The Charge to the Twelve

[ajax]

Nice so far brlenox. However, you seem to be imputing ideas and opinions to the Lectures which just aren't in the text itself.

Of course the whole thing could be going straight over my head. I look forward to your conclusion and tying it back into the OP.

[creator]

..While others will, within a dispensation, stand in the presence of God, they will never testify as a lone witness but will always link to the power of the dispensational head's testimony of knowledge to validate their second witness. If these brethren of the church did not understand this profound pattern it is easy enough to lead the children astray by simply claiming with words to have stood in his presence and I am convinced that were they dishonest men they would readily do so....

I felt this is where you were headed.. and this is where I completely disagree. What you said here also is contrary to the charge given to the Twelve... They were told to testify to the world that they had seen God (i.e. "I have seen God"), not to testify to the world that Joseph Smith had seen God (i.e. "He saw God and I am a special witness of that")... sorry I believe this is where your argument falls apart. But I do appreciate many of your other thoughts on this topic. It seems that you are simply making an excuse for the failings of so many men to live up to that charge. I wish it weren't so. To backup my claim here is another witness to that fact - I am simply stating what he has witnessed to me:

This failure to realize all the blessings and powers of the Priesthood does not apply to the elders and lesser Priesthood only; but it applies to the higher quorums, and comes home to ourselves, who are Apostles of Jesus Christ. We are presented before the Church, and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, and we have received oftentimes the gift of prophecy and revelation, and have received many great and glorious gifts. But have we received the fullness of the blessings to which we are entitled? No, we have not. Who, among the Apostles have become seers, and enjoy all the gifts and powers pertaining to that calling? And those who are called to perform special missions in opening up dispensations of the Gospel to the children of men, as Joseph and others were called of the Lord, He endows more fully with these gifts; but this does not hinder others from enjoying similar gifts according to His promises, and according to our faithfulness. And I have thought the reason why we have not enjoyed these gifts more fully is, because we have not sought for them as diligently as we ought. I speak for one, I have not sought as diligently as I might have done. More than forty years have passed away since these promises were made. I have been blessed with some revelations and prophecies, and with dreams of things that have come to pass; but as to seeing things as a seer, and beholding heavenly things in open vision, I have not attained to these things. And who is to blame for this? Not the Lord; not brother Joseph—they are not to blame. And so it is with the promises made to you in your confirmations and endowments, and by the patriarchs, in your patriarchal blessings; we do not live up to our privileges as saints of God and elders of Israel; for though we receive many blessings that are promised to us, we do not receive them in their fullness, because we do not seek for them as diligently and faithfully as we should." (Orson Pratt, JD 25:145-146, http://jod.mrm.org/25/144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

[brlenox]

..While others will, within a dispensation, stand in the presence of God, they will never testify as a lone witness but will always link to the power of the dispensational head's testimony of knowledge to validate their second witness. If these brethren of the church did not understand this profound pattern it is easy enough to lead the children astray by simply claiming with words to have stood in his presence and I am convinced that were they dishonest men they would readily do so....

I felt this is where you were headed.. and this is where I completely disagree. What you said here also is contrary to the charge given to the Twelve... They were told to testify to the world that they had seen God (i.e. "I have seen God"), not to testify to the world that Joseph Smith had seen God (i.e. "He saw God and I am a special witness of that")... sorry I believe this is where your argument falls apart. But I do appreciate many of your other thoughts on this topic. It seems that you are simply making an excuse for the failings of so many men to live up to that charge. I wish it weren't so. To backup my claim here is another witness to that fact - I am simply stating what he has witnessed to me:

This failure to realize all the blessings and powers of the Priesthood does not apply to the elders and lesser Priesthood only; but it applies to the higher quorums, and comes home to ourselves, who are Apostles of Jesus Christ. We are presented before the Church, and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, and we have received oftentimes the gift of prophecy and revelation, and have received many great and glorious gifts. But have we received the fullness of the blessings to which we are entitled? No, we have not. Who, among the Apostles have become seers, and enjoy all the gifts and powers pertaining to that calling? And those who are called to perform special missions in opening up dispensations of the Gospel to the children of men, as Joseph and others were called of the Lord, He endows more fully with these gifts; but this does not hinder others from enjoying similar gifts according to His promises, and according to our faithfulness. And I have thought the reason why we have not enjoyed these gifts more fully is, because we have not sought for them as diligently as we ought. I speak for one, I have not sought as diligently as I might have done. More than forty years have passed away since these promises were made. I have been blessed with some revelations and prophecies, and with dreams of things that have come to pass; but as to seeing things as a seer, and beholding heavenly things in open vision, I have not attained to these things. And who is to blame for this? Not the Lord; not brother Joseph—they are not to blame. And so it is with the promises made to you in your confirmations and endowments, and by the patriarchs, in your patriarchal blessings; we do not live up to our privileges as saints of God and elders of Israel; for though we receive many blessings that are promised to us, we do not receive them in their fullness, because we do not seek for them as diligently and faithfully as we should." (Orson Pratt, JD 25:145-146, http://jod.mrm.org/25/144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

I've been around long enough that I am sure there is little question as to where I am heading. However, if you will bear with me just a couple more installments we will be able to reach the point that I knew could be the juncture of departure, however it is not the departure that I believe you expect it to be as there are no excuses for why they do not have these experiences but from my perspectives only confirmations that they do according to the pattern we are developing. Your Orson Pratt quote is wonderful and fit's right in with where we are going.

Hang on and we can at least complete the topic and discuss from a point of completion of the presentation of the principles. Then you can show me the points that you have sources that lead you in a different directions and we can speak intelligently to each others observations knowing what they are...

[brlenox]

Nice so far brlenox. However, you seem to be imputing ideas and opinions to the Lectures which just aren't in the text itself.

Of course the whole thing could be going straight over my head. I look forward to your conclusion and tying it back into the OP.

I have a couple of things that guide my efforts. I have sought from the Lord specifically that I be taught and understand things according to his understandings. I have no opinions on doctrine that I do not state as such, and I have told him that I have no interest in my perspective as it is literally worthless. Up until 5 or 6 years ago every time I learned something, I found it was material that confirmed more succinctly doctrines I already knew. I recognized Joseph's statement that if he shared all he had learned the members would turn against him and so I have asked that I understand the doctrines that I did not know in the manner in which Joseph did.

In that process I have spent almost 15 years studying the manner of "The Prophecy of the Jews" trying to glean the tools of how they would understand scripture. These tools we are told to seek and once grasped, coupled with the spirit open things up in wonderful ways. Thus one learns to look for the patterns of God and recognizes them with the same degree of understanding as if they had been explicitly stated which is what many prefer.

If you will give me an example of something I am implying to this narrative that you think is not supportable from sources then I can respond to that specifically and illustrate where I draw my conclusions from.

[brlenox]

One example where we can observe the culmination of the process of accepting the testimony of the Dispensational Head until one has their testimony of belief coverted to a testimony of knowledge is precisely defined in the Book of Ether chapter 3 where Moroni sums up the process of going from faith to knowledge and the significance of the experience:

Ether 3:19

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

The first two chapters of Ether are multiple testimonies of Ether's experiences based on his lesser testimonies of knowledge and his continued testimonies of belief. We do not discount Ether's observations in Ether 1 and 2 simply because he has not stood in the presence of his Savior we embrace them because, once again, they are teaching the actual lesson that one has many spiritually valid experiences before they stand in the presence of the Lord.

One other point that should be woven throughout my thoughts above is that the Holy Ghost initially has a role to confirm truth concerning the Father and the Son. After one is convinced then the role of the Holy Ghost can expand into revealing but first it can only confirm. However, the Holy Ghost can only confirm something that you have heard about. Maybe a teacher taught you the Gospel message and the words of the witnesses of the earlier dispensations, or you read the scriptures yourself and believed in the words of the witnesses, or some other way. This is observed in Romans:

Romans 10:17

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

One could expect that the first thing required before one can begin the journey of coming unto Christ is first to of somehow heard of his reality. The lectures on faith teach us that once a testimony of knowledge exists that give something for the Holy Ghost to work with to confirm to others to establish their testimonies of belief. Once one demonstrates that they are willing to believe in the claims of the witnesses which ultimately is that they have seen God and testify of him, then you can ask God and be strengthened to know with a greater sense of sureness that they are true witnesses and can be followed to guide you back into the presence of God. Of course this is not cognizantly recognized as what is occurring in our lives as we come unto Christ but is it not what is actually occurring? Even if we hear only the testimony of belief of our mom or the missionaries or whoever that testimony can always be traced back to a testimony of knowledge. Thus the Holy Ghost becomes one of the required witnesses to each individual. Now each individual enters in the same gate of believing on the dispensational head and their witness and can, if they choose, continue to learn from scripture, and the spirit and teachers etc until they reach the ultimate objective of being able to return to the presence of God from which we have been separated.

The point being that before truth can be confirmed it has to be truth that is established in a testimony of knowledge and not only a testimony of belief. This principle is well established in the Old Testament concerning the role of witnesses and what defines who can be an acceptable witness and upon what conditions. Thereafter as we progress we all will fall in various levels or degrees of testimony of belief until we possess a testimony of knowledge and then if it should be appropriate we must link our experience with usually less emphasis, to the testimony of the dispensational head with greater emphasis to reinforce the beginning of the process of the development of faith in the words of the Witness of Knowledge which is the path that all must follow to again enter into the presence of the Lord. This process, that some may perceive as a "hinting" mechanism, that maybe they have seen God really is simply a manner of legitimizing the testimonies and connecting them appropriately. Of course observations on the sacredness of the experience being a cause for careful exposure is also significant and is surely the predominate state for most. Where apostles are witnesses they can be more generally expressive but are still careful to reinforce the process in appropriate fashion as discussed.
Here is a precise Example from our recent General Conference April 2014 President Boyd K. Packer:

After all the years that I have lived and taught and served, after the millions of miles I have traveled around the world, with all that I have experienced, there is one great truth that I would share. That is my witness of the Savior Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! “For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).

Their words are my words.

I believe and I am sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and “by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24).

I bear my witness that the Savior lives. I know the Lord. I am His witness. I know of His great sacrifice and eternal love for all of Heavenly Father’s children. I bear my special witness in all humility but with absolute certainty, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. (Ensign April 2014, The Witness, PRESIDENT BOYD K. PACKER President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)

If we simply take Elder Packer at his word - "their words are my words" then we can see that he is including as his testimony the words "For I saw him". He is doing perfectly according to the concept of the dispensational head. By linking his testimony to the testimony of Joseph Smith his ceases to be a lone witness and becomes a from the mouth of two witnesses testimony. The order is most important. If someone should accept Elder Packers testimony but deny the testimony of the dispensational head then they would not be able to exercise faith in Jesus Christ sufficient for eternal life. In that fashion the efficacy of Elder Packers testimony is different for it is not he that has the ultimate word on who of this dispensation will be received of God. That alone is the role of the dispensational head - Joseph Smith. It is believing on the testimony of knowledge of the dispensational head that will bring others yet to stand in the presence of God, into his presence when they have with patience prepared for that day. That is not to say that others might attempt to circumvent the proper order of things and receive knowledge ahead of their state of proper preparation. We can all experience the tragedy of the lost 116 pages of the manuscript. Keep asking, fail to heed the cautions of the Lord and he states he will give that which we seek to our condemnation.

Boyd K. Packers testimony is simply one example of literally hundreds that one can find but the pattern is exceptionally consistent after the manner of this discussion. Note how President Packer provides a very subtle reference to Joseph Smith’s and Sidney’s experience and claims that their words are his words. “Their words end with the clear statement that they “saw him.” Elder Packer is for all intent and purposes claiming those words as his for the fact he feels they apply to his experience. However, He pins his experience surely to the testimony of the dispensational head and lets the standard of that witness surpass his own. As Elder McConkie might say’ “Such is the dispensation concept.”

[brlenox]

To tie the principles in my earlier posts back to the OP I'll start with this statement which was bolded:

You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off you doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?

Note Orson's reference to their indebtedness to other men for the evidence upon which they have been depending - exactly according to the dispensational head principles. Once this testimony is received from an experience where they will behold the Face of God, then "when the proper time arrives" they will share that testimony to the rejection of some and the receipt of others.

It is important to note that they will know when that proper time is, it is not a willy nilly anytime it suits my fancy declaration but we can presume that for many it will be a trial of their faith situation where they will desire to have his testimony shared in a particular way at a particular time according to their particular expectations which may or may not be according to the "proper time" of the Lord..

[Thomas]

It is a good thing the prophets didn't need so much preamble to make a point. There would have been no converts as everyone would have long ago lost interest and went home.

Jesus on the mount: After 14 days of telling the gathered masses he was going to tell them something, he discovered, they all had left.

[Robert Sinclair]

Brian,
This is an excellent choice to post. I had missed this many years ago when I read through the many volumes of Church History many years ago. I love to hear the truth in plainness that a child may understand and Oliver clearly states that it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God.
This is very plain that even a child can understand. The truth.
Bless you for posting this.

[brlenox]

..While others will, within a dispensation, stand in the presence of God, they will never testify as a lone witness but will always link to the power of the dispensational head's testimony of knowledge to validate their second witness. If these brethren of the church did not understand this profound pattern it is easy enough to lead the children astray by simply claiming with words to have stood in his presence and I am convinced that were they dishonest men they would readily do so....

I felt this is where you were headed.. and this is where I completely disagree. What you said here also is contrary to the charge given to the Twelve... They were told to testify to the world that they had seen God (i.e. "I have seen God"), not to testify to the world that Joseph Smith had seen God (i.e. "He saw God and I am a special witness of that")... sorry I believe this is where your argument falls apart. But I do appreciate many of your other thoughts on this topic. It seems that you are simply making an excuse for the failings of so many men to live up to that charge. I wish it weren't so. To backup my claim here is another witness to that fact - I am simply stating what he has witnessed to me:

At what point in your life did this expectation become predominate in your beliefs?

[Robert Sinclair]

I believe Oliver Cowdery's words are worthy of taking a very close look at prayerfully.

[deep water]

When you come to understand the true and full gospel of Christ, it will open up and the sophistries of man will disappear. By their fruits yea shall know them, will become clear as glass. You will come to understand that if their is only lip service to fruits, there are NO fruits. You will see that if the person in question is not living the most humble of lives, by observation. That they have become the servant of all, relying upon their own labor for their support, or engaged in proclaiming the Gospel without purse or script. That they have the High Priesthood. Those who have the High Priesthood will leave a trail of exercised works, or Gifts (healings, raising the dead, throwing out devils, blessing the blind to see, the deft to hear, walking on water, turning water to wine, speaking in tongues, receiving prophecy and revelations, ect, ect) behind them everywhere they go. In short, if you see a person walking as Christ walked, doing the things Christ did, then you can be sure that they are of Christ. However if you see a person doing what the Bible teaches us that the High Priest did that ruled over the church in the times of Jesus Christ, you can be sure that they are cut from the same cloth as those who conspired to kill the christ.

[Robert Sinclair]

Be in pain if must needs be as a woman that travails to give birth, have grace and mercy to them who are blind at present.

Labor to remove all your sins that you may be able to help others remove theirs.

Use wisdom and understanding and especially mercy and grace at this time.

Remember the words of Jesus Christ do unto others as you would have done to you.

[Dannyk]

Thanks brlenox for taking the time to explain what you meant. I too had an idea and general understanding of what it is that you might be suggesting, but it has been helpful to see how you define the words and terms, and how you apply those definitions to your understanding of the Gospel.

I appreciate what great effort you have made to understand the dealings of God. I too try to undergo the same effort. Even if I don't agree if full (though I do agree with most of what you said), I always learn...and that in and of itself is important to me.

I for one am happy to accept that someone like Boyd K Packer has had an experience with Deity which has given him knowledge. This is not the only conference he has suggested such a thing. He did so in the last conference as well I believe (it was the one where he added on to a poem he had been augmenting every 10 years).

In addition to being willing to accept a witness like his and others who have followed a dispensation head, even if it isn't extremely clearly worded (though to me he seemed fairly clear), I also know that having something that confirms the reality of Deity and confers knowledge, doesn't mean the knowledge has assumed a fulness yet.

It seems that though many over the years have had visions and experiences that have confirmed to them the reality of God, and allowed them to give witness, I know of very few if any who seem to have experienced the Fulness that Orson Pratt was lamenting we generally ignore. He had visions, revelations, and knowledge, but knew that he still lived below the privilege of an open vision of the heavens, of things from the beginning to the end, and of a full conveyance of God's blessings and presence. It may be that few or even many have received perfect knowledge "in that thing"...that thing could be any number of things - that the book of mormon is true, that Joseph was a prophet, that Jesus Christ lives because they've seen Him, that the Father lives. And though there faith might be "dormant in that thing", their knowledge is not yet perfect. They have not yet continued the climb up the latter as John, Moses, Enoch, Joseph, Isaiah, Nephi, Bro of Jared, etc. have done, and had all things revealed to them that God is willing to reveal to man and allow them to remain in the flesh.

I hope I never become slothful in seeking those things for myself. I hope I never judge harshly another because I perceive they have not yet had those things. I hope any and all of us commit to at least walking the path that leads to such a fulness, a perfect knowledge, and a tree of everlasting life.

Thanks again for all you added. Again, I learned much and benefitted from your study and knowledge.

[brlenox]

In addition to being willing to accept a witness like his and others who have followed a dispensation head, even if it isn't extremely clearly worded (though to me he seemed fairly clear), I also know that having something that confirms the reality of Deity and confers knowledge, doesn't mean the knowledge has assumed a fulness yet.

Thank you...

Your final statement in the paragraph above is brilliantly accurate.

[brlenox]

they had to initiate their faith based on another's testimony of knowledge and then establish a testimony of faith or belief which is developed bit by bit until they also had the same experience as the one who had the theophany, or appearance of deity unto them giving them a testimony of knowledge

brlenox, good points on testimony of faith vs a testimony of knowledge. This is one reason I find it unfortunate that there aren't more people who have actually seen Christ and can testify to the world that they have seen Him. There seem to be very few. Not even the modern Apostles are bearing this testimony that the original charge to the Twelve suggests they should be seeking and sharing. Such a testimony of knowledge is important in order for even more people to gain a testimony of faith or belief. I've actually been pondering this for myself a lot lately (in regards to what I can personally testify of and whether it is a testimony of knowledge, faith or belief). I think too often people get up and bear testimony that "I know..." when in fact they only have a hope, belief or faith in such things, not knowledge.

Also, one other question...is there any record where Orson Pratt declares his eyewitness of having been received into the Saviors presence that would confirm why you receive his testimony here as if he had?

[brlenox]

Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?

I also wonder if individuals have thoroughly thought through the only clear rehearsal of someone standing in the presence of Christ in this dispensation other than what is recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants in the case of Lorenzo Snow. We only have that story because in private he told it to his granddaughter. He never made a public announcement, he never discussed it in conference he never ever made any outright declaration ever to my knowledge. Yet I am betting that if I search it out ( and you know I will) I can find occasions where he followed the patterns of the reference to the testimony of the dispensational head as we have been discussing.

What are your thoughts on this particular situation?

[Robert Sinclair]

Lorenzo Snow did tell his grand daughter that he had seen Jesus Christ as many on this forum have also testified.

As Oliver Cowdrey and Jeremiah have testified as two witnesses that one must needs seek to meet with God in person that you may testify that you have met with God and this is what he has said..........

Herein lies the paradox or brain teaser.

How does one call the people to repentance without finding fault as Jesus said not to do.

By meeting with Jesus Christ himself face to face and having him tell you to so do, you can say Jesus Christ whom I have met with personally has said unto me to say unto you repent and I of myself have not asked this but Jesus Christ whom with I have met face to face has told me to tell you this. Therein you will have obeyed the commandment to not find fault you were just repeating what you yourself were told in person by Jesus Christ to tell everyone. And you will have this proof or testimony that you have seen him in person face to face as Enoch and Moses and Joseph Smith.

This way instead of saying I believe that you should repent because I believe in Jesus Christ;

You can say I know you should repent because I know Jesus Christ as I have met with him face to face as one man speaks with another.

So it has been written to so do and so it should be done seek the face of Jesus Christ that we may testify that we have seen him and know him and this is what he has said "Repent all ye and sanctify and purify your hearts and come unto me and be baptized with water and with fire from on high at my marriage supper that I have invited you to. Yea come all ye and work the works of righteousness and justice and be equal in your temporal things and bring my bride out of the closet, yes even my church clothed in this justice and equity and righteousness and I will meet with you and work with you as I have promised." or to quote something like unto that.

That was for example only as I have not yet talked with him in the flesh but I myself have seen him in the spirit and heard his voice saying;

"If he does the things I say, I will come and speak to him"

I believe that which I heard and saw was unto us all as has been written obey his voice and come unto him, yea seek his face.

I myself am in need of mighty prayer and fasting for I have read all his words given unto all and see what is required of those born into the house of Ephraim which I have been born into to abide by our calling and election to bring the people to Christ as Melchizedek and Enoch did.

Hope this helps a little.

[Thomas]

Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?

I also wonder if individuals have thoroughly thought through the only clear rehearsal of someone standing in the presence of Christ in this dispensation other than what is recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants in the case of Lorenzo Snow. We only have that story because in private he told it to his granddaughter. He never made a public announcement, he never discussed it in conference he never ever made any outright declaration ever to my knowledge. Yet I am betting that if I search it out ( and you know I will) I can find occasions where he followed the patterns of the reference to the testimony of the dispensational head as we have been discussing.

What are your thoughts on this particular situation?

Here is the problem with the Lorenzo Snow account:

You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

It doesn't say, once you have seen the face of God, tell no one but your granddaughter and make sure she keeps it secret for forty years after your death.

We seem to accept these kind of stories on face value, when they are quite suspect.

[shadow]

Boyd K. Packers testimony is simply one example of literally hundreds that one can find but the pattern is exceptionally consistent after the manner of this discussion. Note how President Packer provides a very subtle reference to Joseph Smith’s and Sidney’s experience and claims that their words are his words. “Their words end with the clear statement that they “saw him.” Elder Packer is for all intent and purposes claiming those words as his for the fact he feels they apply to his experience. However, He pins his experience surely to the testimony of the dispensational head and lets the standard of that witness surpass his own. As Elder McConkie might say’ “Such is the dispensation concept.”

Elder Christofferson's conference talk was similar too-

"And I believe the testimony of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon who, after many other testimonies, proclaimed the great witness of this last dispensation “that he lives! For we saw him.” Under the glance of His all-seeing eye, I stand myself as a witness that Jesus of Nazareth is the resurrected Redeemer, and I testify of all that follows from the fact of His Resurrection. May you receive the conviction and comfort of that same witness, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

[brlenox]

Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?

I also wonder if individuals have thoroughly thought through the only clear rehearsal of someone standing in the presence of Christ in this dispensation other than what is recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants in the case of Lorenzo Snow. We only have that story because in private he told it to his granddaughter. He never made a public announcement, he never discussed it in conference he never ever made any outright declaration ever to my knowledge. Yet I am betting that if I search it out ( and you know I will) I can find occasions where he followed the patterns of the reference to the testimony of the dispensational head as we have been discussing.

What are your thoughts on this particular situation?

Here is the problem with the Lorenzo Snow account:

You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

It doesn't say, once you have seen the face of God, tell no one but your granddaughter and make sure she keeps it secret for forty years after your death.

We seem to accept these kind of stories on face value, when they are quite suspect.

Perhaps, but do you wonder if Ella Jensen would have found it suspect?

[Thomas]

Brlenox wrote: Perhaps, but do you wonder if Ella Jensen would have found it suspect?

It really doesn't matter. It doesn't fit in with what Oliver Cowdery charged the twelve to do. Nor does your dispensation head explanation fit either. It quite plainly charges them to see God and testify, to the world, that they saw him.

You go to great lengths to explain away the obvious discrepancy. It is plain to see your mind is closed to any possibility other than the brethren are perfect. You ignore plain evidence to the contrary.

Mormonism was supposed to about truth. Now it seems it is about maintaining deception. Going to great lengths to avoid truth.

[brlenox]

they had to initiate their faith based on another's testimony of knowledge and then establish a testimony of faith or belief which is developed bit by bit until they also had the same experience as the one who had the theophany, or appearance of deity unto them giving them a testimony of knowledge

I've actually been pondering this for myself a lot lately (in regards to what I can personally testify of and whether it is a testimony of knowledge, faith or belief). I think too often people get up and bear testimony that "I know..." when in fact they only have a hope, belief or faith in such things, not knowledge.

Is it possible that we can have degrees of know? For instance Alma 32 as it discusses the process of faith converted to knowledge takes several points of faith and they become points of knowledge. Then one takes those points of knowledge and continues to build upon them to garner greater degrees of faith which proceeds to a higher point of knowledge. Finally it completes in what appears a final point of knowledge of partaking of the fruit of the tree of life. All along the way points of knowledge which are yet to become a fullness of knowledge but they are characterized as such in Alma's discourse?

[brlenox]

Brlenox wrote: Perhaps, but do you wonder if Ella Jensen would have found it suspect?

It really doesn't matter. It doesn't fit in with what Oliver Cowdery charged the twelve to do. Nor does your dispensation head explanation fit either. It quite plainly charges them to see God and testify, to the world, that they saw him.

You go to great lengths to explain away the obvious discrepancy. It is plain to see your mind is closed to any other possibility other than the brethren are perfect. You ignore plain evidence to the contrary.

Mormonism was supposed to about truth. Now it seems it is about maintaining deception. Going to great lengths to avoid truth.

I think you are being perhaps a bit to quick to disregard Ella Jensen. In times past you have played the "we don't got no miracles card" as evidence of the churches loss of authority. I suspect that many would consider it suspect that some would so easily cast off, perhaps the most miraculous of events, that of calling one back from the dead with authority. Perhaps some might consider that evidence of being closed minded and failing to recognize the obvious that no man who could do such a thing could lie of such an event as standing in the presence of Christ. There is some plain evidence here. One wonders why it is not seen.

As well the dispensational concepts...that was pure revelation. I had never considered the concepts prior to my efforts to memorize the Lectures on Faith. Thereafter, I searched out the witnesses of Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, President Packer, and Shadow reminds us of Elder Christofferson's same effort and there are literally hundreds of other who follow this same pattern through the years. Isn't it at least somewhat suspect in your mind that this pattern shows up over and over and over. Why would that be unless those who have had the experience understand what they are doing.

Now absolutely I would discourage anyone from simply taking my word on anything, however, when the true messengers of God speak to identical perspectives, I think it a bit unwise to disregard them.

[samizdat]

Boyd K. Packers testimony is simply one example of literally hundreds that one can find but the pattern is exceptionally consistent after the manner of this discussion. Note how President Packer provides a very subtle reference to Joseph Smith’s and Sidney’s experience and claims that their words are his words. “Their words end with the clear statement that they “saw him.” Elder Packer is for all intent and purposes claiming those words as his for the fact he feels they apply to his experience. However, He pins his experience surely to the testimony of the dispensational head and lets the standard of that witness surpass his own. As Elder McConkie might say’ “Such is the dispensation concept.”

Elder Christofferson's conference talk was similar too-

"And I believe the testimony of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon who, after many other testimonies, proclaimed the great witness of this last dispensation “that he lives! For we saw him.” Under the glance of His all-seeing eye, I stand myself as a witness that Jesus of Nazareth is the resurrected Redeemer, and I testify of all that follows from the fact of His Resurrection. May you receive the conviction and comfort of that same witness, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

Not as potent a witness as Elder Packer's but a witness nonetheless. An Apostle must be a special witness of His Resurrection.

[Robert Sinclair]

What is the difference between-
The eyes of our understanding were opened and we saw and testify that we saw him.

We know what we saw in our minds.

I have seen him in a vison.

I have dreamed a dream.

I have met him face to face and have spoken with him as one man speaketh to another.

Jeremiah testified that there was in chapter 23.

That in the latter days you would consider this perfectly.

But even if what is happening is true that has been discussed here should not mercy and grace and loving kindness be used to bring about an acknowledgement from the leaders of the house of Ephraim that the words of Micah and Hosea and Joel and Isaiah all are saying much the same thing? He will not meet with them face to face until such time as they return and keep the celestial law given? Are these things true or not?