Why should we excommunicate people?

[Jake]

In light of recent events with Kate Kelly, Rock Waterman, and John Dehlin, I have a sincere question, and I hope that the discussion will be based on doctrine and not tradition. Why should we excommunicate people from the Church? What sins, actions, circumstances, or beliefs are grounds for excommunication? I have read the handbook, so I hope we can move beyond that to the doctrinal and scriptural reasons to excommunicate someone.

As I read the scriptures, the only scripture I can find where Christ specifically instructs the Church to cast someone out is D&C 42:75, where He says that a man who leaves his wife for a mistress should be cast out (excommunicated). All other instances of "cast out" that I find in the scriptures have to do with those who are cast out of the kingdom of heaven for unrepented sin. They are not instructions on what we should do.

So what do you think? What doctrinal or scriptural grounds are there for casting out a member?

[Robert Sinclair]

Open and unrepentant rebellion against the commandments of God bring this about.

It has been so since the beginning of time as with the bright morning star Lucifer, son of the morning.

Who knows if he would but repent?

He is allowed to play in the vineyard until he is grounded for a thousand years.

So it is with excommunicated members. They are still allowed to come and visit.

And for a time allowed to change and repent. But when that great day comes when the good fruits and the wheat and the virgins that were wise are gathered up and taken into the celestial kingdom of God they will be cast into their own places as has been chosen by God.

Remember it is given unto them of their endless punishment.

However the extent of the height and the width is revealed to them.

It is not written that there never will be an end, only the words Endless and Everlasting that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men for good.

[DPeterson]

Moroni 6:7-8
7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

This is the other example I can think of. But I'm not sure where we got this strange idea that being kicked out facilitates and is required for repentance. The casting out only happens "if they repent not". That tells me that excommunication is not part of the repentance process, but only comes after one refuses to do it.

Also, why do we think that telling someone that has been disfellowshipped that when they come and meet with us they can't pray, or teach, or make comments in any classes? Just sit there quietly for a year and if you're a good boy you can play with us again. How is that going to help someone that is struggling? If they are struggling they need extra love and support, they need to be encouraged to pray, even within the group. Why not give them a teaching calling and pair them up with someone who is really strong spiritually and doctrinally?

I just don't understand why if you've been bad we take away privilege or tell you that we're kicking you out to make you better...that doesn't make any sense.

[Robert Sinclair]

It is well understood that if you have not the spirit you cannot teach. This is even for the faithful members.

[davedan]

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (New Testament, 1 Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 5)

This scripture is the basis for the worthiness requirements for baptism, temple attendance, and excommunication.

Excommunication roots out the wolves in sheep's clothing. Church stamdards creates a community of safety and trust and unity. Remember the purpose of Church is to provide wefare services and moral standards. This is "pure religion".

If you break moral standards and harm others than that is the jurisdiction of the State.

If you break moral standards and just harm yourself, or you spead false belief, (no civil law against belief) that is the jurisdiction of the Church to discipline.

If you imagine a Church that does not discipline, you miss what Church is all about: charity and virtue. (James 1:27) The fall of the US and the West is because Christian religions are no longer performing their duty to provide welfare or expect virtue.

[Jeremy]

What doctrinal or scriptural grounds are there for casting out a member?

A corporation can "cast out" anyone for any reason. Using doctrinal and scriptural grounds as a bases for corporate action has long sense been abandoned.

[DPeterson]

It is well understood that if you have not the spirit you cannot teach. This is even for the faithful members.

Who said anybody doesn't have the spirit?

[Jake]

Moroni 6:7-8
7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

This is the other example I can think of. But I'm not sure where we got this strange idea that being kicked out facilitates and is required for repentance. The casting out only happens "if they repent not". That tells me that excommunication is not part of the repentance process, but only comes after one refuses to do it.

Also, why do we think that telling someone that has been disfellowshipped that when they come and meet with us they can't pray, or teach, or make comments in any classes? Just sit there quietly for a year and if you're a good boy you can play with us again. How is that going to help someone that is struggling? If they are struggling they need extra love and support, they need to be encouraged to pray, even within the group. Why not give them a teaching calling and pair them up with someone who is really strong spiritually and doctrinally?

I just don't understand why if you've been bad we take away privilege or tell you that we're kicking you out to make you better...that doesn't make any sense.

This is an interesting quote from Moroni. Thanks for sharing.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would ask this question - when the transgressors were not numbered among the people of Christ, was this a religious shunning as we do in the church, or was this Christ stating that He would not recognize them as His people?

[rewcox]

D&C 64:12-13
12 And him that repenteth not of his sins, and confesseth them not, ye shall bring before the church, and do with him as the scripture saith unto you, either by commandment or by revelation.

13 And this ye shall do that God may be glorified—not because ye forgive not, having not compassion, but that ye may be justified in the eyes of the law, that ye may not offend him who is your lawgiver—

3 Nephi 18:31
31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.

Mosiah 26:36
36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.

[Jake]

Thanks for providing this scripture. It appears to me that in context, this scripture is advising people not to keep company with fornicators, idolators, drunkards, etc. This is interesting advice in light of the fact that the Savior Himself ministered to such people throughout His life. I think we also ought to remember that Paul's letter to the saints in Corinth was written to the people, not the leaders. His instructions are to them as individuals, not an instruction manual for how to run an institution.

I have also responded to some of your statements below:

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (New Testament, 1 Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 5)

This scripture is the basis for the worthiness requirements for baptism, temple attendance, and excommunication.
The scriptures establish the requirements for baptism as to be of age and to have repented. The additional "worthiness" requirements that the Church has imposed do not have a basis in scripture or revelation that I am aware of. Requirements for attending the temple and for excommunication (outside of what I provided above) are entirely the doing of men.

Excommunication roots out the wolves in sheep's clothing. Church stamdards creates a community of safety and trust and unity. Remember the purpose of Church is to provide wefare services and moral standards. This is "pure religion".
Actually, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27) Anything additional or contrary is the doctrines of men.

If you break moral standards and harm others than that is the jurisdiction of the State.
Actually, you have to break legal standards, not moral standards. There are plenty of immoral things that harm others that are perfectly legal.

If you break moral standards and just harm yourself, or you spead false belief, (no civil law against belief) that is the jurisdiction of the Church to dicipline.
That is a pretty wide net for the "jurisdiction" of the church. In actuality, the church can claim whatever jurisdiction it wants. The question is what does God require the church to do? I think that a revelation addressing the matter should be given. But that's just my opinion.

If you imagine a Church that does not discipline, you miss what Church is all about: charity and virtue.
I have never seen a more ironic statement in my life. Execution of law is the complete opposite of charity. Please note that I am not advocating that should never be Church discipline. But I do not agree with the idea that people who openly disagree with "church doctrine" should be punished, unless those disagreements are of the vein of Korihor (i.e. deny the atonement of Christ). Disagreeing about who should officiate in rituals or whether the Book of Mormon was a word for word translation ought not to be grounds for casting out.

[durangout]

It is well understood that if you have not the spirit you cannot teach. This is even for the faithful members.

Who said anybody doesn't have the spirit?

It is very easy for someone with His Spirit to tell which spirit dominates an individual.

[Gideon]

So what do you think? What doctrinal or scriptural grounds are there for casting out a member?

Now I say unto you, Go; and whosoever will not repent of his sins the same shall not be numbered among my people; and this shall be observed from this time forward.
(Mosiah 26:32)

It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
(1 Nephi 4:13)

People who fight against the church should voluntarily leave, but sometimes they don't. Allowing them to retain their membership is like putting a stamp of approval on their activities or doctrines. Ward and stake leaders have an obligation to protect the flock, even if it means resorting to excommunication.

[Jake]

People who fight against the church should voluntarily leave, but sometimes they don't. Allowing them to retain their membership is like putting a stamp of approval on their activities or doctrines. Ward and stake leaders have an obligation to protect the flock, even if it means resorting to excommunication.

What would you consider to be "fighting against the church?"

[DPeterson]

It is well understood that if you have not the spirit you cannot teach. This is even for the faithful members.

Who said anybody doesn't have the spirit?

It is very easy for someone with His Spirit to tell which spirit dominates an individual.

What I'm saying is someone who has struggled with something and has been disfellowshipped (I'm not talking apostasy which has been the recent subject) and is not allowed to pray, comment or teach at church. Robert said if you don't have the spirit you can't teach. But I'm asking who says they don't have the spirit? Just because they've struggled? Let's say they are really trying to do what they need to to repent, and suppose they were given a teaching calling and they diligently prayed and studied and prepared...who says they wouldn't have the spirit?

[jbalm]

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (New Testament, 1 Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 5)

This scripture is the basis for the worthiness requirements for baptism, temple attendance, and excommunication.

In my experience, the extortioners get a free pass by the church...as long as they tithe on what they extort.

True story.

[Rose Garden]

Doesn't most of Mosiah 26 answer this question?

6 For it came to pass that they did deceive many with their flattering words, who were in the church, and did cause them to commit many sins; therefore it became expedient that those who committed sin, that were in the church, should be admonished by the church.

7 And it came to pass that they were brought before the priests, and delivered up unto the priests by the teachers; and the priests brought them before Alma, who was the high priest.

8 Now king Mosiah had given Alma the authority over the church.

9 And it came to pass that Alma did not know concerning them; but there were many witnesses against them; yea, the people stood and testified of their iniquity in abundance.

10 Now there had not any such thing happened before in the church; therefore Alma was troubled in his spirit, and he caused that they should be brought before the king.

11 And he said unto the king: Behold, here are many whom we have brought before thee, who are accused of their brethren; yea, and they have been taken in divers iniquities. And they do not repent of their iniquities; therefore we have brought them before thee, that thou mayest judge them according to their crimes.

12 But king Mosiah said unto Alma: Behold, I judge them not; therefore I deliver them into thy hands to be judged.

13 And now the spirit of Alma was again troubled; and he went and inquired of the Lord what he should do concerning this matter, for he feared that he should do wrong in the sight of God.

14 And it came to pass that after he had poured out his whole soul to God, the voice of the Lord came to him, saying:

15 Blessed art thou, Alma, and blessed are they who were baptized in the waters of Mormon. Thou art blessed because of thy exceeding faith in the words alone of my servant Abinadi.

16 And blessed are they because of their exceeding faith in the words alone which thou hast spoken unto them.

17 And blessed art thou because thou hast established a church among this people; and they shall be established, and they shall be my people.

18 Yea, blessed is this people who are willing to bear my name; for in my name shall they be called; and they are mine.

19 And because thou hast inquired of me concerning the transgressor, thou art blessed.

20 Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep.

21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.

22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive.

23 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand.

24 For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.

25 And it shall come to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come forth and shall stand before me.

26 And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed.

27 And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.

30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

32 Now I say unto you, Go; and whosoever will not repent of his sins the same shall not be numbered among my people; and this shall be observed from this time forward.

33 And it came to pass when Alma had heard these words he wrote them down that he might have them, and that he might judge the people of that church according to the commandments of God.

34 And it came to pass that Alma went and judged those that had been taken in iniquity, according to the word of the Lord.

35 And whosoever repented of their sins and did confess them, them he did number among the people of the church;

36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.

37 And it came to pass that Alma did regulate all the affairs of the church; and they began again to have peace and to prosper exceedingly in the affairs of the church, walking circumspectly before God, receiving many, and baptizing many.

38 And now all these things did Alma and his fellow laborers do who were over the church, walking in all diligence, teaching the word of God in all things, suffering all manner of afflictions, being persecuted by all those who did not belong to the church of God.

[SkyBird]

There are predators in our mist that need to be ex"ed... no exceptions!

Example:

I know it must be somewhat difficult for you to receive direction from the Church concerning an excommunicated member of the Church (whom you know not) who has been a child molester to both male and female victims and now years later is seeking membership again.
This is why I am writing this letter, I was just going to send this letter to the Quorum of the 12 and First Presidency to share my concern. Perhaps it will make it to them if you feel so inclined, I hope it does… I will work with my file leaders first.

The once excommunicated member involved (xxx) is well known by me and my family. He was once a trusted person, not anymore! There are many victims, both male and female that I know who have undergone traumatic, emotional, physiological scaring and depression from what has taken place.

As I shared with you my personal feelings Sunday, I wish to put this down in letter form. I personally feel free from this man’s satanic abuse. Several years ago he called me and asked for forgiveness. I told him that I had forgiven him in my heart years ago and hold nothing against him. I told him I loved him as child of God and would be kind and thoughtful towards him but in this mortal world I could never “trust” him again with children, teens or adults of either sex.

I feel I have done what the Lord has asked and now it is up to (xxx) and the Lord (working on the other side of the veil) to make this right. I will never know (xxx) his “intent of heart” in this mortal world, only the Lord knows this! So for the “safety” of all children, teens and adults, I strongly feel in this mortal world, that (xxx) should never be brought back into the Church as a baptized member and especially receive the priesthood again in mortality. This is for his sake and especially the sake of all concerned… he simply cannot be trusted in mortality again. He has broken that “trust” and the oath and covenant of the priesthood (D&C 36-46).

Let me share my interpretation of how I feel the Lord would work with such people who struggle with this particular problem in mortality. This scripture to me is not meant to be read and understood literally but spiritually.

“And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.”
(New Testament | Mark 9:42)

“These little ones” who are “offended” (abused sexually) are many times scarred for life unless they know and learn how to free themselves through gospel principles. The Lord said “it is better for him (the abuser) that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea” … this is a spiritual metaphor to me, and it means that these known (abusers) within a church or in society should be counseled and excommunicated from any activity dealing with or teaching of children, teens or adults, and should never be found alone with them! Their “trust” has been broken… and we just do not know their “intent of heart” only God does! So God is telling us to leave it in His hands, He will take care of it on the other side of the veil… that is what it means to be “cast into the sea.” The Lord has warned the Church of such wolves:

“For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him.
And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you; and if you will hearken unto his voice he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed.”
(Book of Mormon | Alma 5:59 - 60)

To me, these “sexual predators” motives and acts is a sin worse than murder and is akin to denying the Holy Ghost, because of the emotional scars it leaves in its wake.

“For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.” (Book of Mormon | Alma 39:5 - 6)

President David O McKay said: “It is greater to be trusted than to be loved.” (xxx) has been placed in some sacred positions and has been a seminary teacher for years and held other trusted positions; he has repeatedly been a “wolf disguised in sheep’s clothing” amongst the flock and simply should not be trusted in this mortal world again… He has blatantly lied to Priesthood leaders for years, receiving temple recommends as a sexual predator, deceiving the very elect as it were… would you trust him to be alone with your child, grandchild, teen or any adult? He has blatantly dishonored the priesthood of God and broken the trust of the people.

I implore the Church to use the council the Lord has given to deal with such people for the sake of the flock of God. “And he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenour wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed” (Alma 5: 60).

People who have taken “wolves” as pets are always in danger of the wolf turning to its predator instincts given the opportunity. It is not a wise choice. There is only one person we are counseled to “trust” in this world and that is the Lord himself. “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” (Old Testament | Proverbs 3:5 - 6)

[Gideon]

People who fight against the church should voluntarily leave, but sometimes they don't. Allowing them to retain their membership is like putting a stamp of approval on their activities or doctrines. Ward and stake leaders have an obligation to protect the flock, even if it means resorting to excommunication.

What would you consider to be "fighting against the church?"

IMO, opposing the doctrines of the church publicly. Seeking to convert members of the church to a set of beliefs which are contrary to the scriptures or the official statements of the First Presidency and the Twelve. Publicly deriding the leaders of the church. Deliberately trying to hamper the efforts of the missionaries. Exposing the ordinances of the church to ridicule (like posting the Endowment ceremony on the Internet).

In short, opposing the doctrines and ordinances of the church and its efforts to spread the Gospel.

[Ratbag]

Well, here is one reason for excommunication...

...almost every man, every Elder, or member that has undertaken to study or practice law was in a very short time on the high road to apostasy and destruction; and every member of this Church who has undertaken to practice law as a profession has gone neck-and-heels to the Devil. (JD 6:160) =))

[Robert Sinclair]

As durangout stated it is easy for me to discern certain spirits. They come into me and take possession at times, one of them is the spirit of meanness, I have a hard time when another accompanies it called depair. These two spirits vex me at times and I wrestle inwardly and know it make take 40 days and nights of prayer and fasting to remove some of these spirits not of the Holy Ghost that enter into me. Woe unto me until such time. Of you that are free of these how blessed you are.

But having understood the words of Jesus Christ I know that which is not of him perfectly at times.

How I could use this sanctification and purification offered at the wedding feast of the Lamb of God. Though my sins be as scarlet that they be made as white as snow.

Who would of all that have sinned not want this gift offered of Jesus Christ to the house of Ephraim if they only will acknowledge their offence and seek his face.

I desire to be worthy of entrance to this wedding feast invitation, I hope to have on the garment of truth required.

[SkyBird]

As durangout stated it is easy for me to discern certain spirits. They come into me and take possession at times, one of them is the spirit of meanness, I have a hard time when another accompanies it called depair. These two spirits vex me at times and I wrestle inwardly and know it make take 40 days and nights of prayer and fasting to remove some of these spirits not of the Holy Ghost that enter into me. Woe unto me until such time. Of you that are free of these how blessed you are.

But having understood the words of Jesus Christ I know that which is not of him perfectly at times.

How I could use this sanctification and purification offered at the wedding feast of the Lamb of God. Though my sins be as scarlet that they be made as white as snow.

Who would of all that have sinned not want this gift offered of Jesus Christ to the house of Ephraim if they only will acknowledge their offence and seek his face.

I desire to be worthy of entrance to this wedding feast invitation, I hope to have on the garment of truth required.

We all must me tested and tried... we have all tasted the sins of Babylon to some degree or another. The question I ask myself often is, "What is being tested" and "What is being tried" ... it is something within me that's being tested and tried? The answer is always the same. My character is being tested and tried! That's it! Joseph Smith is right on the money...

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 p.345-346

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, -- I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
Here, then, is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me."

This is the reason for the "Church" ... a person can be baptized 100 times and endowed 1000 times and it proves he or she is bound to the "forms and structures" of mortality. There is one reason we are here and that is to "become" in attribute and character like God with or without organized religion... and without judgment!

[jbalm]

Well, here is one reason for excommunication...

...almost every man, every Elder, or member that has undertaken to study or practice law was in a very short time on the high road to apostasy and destruction; and every member of this Church who has undertaken to practice law as a profession has gone neck-and-heels to the Devil. (JD 6:160) =))

Um...Dallin Oaks...

[Robert Sinclair]

It is given to them of the house of Ephraim that have fed on wind and been unwise sons to acknowledge their offence. And to return and say "What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
Who is wise, and he shall understand these things?

[Louisianamama]

This is the other example I can think of. But I'm not sure where we got this strange idea that being kicked out facilitates and is required for repentance. The casting out only happens "if they repent not". That tells me that excommunication is not part of the repentance process, but only comes after one refuses to do it.

Also, why do we think that telling someone that has been disfellowshipped that when they come and meet with us they can't pray, or teach, or make comments in any classes? Just sit there quietly for a year and if you're a good boy you can play with us again. How is that going to help someone that is struggling? If they are struggling they need extra love and support, they need to be encouraged to pray, even within the group. Why not give them a teaching calling and pair them up with someone who is really strong spiritually and doctrinally?

I just don't understand why if you've been bad we take away privilege or tell you that we're kicking you out to make you better...that doesn't make any sense.

I totally agree!!! Fellowship!! Not shoulder turned away.

[Ratbag]

This is the other example I can think of. But I'm not sure where we got this strange idea that being kicked out facilitates and is required for repentance. The casting out only happens "if they repent not". That tells me that excommunication is not part of the repentance process, but only comes after one refuses to do it.

Also, why do we think that telling someone that has been disfellowshipped that when they come and meet with us they can't pray, or teach, or make comments in any classes? Just sit there quietly for a year and if you're a good boy you can play with us again. How is that going to help someone that is struggling? If they are struggling they need extra love and support, they need to be encouraged to pray, even within the group. Why not give them a teaching calling and pair them up with someone who is really strong spiritually and doctrinally?

I just don't understand why if you've been bad we take away privilege or tell you that we're kicking you out to make you better...that doesn't make any sense.

I totally agree!!! Fellowship!! Not shoulder turned away.

So, we should let those who would rebelliously spread false doctrine still be associated with the church? We should allow themselves to claim membership in spite of open rebellion after being warned that their views are contrary to revelation?

They can still attend church, but they should not have any of the blessings. It also protects the rebellious from sinning against the covenants they made at baptism and in the temple.