is financially corrupt & teaches cognitive distortions.

Still, I challenge you to find a better practical application of service and community.
Nobody's perfect, and no group of people are perfect (whatever definition YOU choose of perfection).
So, what are we going to do - all be hermits? ;)

I noticed some quotes came from NOM, which I am familiar with.
NOM began by an inspired man, to help those who found issues with the church to feel open to discuss, while appreciating their membership - a middle way. Unfortunately, it has turned into a Mormon-bashing place, where moderators delete, ban or harass posters for posting positive aspects of the church or for disagreeing with abortion, the homosexual agenda or disagreeing with anybody else's Mormon bashings.
It is not what the original founder of NOM intended, at all, but the VAST majority of people are HERD thinkers...
Most (not all) NOM posters simply changed from the Mormon herd, to the Liberal herd.
They still bash & shun & put down anybody for not believing as they do.

How is faith best applied or directed?
Philosopher Paul Tillech explained that your god is your "ultimate concern."
You may say you love the God portrayed in the bible, or Hinduism, or Islam, etc... But what you DO every day - how you spend your time, energy (where your heart is) - THAT is what you truly worship/prioritize.
The key, as Tillech suggested, is to find the symbol that best represents your faith without idoltrous elements.
For me, this is still a work in progress... But for now, I see LOVE as the best application of faith.
But love is so dynamic - same principle: to strive for what is best, throught trial & error - but the application varies moment to moment.

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Thinker »

^The above post from me several years ago, I still believe but was kind of playing devil’s (or church’s lol) advocate. I have seen marriages and families destroyed after 1 or both spouses demand the other honor their version of truth. I hope more take a breath, and remember what’s still in common despite religious differences.

Re: OP...
One thing I have seen over & over by lds family & friends after hearing about my lds beliefs changing is GASLIGHTING.

Image

In dysfunctional families where there is a lot of denial, the one who calls out problems is blamed as scapegoat. It’s similar to Michael’s hatred for the nice HR character, Toby in “The Office.” Rather than admit that the church’s leaders & history involve deception and manipulation, it’s easier to shoot the messenger or blame the person pointing it out.

On the other hand, I have seen & experienced similar gaslighting and scapegoating when I have posted on some ex-Mormon forums, for questioning their new faith/dogma of homosexuality, abortion etc. There seems to be such a strong tendency toward scapegoating & mob mentality - whether it be Mormon or ex-Mormon.

Chances are you are either experiencing a “faith/truth crisis” or someone you care about is. If you are in a marriage in which you are not on the same page regarding this - even more challenging. The following podcast/interview of a lds therapist offered some good ideas., especially regarding respecting one another and building on common ground...

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5 ... Edited.mp3

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

A Faith crisis is created when trust can no longer be placed in a paradigm of paramount, personal importance. A Truth crisis is created when conflicting facts are not reconcilable and there is no authoritative clarification for resolution of the paradox; conflict or contradiction.
Magic Smoke and Mirrors.jpg
Magic Smoke and Mirrors.jpg (121.36 KiB) Viewed 1350 times
The definition of truth previously cited identifies that there are two problems associated with its dissemblance: "more than" and "less than." Truth that is "embellished" is considered to be "the spirit of the wicked one." Truth that is "diminished, marginalized, or excluded" is, also, considered to be "the spirit of the wicked one." By definition, then, one who knowingly obfuscates the Truth in either of these methods is a liar.

The disparity that I find within our Religious Institution deals with these very issues. It is not God's agenda to sweep things under the rug and hide them. God is not the Author of confusion and we are told in scripture that the truthfulness of all things can and will be revealed.

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Thinker »

Truly thirsting after truth & righteousness is noble, but also not easy sailing. Relat-ionships are based on relating, & it can be a bit heartbreaking to not relate as well… & on top of that, be shamed when you see things they don’t.

It’s kind of like hiking & a truth crisis is like being in the the next mountain over, with different terrain. You may use walkie talkies to talk, 1 thinking both are the same but really each is coming from unique perspectives. And when they shame you as if it’s horrible to realize truth, it’s somewhat like hiking a small mountain & looking off in the distance to a mountain that looks small hidden behind the smaller mountain, so is labeled small, but is actually many times bigger.

Image


It’s also like a photograph or picture book with clear plastic sheet overlays which add something with each overlay page.
(Ie anatomy: https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/55245 ... 410527.jpg )
With each page, it feels like, “Wow! I didn’t realize this was here the whole time! This changes everything!” But then it happens again & again. One GA wisely said “we are spiritually born again & again…”

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tmac
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by tmac »

One of the fundamental Laws of Nature is that eventually all truth becomes self-evident. As an example, for centuries the earth was believed to be flat, but eventually the truth became self-evident. This has been the case throughout history and will continue to be so as all truth slowly reveals itself. Although neither the Laws of Nature nor truth evolve, our understanding of them does, and truth will always be truth whether we recognize it or not. Historically, virtually all ground-breaking truth—including actual scientific truth—goes through three basic phases: first, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; third, and finally, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Thinker »

TheOneWhoYearns wrote: June 27th, 2014, 1:51 pm... You get disciplined for offenses against the church, not offenses against Christ."

... Only error fears freedom of expression

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” – President J. Reuben Clark

Interesting quotes
Indeed, interesting.

One of the worst violations against the constitution & Christ, which the lds church commits is shutting down or trying to shame free speech. By doing so, error cannot be corrected & leaders/followers become increasingly lost.

Ultimately, the church has become god for many. They don’t pray to the church but they prioritize it above God.

simpleton
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by simpleton »

People that are truly born again of God, are born again of the same spirit and see eye to eye. They may have different gifts of the spirit and different talents. But again, they see eye to eye. After these seemingly vary rare occasions that we read about in the BofM and Bible, the master deceiver comes along and attempts to deceive. And some get lifted up in pride and get led off into strange paths.
But initially at those "pentecostal" moments in time, they see eye to eye as they are born of the spirit of truth.
The problem mentioned above, IMO, is that most of the members today, and even in the past, raised in the church, are not and were not ever truly born again. But, even being born again is no guarantee that you will stay the course on that straight and narrow path.
Also, just because we all see life through our own dark glasses does not mean that truth is how we see it, all different. Truth is truth, reason is reason and it is eternal, and it is the same. But then along comes the deceiver and tries, (most of the time, successfully) to blind us all, hence the many different false religions, although most have a thread or threads of truth in them.
To me, JS laid the foundation of truth, amidst terrible persecution. And very few came to that knowledge. And today we have a very watered down, "all is well in Zion" Babylonian version of that truth, just what the devil ordered, and some of truths/principles that he revealed were outright rejected. Which is why we do not have that persecution any more. We hate truths that go against our false traditions and that cause the mobs to organize against us.
The persecuted literally became the persecutors.
It is a faith and a truth crises, as faith crumbles when your faith is based upon false traditions, or when you are taught lies to be the truth that eventually get found out.

simpleton
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by simpleton »

tmac wrote: February 20th, 2022, 7:44 am One of the fundamental Laws of Nature is that eventually all truth becomes self-evident. As an example, for centuries the earth was believed to be flat, but eventually the truth became self-evident. This has been the case throughout history and will continue to be so as all truth slowly reveals itself. Although neither the Laws of Nature nor truth evolve, our understanding of them does, and truth will always be truth whether we recognize it or not. Historically, virtually all ground-breaking truth—including actual scientific truth—goes through three basic phases: first, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; third, and finally, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Amen.

simpleton
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by simpleton »

1. Oh say, what is truth? ’Tis the fairest gem
That the riches of worlds can produce,
And priceless the value of truth will be when
The proud monarch’s costliest diadem
Is counted but dross and refuse.

2. Yes, say, what is truth? ’Tis the brightest prize
To which mortals or Gods can aspire.
Go search in the depths where it glittering lies,
Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies:
’Tis an aim for the noblest desire.

3. The sceptre may fall from the despot’s grasp
When with winds of stern justice he copes.
But the pillar of truth will endure to the last,
And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast
And the wreck of the fell tyrant’s hopes.

4. Then say, what is truth? ’Tis the last and the first,
For the limits of time it steps o’er.
Tho the heavens depart and the earth’s fountains burst,
Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged, evermore.

One of my favorite hymns...

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Luke
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Luke »

All functional truth exists in the balance of two opposing principles.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by BuriedTartaria »

It is a truth crisis. The Book of Mormon can be true without the requirement of that meaning the LDS church is true

Maybe the prophet/seer/revelator claims of the LDS church are true. Maybe they aren’t true

But I think people are realizing that the Book of Mormon can be true and stand completely detached from truth or lies of LDS church authority claims.

The Book of Mormon is a heart wrenching warning that should make all of us walk in fear of how real falling away from truth is.

simpleton
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by simpleton »

BuriedTartaria wrote: February 20th, 2022, 11:51 am It is a truth crisis. The Book of Mormon can be true without the requirement of that meaning the LDS church is true

Maybe the prophet/seer/revelator claims of the LDS church are true. Maybe they aren’t true

But I think people are realizing that the Book of Mormon can be true and stand completely detached from truth or lies of LDS church authority claims.

The Book of Mormon is a heart wrenching warning that should make all of us walk in fear of how real falling away from truth is.
The organization/church that JS Smith organized IMO, was founded upon and organized with God's complete approbation and even His commandment.
But, as we have agency, all, from the lowest member to the highest priesthood holder, we can daily choose whom to serve. I think that JS was approved of by God to the bitter end of his life, and that his successer BY was also and as also JT. But, as time went on, we more and more rejected the truths that were revealed to Joseph.
Now, we have leaders approved of man, but not of God. And because of our agency, God allowed it to happen. Now, we are suffering from a famine in the land, a famine of Gods word, from His supposed leaders.
We have compromised and rejected the fulness of the gospel and now we are in the situation that we are in, fully immersed in Babylon, and suffering from its effects.

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TheChristian
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by TheChristian »

A certain man prayed one night asking Jesus for knowlegde ..... That very night he had a dream ........................

He seen the Saviour and His Ancient Apostles standing apon a flat solid rock which was surrounded on all sides by deep soggy mud.
In said deep boggy mud was stuck fast myriads of church goers, the man seeing the Saviour from afar wanted to be with Him so he began slowly but surely to walk thru the mud to get to His Lord, as he struggled forth many of the church goers that were bound fast in said mud sought to grab him and prevent him from getting to the Saviour, but he struggled with all his might past them, at last he reached the solid ground of the Rock and went up amongst the Ancient Apostles and went up to his Lord Jesus and said to Him.............
"Jesus you are the Lord and you know all things"

And Jesus looked the man in the eyes and said,
"Yes I am the Lord and do know all things"
"Come sit with Me and I will tell you all you desire to know" end.......

You see that man had his sight set solely apon the Lord Jesus, he did not give heed to all the religious people stuck fast in the mud, but from afar seen His Redeemer and henceforth made his way to solid ground, the rock of revelation even Jesus Christ His lord............
A place of safety and of sure knowlegde and wisdom...........

The Saviour gave us all a great key to unlock the very secrets of His heavens, to discover the truth or error of all things........

"Whoso ever believes in Me and asks shall surely recieve"
"The man whom searchs will always find, and he that asks shall always be given in great abundance"

blitzinstripes
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by blitzinstripes »

Live the commandments. Court the Spirit. Be patient and wait upon the Lord. I firmly believe He will correct the course of the church before He returns. Above all, beware of false prophets. There are several lurking here on this very forum, preying on the weak and deceiving themselves as well as others. The Holy Ghost will reveal the wolves for who they are. Wait upon the Lord and trust in Him alone.

Trucker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Trucker »

I think the best description is a "trust crisis." People are losing trust in what they've been taught and losing trust in the leaders.

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Hogmeister
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Hogmeister »

liberté, (egalité, fraternité) is a vehicle used by secret Babylon to destroy the old world and introduce the new. Once the new progressive agenda is sufficiently established the traditional voices/values will be silenced. No more liberté for them. I believe Hugh B. Brown was a progressive and he really disliked ETB who saw his agenda.

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Niemand
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Niemand »

Remember there is more than one meaning to "church". It can refer to:

1) An organisation
2) A building
3) The congregation
4) The True Believers (in Christ)

Now my take is that 1) is of limited relevance to me. Even 2) although I am appreciative of having a meeting house.

3) is probably the most important to me, if I'm honest with myself. There is an overlap between 3) & 4) of course, but 4) is often a subset of 3) in LDS terms.

4) exists inside our congregations and outside them and definitely outside the organisation. It will exist in spite of 1 & 2.

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Thinker »

I have repeatedly asked extended family to please not send Mormon stuff, trying to change my mind, but they keep doing it, like this morning. For that and other reasons, I’ve increased boundaries & won’t even try to respond.

If I did respond, I might share this talk by a guy who left the church for a while, has some good tips for members who actually care about family or friends who have left the church…

“I asked a Facebook group notorious for its community of ex-Mormons — many of whom are very vocal about their frustrations with the church — a question: ‘What would you tell a member of the church to avoid doing if they DON’T WANT to cause unnecessary pain for someone they love who has chosen to leave?’
Here are some of the responses:

*When people treat you with pity and say things like, “I’m praying for you.”
*When you’re turned into a “project” and people only come to your house to fulfill a calling or “under assignment from the Bishop”
*When your family is turned into a weapon and used against you, like getting grandkids excited about church with the agenda of motivating parents to take them in the future, or using a family member’s temple sealing to pressure a less-active member into getting a temple recommend when they’re not worthy or don’t desire one.
*When you make assumptions about why someone leaves — like that they just want to sin, they don’t have enough faith, or they were never truly committed. I can’t tell you how many people said they’ve been gone from church for YEARS and nobody ever asked them why they left and sincerely listened to their answers.
*When you don’t reach out as a friend. Once some people stop coming to church, you might feel uncomfortable and ignore them because you don’t know what to say.
*Sending missionaries to visit them when they move to a new neighborhood despite constant requests to not be contacted by missionaries.
*Assuming that leaving the church equates to a loss of morals.
*Bearing your testimony to them with the assumption that it will somehow magically make their doubts and struggles disappear.

So the problem we’re running into is that people leave the church because they’re hurt… and then in an attempt to bring them back, we hurt them even more.
What you should do instead
So if you can’t do any of the above things to convince those you love to come back to church, what do you do?
The answer is simple: Stop trying to get them to come back to church!
Just love them...”


https://humanparts.medium.com/why-peopl ... 0e3e817a3a

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Niemand
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Niemand »

Thinker wrote: November 30th, 2022, 9:32 am I have repeatedly asked extended family to please not send Mormon stuff, trying to change my mind, but they keep doing it, like this morning. For that and other reasons, I’ve increased boundaries & won’t even try to respond.

If I did respond, I might share this talk by a guy who left the church for a while, has some good tips for members who actually care about family or friends who have left the church…

“I asked a Facebook group notorious for its community of ex-Mormons — many of whom are very vocal about their frustrations with the church — a question: ‘What would you tell a member of the church to avoid doing if they DON’T WANT to cause unnecessary pain for someone they love who has chosen to leave?’
Here are some of the responses:

*When people treat you with pity and say things like, “I’m praying for you.”
*When you’re turned into a “project” and people only come to your house to fulfill a calling or “under assignment from the Bishop”
*When your family is turned into a weapon and used against you, like getting grandkids excited about church with the agenda of motivating parents to take them in the future, or using a family member’s temple sealing to pressure a less-active member into getting a temple recommend when they’re not worthy or don’t desire one.
*When you make assumptions about why someone leaves — like that they just want to sin, they don’t have enough faith, or they were never truly committed. I can’t tell you how many people said they’ve been gone from church for YEARS and nobody ever asked them why they left and sincerely listened to their answers.
*When you don’t reach out as a friend. Once some people stop coming to church, you might feel uncomfortable and ignore them because you don’t know what to say.
*Sending missionaries to visit them when they move to a new neighborhood despite constant requests to not be contacted by missionaries.
*Assuming that leaving the church equates to a loss of morals.
*Bearing your testimony to them with the assumption that it will somehow magically make their doubts and struggles disappear.

So the problem we’re running into is that people leave the church because they’re hurt… and then in an attempt to bring them back, we hurt them even more.
What you should do instead
So if you can’t do any of the above things to convince those you love to come back to church, what do you do?
The answer is simple: Stop trying to get them to come back to church!
Just love them...”


https://humanparts.medium.com/why-peopl ... 0e3e817a3a
Most people, even church members (!), have some sense of sincerity.

It's odd, I was helping our stake president with some things last Sunday – moving large objects around, finding things etc. I don't dislike him, but I did pick up on the fact that while I was chatting with him, that he was very distant. It's not like I was asking personal questions or being clingy or anything like that, I was having a normal conversation with him, but he was very business-like. He has been acquainted with me for a few years now, but honestly I've had better interactions with complete strangers!

Do I feel angry? No. Was he rude? No. Was I wasting time? No, we were just getting on with some work. Do we dislike each other? Definitely not, but there was just no real connection there. That's where the problem lies. When you have an entire group of people like that people won't hang around. I've encountered other people in my ward like that. There are people I've been to church with for ten years that I barely know. I go to a local independent café occasionally and I know the manager there much better than I know some ward members who've been round for years.
Assuming that leaving the church equates to a loss of morals.
Agreed – ditto mental illness.

Also stop assuming people only leave because someone offended them! That does happen, we know that, but many leave for numerous other reasons. I've heard this one repeated by GAs and church leaders so many times.

In the instance I mention above, I wasn't actually offended by the stake president and I'm happy to give him the time of day, but with him and certain others I feel no connection.

This issue has become worse since lockdown. Some older people have barely come back, and I barely know anyone who has moved in since. Most people barely acknowledge me, which I have mixed feelings about.

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FrankOne
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by FrankOne »

a new thought on this subject: (for me anyway)

As the govt has lost credibility due to fraud and corruption, the church follows the same course.

Perhaps in the near future, those that are still devout blind followers of the Q15 will also be blind followers of the Govt. Those duped by the govt are also those duped by church authority. Same genre. Same family. One family. Each smiling stupidly. Groomed whirled citizens.

but are they really being "duped"?

No. They belong there. They want to be there. They are legion. They share a common purpose and it is dark.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Letfreedumbring »

FrankOne wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:18 pm a new thought on this subject: (for me anyway)

As the govt has lost credibility due to fraud and corruption, the church follows the same course.

Perhaps in the near future, those that are still devout blind followers of the Q15 will also be blind followers of the Govt. Those duped by the govt are also those duped by church authority. Same genre. Same family. One family. Each smiling stupidly. Groomed whirled citizens.

but are they really being "duped"?

No. They belong there. They want to be there. They are legion. They share a common purpose and it is dark.
Can't help people that do not want to be helped. These people may hide it but just really care about themselves. Mormonism just happens to be their brand of delusion.

Think about home or visiting teaching "programs" - what good does it actually do once you get away from all the warm fuzzy feelings? In many cases, it is done without a single thought of the person who is on the receiving end. This could include obnoxiously barging in for an appointment to tell a family how to live in their own home disregarding the parental roles in front of the children because the parents are doing it all wrong. Then after achieving this objective, one checks the task off the list and feels validated as a good person that is destined for salvation. It is the same as mentioned above - people blissfully ignorant of the repercussions of their actions.

No wonder the Church makes a good business at receiving money for people who don't want to have to deal with the unwashed masses described in the new testament. That is someone else's job!

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SJR3t2
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by SJR3t2 »

The are experiencing a truth crisis because it is much easier to know how they have changed their doctrines and how they contradict the BoM now.
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/lds/

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