The Charge to the Twelve

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The Charge to the Twelve

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I had read parts of the charge given to the Twelve by Oliver Cowdery before but just recently read the entire thing. It's got some amazing stuff in it... just had to share:

Source: History of the Church

The following charge was given to the Twelve by President Oliver Cowdery:—Dear Brethren—Previous to delivering the charge, I shall read a part of a revelation. It is known to you, that previous to the organization of this Church in 1830, the Lord gave revelations, or the Church could not have been organized. The people of this Church were weak in faith compared with the ancients. Those who embarked in this cause were desirous to know how the work was to be conducted. They read many things in the Book of Mormon concerning their duty, and the way the great work ought to be done; but the mind of men are so constructed that they will not believe, without a testimony of seeing or hearing. The Lord gave us a revelation that, in process of time, there should be twelve men chosen to preach His Gospel to Jew and Gentile. Our minds have been on a constant stretch, to find who these twelve were; when the time should come we could not tell; but we sought the Lord by fasting and prayer to have our lives prolonged to see this day, to see you, and to take a retrospect of the difficulties through which we have passed; but having seen the day, it becomes my duty to deliver to you a charge; and first, a few remarks respecting your ministry. You have many revelations put into your hands—revelation to make you acquainted with the nature of your mission; you will have difficulties by reason of your visiting all the nations of the world. You will need wisdom in a tenfold proportion to what you have ever had; you will have to combat all the prejudices of all nations.

He then read the revelation, and said: Have you desired this ministry with all our hearts? If you have desired it you are called of God, not of man, to go into the world.

He then read again, from the revelation, what the Lord said unto the Twelve. Brethren, you have had your duty presented in this revelation. You have been ordained to this holy Priesthood, you have received it from those who have the power and authority from an angel; you are to preach the Gospel to every nation. Should you in the least degree come short of your duty, great will be your condemnation; for the greater the calling the greater the transgression. I therefore warn you to cultivate great humility; for I know the pride of the human heart. Beware, lest the flatterers of the world lift you up; beware, lest your affections be captivated by worldly objects. Let your ministry be first. Remember, the souls of men are committed to your charge; and if you mind your calling, you shall always prosper.

You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?

With regard to superiority, I must make a few remarks. The ancient apostles sought to be great; but lest the seeds of discord be sown in this matter; understand particularly the voice of the Spirit on this occasion. God does not love you better or more than others. You are to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. Jacob, you know, wrestled till he had obtained. It was by fervent prayer and diligent search that you have obtained the testimony you are now able to bear. You are as one; you are equal in bearing the keys of the Kingdom to all nations. You are called to preach the Gospel of the Son of God to the nations of the earth; it is the will of your heavenly Father, that you proclaim His Gospel to the ends of the earth and the islands of the sea.

Be zealous to save souls. The soul of one man is as precious as the soul of another. You are to bear this message to those who consider themselves wise; and such may persecute you—they may seek your life. The adversary has always sought the life of the servants of God; you are therefore to be prepared at all times to make a sacrifice of your lives, should God require them in the advancement and building up of His cause. Murmur not at God. Be always prayerful; be always watchful. You will bear with me while I relieve the feelings of my heart. We shall not see another day like this; the time has fully come—the voice of the Spirit has come—to set these men apart.

You will see the time when you will desire to see such a day as this, and you will not see it. Every heart wishes you peace and prosperity, but the scene with you will inevitably change. Let no man take your bishopric, and beware that you lose not your crowns. It will require your whole souls, it will require courage like Enoch's.

The time is near when you will be in the midst of congregations who will gnash their teeth upon you. The Gospel must roll forth, and it will until it fills the whole earth. Did I say congregations would gnash their teeth at you? Yea, I say, nations will oppose you—you will be considered the worst of men. Be not discouraged at this. When God pours out His Spirit, the enemy will rage; but God, remember, is on your right hand, and on your left. A man, though he be considered the worst, has joy, who is conscious that he pleases God.

The lives of those who proclaim the true Gospel will be in danger; this has been the case ever since the days of righteous Abel. The same opposition has been manifest whenever man came forward to publish the Gospel. The time is coming when you will be considered the worst of men by many, and by some the best. The time is coming when you will be perfectly familiar with the things of God. This testimony will make those who do not believe your testimony, seek your lives; but there are whole nations who will receive your testimony. They will call you good men. Be not lifted up when ye are called good men. Remember you are young men, and ye shall be spared. I include the other three. Bear them in mind in your prayers—carry their cases to the throne of grace; although they are not present, yet you and they are equal. This appointment is calculated to create for you an affection for each other, stronger than death. You will travel to other nations; bear each other in mind. If one or more be cast into prisons, let the others pray for them, and deliver them by their prayers. Your lives shall be in great jeopardy; but the promise of God is, that you shall be delivered.

Remember, you are not to go to their nations till you receive your endowments. Tarry at Kirtland until you are endowed with power from on high. You need a fountain of wisdom, knowledge and intelligence such as you never had. Relative to the endowment, I make a remark or two, that there may be no mistake. The world cannot receive the things of God. He can endow you without worldly pomp or great parade. He can give you that wisdom, that intelligence, and that power, which characterized the ancient saints, and now characterizes the inhabitants of the upper world.

The greatness of your commission consists in this: you are to hold the keys of this ministry; your are to go to the nations afar off—nations that sit in darkness. The day is coming when the work of God must be done. Israel shall be gathered: the seed of Jacob shall be gathered from their long dispersion. There will be a feast to Israel, the elect of God. It is a sorrowful tale, but the Gospel must be preached, and God's ministers rejected: but where can Israel be found and receive your testimony, and not rejoice? Nowhere! The prophecies are full of great things that are to take place in the last days. After the elect are gathered out, destructions shall come on the inhabitants of the earth; all nations shall feel the wrath of God, after they have been warned by the Saints of the Most High. If you will not warn them, others will, and you will lose your crowns.

You must prepare your minds to bid a long farewell to Kirtland, even till the great day come. You will see what you never expected to see; you will need the mind of Enoch or Elijah, and the faith of the brother of Jared; you must be prepared to walk by faith, however appalling the prospect to human view; you, and each of you, should feel the force of the imperious mandate, Son, go labor in my vineyard, and cheerfully receive what comes; but in the end you will stand while others will fall. You have read in the revelation concerning ordination: Beware how you ordain, for all nations are not like this nation; they will willingly receive the ordinances at your hands to put you out of the way. There will be times when nothing but the angels of God can deliver you out of their hands.

We appeal to your intelligence, we appeal to your understanding, that we have so far discharged our duty to you. We consider it one of the greatest condescensions of our heavenly Father, in pointing you out to us; you will be stewards over this ministry; you have a work to do that no other men can do; you must proclaim the Gospel in its simplicity and purity; and we commend you to God and the word of His grace. You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore call upon Him in faith in mighty prayer till you prevail, for it is your duty and your privilege to bear such testimony for yourselves. We now exhort you to be faithful to fulfill your calling; there must be no lack here; you must fulfill in all things; and permit us to repeat, all nations have a claim on you; you are bound together as the Three Witnesses were; notwithstanding you can part and meet, and meet and part again, till your heads are silvered over with age.

He then took them separately by the hand, and said, "Do you with full purpose of heart take part in this ministry, to proclaim the Gospel with all diligence, with these your brethren, according to the tenor and intent of the charge you have received?" Each of them answered in the affirmative.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Brian thank you for this ray of light brought into a dark room. It must needs be in order for others to see that the scriptures held by the house of Ephraim and Israel are fulfilled every whit and are proven true that this light brought into a dark room by you manifest what is happening in this house of Ephraim. God knows his children and has placed them upon this earth in different families to show them he knows them. It is written in the scriptures held by the house of Ismael of Abraham that the scriptures held by the Jews and the Christians are true. This is delivered to them of the angel Gabriel who was sent by him who sits upon the throne and knows all. They are instructed no less than 99 times to "do good". And this light of Christ is also manifested in the Buddist and Hindu scriptures that a pure heart is that to seek to obtain. Now for those placed in the house of Ephraim in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are children of God that he loves and has blessed with abundant knowledge and witnesses of how to see him face to face. And he has given special invite to they of the house of Ephraim to come and bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness of all things in common by a feast of fat things prepared by the rich and learned the wise and noble among them and then come and meet the bridegroom face to face. Jesus Christ does not lie and now is the trial of their faith. Do they believe him that he will meet with them face to face? Do they desire to meet with him face to face? If so do as Moroni testified to Joseph Smith that was not yet but soon would be from the book of Acts that the commandments must be kept and from the book of Joel that the vineyard and pastures would be eaten up and laid waste of equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart of all things in common among them. Hearken ye old men who lead the church as Joel has testified and consider has this been in your day? Awake and atone and return to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ to be equal in your temporal things.Weep and rend your hearts and come with fasting and repenting and atoning for your wrongful doings. Bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart and come and meet the bridegroom even Jesus Christ face to face. You will be glad you did:)

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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BrianM wrote:Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?
Do you understand the doctrine of the "testimony of the dispensational head" as revealed in the Lectures on Faith?

And do you understand the Law of Witness'es and how it influences the law of the "testimony of the dispensational head"?

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Tell us in plainness about the doctrine of the testimonies of the dispensational head. What think ye? Tell us in plainness that a child may understand.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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brlenox wrote:
BrianM wrote:Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?
Do you understand the doctrine of the "testimony of the dispensational head" as revealed in the Lectures on Faith?

And do you understand the Law of Witness'es and how it influences the law of the "testimony of the dispensational head"?
Please enlighten me. Perhaps I do know, but not using the words you have used. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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brlenox
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Dannyk wrote:
brlenox wrote:
BrianM wrote:Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?
Do you understand the doctrine of the "testimony of the dispensational head" as revealed in the Lectures on Faith?

And do you understand the Law of Witness'es and how it influences the law of the "testimony of the dispensational head"?
Please enlighten me. Perhaps I do know, but not using the words you have used. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
What do you mean "not using the words you have used"?

Edit: Nevermind I see your meaning.
Last edited by brlenox on April 25th, 2014, 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Robert Sinclair wrote:Tell us in plainness about the doctrine of the testimonies of the dispensational head. What think ye? Tell us in plainness that a child may understand.

This is not a child's doctrine. It is a revealed doctrine. It will be in plainness such that you can ask and receive a confirmation.

As this is BrianM's thread I will await his confirmation of placing this information here.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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O that I were pure in heart but alas I myself am in need of great atonement and fasting and prayer for I have ever been a wicked man and not worthy of even posting these things. But I do have hope that by my desire to repent of my ungraceousness and drunkeness and carnal behavior to myself become worthy of his blessing. I am only a fellow servant and brother and have no authority given me other than my testimony of that which I have come to know and understand. I would that you would understand to speak in plainness that a child may understand is to speak so. If you have spoken with Jesus Christ face to face speak plainly and testify in a manner that a child may understand. As written in the scriptutes by Jeremiah " What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken? Speak in plainness that a child may understand. Have you seen the Lord face to face in the flesh as one man speaketh to another? Yes or no? And if so what hath the Lord spoken unto you? In the latter days ye shall consider this perfectly. So it has been written and so it shall be done.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Thank you for the post. From this I wonder then, that if modern apostles have seen God face to face then why do they not plainly testify of it as they should? Or have they not yet seen God face to face and we just assume they have?

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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brlenox wrote:
BrianM wrote:Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?
Do you understand the doctrine of the "testimony of the dispensational head" as revealed in the Lectures on Faith?
I am familiar with the Lectures on Faith and there is nothing in it called by that name specifically ("testimony of the dispensational head"), perhaps you could point out the specific statements from the Lectures on Faith that you are referring to.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think I might know what you are going to say about the "testimony of the dispensational head" (I've read how others describe this) but I'd like to see the statements you are referring to in the Lectures on Faith.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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BrianM wrote:
brlenox wrote:
BrianM wrote:Are any of you aware of published accounts of any of the twelve having seen God face to face?
Do you understand the doctrine of the "testimony of the dispensational head" as revealed in the Lectures on Faith?
I am familiar with the Lectures on Faith and it there is nothing in it called by that name specifically ("testimony of the dispensational head"), perhaps you could point out the specific statements from the Lectures on Faith that you are referring to.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think I might know what you are going to say about the "testimony of the dispensational head" (I've read how others describe this) but I'd like to see the statements you are referring to in the Lectures on Faith.
You are correct, there is no term in the Lectures on Faith "dispensational head". About 8 years ago I began a campaign of memorizing scriptures everyday. During that time I began memorizing the Lectures on Faith. Had it not been for the fact that I was repeating and reviewing the Lectures on Faith daily for a year or so, every word hundreds of times, I'm sure that, at least for me, I would not have received the understanding. I coined the term "testimony of the dispensational head" for my own personal writings. However, I do not teach anything publicly that I cannot fulfill the requirements of being able to cite witnesses that are qualified to act as such as to do so is to make one a liar based on Christ's own explanation of his witness. This is the primary reason that when I write about specific gospel topics I generally develop them completely so that the witnesses can have their say. Of us, none are required to accept our single witnesses however, when you can tie the witness to legitimate witnesses it strengthens the obligation to consider upon the words of the legitimate witnesses and validates your own. Subsequent to my learning of it I have found those authorized to teach these things in the writings of the prophets and in scripture.

As the Lectures on Faith do not teach this as a point of information but instead develop this concept over the entire set of lectures as one of the key points which defines the appropriate means for each individual to develop faith I will do the same as briefly but thoroughly as I am able. The Lectures develop this doctrine painstakingly line upon line with the end goal of teaching the appropriate means of being able to come into the presence of God as one develops their faith in appropriate fashion so as not to be deceived.

More thoughts to follow....
Last edited by brlenox on April 25th, 2014, 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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In the Lectures on Faith are found the fundamental standards of how God has established the processes by which men are to acquire the faith necessary to once again enter into the presence of God. The principle is woven throughout multiple chapters and mixed with much interspersed material and can be missed but the essence of it is advanced in the second lecture.

Basically that in the beginning Adam had knowledge of God by having stood in his presence. His was not a testimony of faith but a testimony of knowledge. The Lectures encapsulate this point in the following statement:
Lectures On Faith Lecture 2 pg 14

12 From the foregoing we learn man's situation at his first creation; the knowledge with which he was endowed, and the high and exalted station in which he was placed--lord, or governor of all things on earth, and at the same time enjoying communion and intercourse with his Maker, without a vail to separate between. We shall next proceed to examine the account given of his fall, and of his being driven out of the garden of Eden, and from the presence of the Lord.

18 Two important items are shown from the former quotations: First, After man was created, he was not left without intelligence, or understanding, to wander in darkness, and spend an existence in ignorance and doubt-on the great and important point which effected his happiness,--as to the real fact by whom he was created, or unto whom he was amenable for his conduct. God conversed with him face to face: in his presence he was permitted to stand, and from his own mouth he was permitted to receive instruction--he heard his voice, walked before him, and gazed upon his glory--while intelligence burst upon his understanding, and enabled him to give names to the vast assemblage of his Maker's works.

19 Secondly, we have seen, that, though man did transgress, his transgression did not deprive him of the previous knowledge with which he was endowed, relative to the existence and glory of his Creator;
Thereafter the text list the line of the prophets through the Old Testament, Seth,, Enos, Cainen, Mahalaleel, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, to Noah etc. and clearly makes the point that these believed because they first accepted Adam's testimony of knowledge. Several of these also had experiences with being in the presence of God, however, they had to get there by first having faith on the testimony of Adam who is the witness of knowledge.

This is the key point: they had to initiate their faith based on another's testimony of knowledge and then establish a testimony of faith or belief which is developed bit by bit until they also had the same experience as the one who had the theophany, or appearance of deity unto them giving them a testimony of knowledge. Of course this process is very familiar as the pattern established in Alma 32 which is a discourse covering the steps of advancement in faith until one partakes of the fruit of the tree of life and has knowledge. Of course a careful reading reveals that the final point of knowledge is the knowledge of the Son of God. Note these final verses:
Alma 32:40-42

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
Alma 32 is a treatise of one ultimate point of specific knowledge that all should be seeking to have. It takes one, step by step in the process of developing the "faith to knowledge" process until ultimately the final point of knowledge is to partake of the fruit of the tree of life or to be received into the presence of Jesus Christ. Note how careful the process is. Little points of faithful belief become greater points of faithful knowledge until finally the pinnacle of knowledge can be received in knowing Jesus Christ.

To be continued...............

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Not canon. Ignore. De-canonized for legitmate reasons by the Lord's anointed. Please stop preaching false doctrines. Follow the teachings of the current brethren only. Thank you.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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Brlenox I'm really appreciating your thoughts thus far. Thank you.

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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ajax wrote:Not canon. Ignore. De-canonized for legitmate reasons by the Lord's anointed. Please stop preaching false doctrines. Follow the teachings of the current brethren only. Thank you.
Ajax, I'll make a deal with you...(and you know this can be difficult for me)...I'll go to extreme lengths of self flagellation, head banging on the floor, intentionally slamming my hand in the car door, and pulling nose hairs to remind myself to not become the cynic, or the sarcastic, the jester or the clown during this thread. (I really have been working on this over all with a momentary lapse on the "Denver Snuffers latest talk available. Thoughts?" thread where the voice on the left shoulder won out... but it did make me laugh like unicorn...)

Still if you will hang with me on this I would appreciate it...

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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brlenox wrote:
ajax wrote:Not canon. Ignore. De-canonized for legitmate reasons by the Lord's anointed. Please stop preaching false doctrines. Follow the teachings of the current brethren only. Thank you.
Ajax, I'll make a deal with you...(and you know this can be difficult for me)...I'll go to extreme lengths of self flagellation, head banging on the floor, intentionally slamming my hand in the car door, and pulling nose hairs to remind myself to not become the cynic, or the sarcastic, the jester or the clown during this thread. (I really have been working on this over all with a momentary lapse on the "Denver Snuffers latest talk available. Thoughts?" thread where the voice on the left shoulder won out... but it did make me laugh like unicorn...)

Still if you will hang with me on this I would appreciate it...
Absolutely. I did thank your post above. And Bob is right and much less snarky than I.

But it is Friday, and I just couldn't contain myself. Deal.
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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ajax wrote:
brlenox wrote:
ajax wrote:Not canon. Ignore. De-canonized for legitmate reasons by the Lord's anointed. Please stop preaching false doctrines. Follow the teachings of the current brethren only. Thank you.
Ajax, I'll make a deal with you...(and you know this can be difficult for me)...I'll go to extreme lengths of self flagellation, head banging on the floor, intentionally slamming my hand in the car door, and pulling nose hairs to remind myself to not become the cynic, or the sarcastic, the jester or the clown during this thread. (I really have been working on this over all with a momentary lapse on the "Denver Snuffers latest talk available. Thoughts?" thread where the voice on the left shoulder won out... but it did make me laugh like unicorn...)

Still if you will hang with me on this I would appreciate it...
Absolutely. I did thank your post above. And Bob is right and much less snarky than I.

But it is Friday, and I just couldn't contain myself. Deal.
Thanks...it also gives me pause to realize that sometimes while I might not recognize how significant a point is to others I should retain this sense of urgent reverence in consideration of their reasonable perspectives.

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brlenox
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

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In pursuit of the Alma 32 process is where the Lectures on Faith lend an expansion of information to add to aspects of how it is we come into the presence of the Lord. This process of having an individual with a testimony of knowledge become the initial impetuous for others to believe on to initiate their testimonies of belief until those who are willing develop their own testimony of knowledge is a dependable and consistent template that all must follow.

This then becomes the pattern as each new dispensation is rolled out. There are 7 primary dispensations and each dispensation is opened in the same pattern. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith are the dispensational heads and each believes on the testimony of Adam and then receives the confirmation of that testimony and they then act as second witnesses that bears not a testimony of faith but instead a testimony of knowledge. Thus each dispensational head becomes a witness of knowledge as the opening measure of each dispensation. Bruce R. McConkie comments in this fashion:
You start out with the Lord Jesus, and then you have Adam and Noah. Thereafter come the dispensation heads. Then you come to the prophets, to apostles, to the elders of Israel, and to wise and good and sagacious men who have the spirit of light and understanding. Every dispensation head is a revealer of Christ for his day; every prophet is a witness of Christ; and every other prophet or apostle who comes is a reflection and an echo and an exponent of the dispensation head. All such come to echo to the world and to expound and unfold what God has revealed through the man who was appointed to give his eternal word to the world for that era. Such is the dispensation concept. (McConkie, Bruce R. This Generation Shall Have My Word through You.)
Thereafter the dispensational heads are given to their dispensation as actual witnesses (thus fulfilling the law of witnesses outlined in the Old Testament of being able to testify of that which they have clearly seen) According to the law of witnesses, in most instances, no one is obligated to accept the testimony of one witness and certainly not one who is not an actual witness to the facts of a matter. Thus this pattern is perfectly consistent as a means of opening a dispensation with witnesses to establish the principle upon which God claims he will always establish his truths:
Doctrine and Covenants 6:28

6:28 And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the keys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Thereafter once the dispensational head is in place, every person who comes unto Christ, in that dispensation and achieves the fullness of developed faith and enters into the presence of God, will do so by developing their faith in Christ on the testimony of the Witness of Knowledge - the dispensational head. However, when this occurs if they are guided to testify to it they will do so by alluding to their witness and legitimize it by linking it to the most important testimony of the dispensation - the Witness of Knowledge, the dispensational head.

This function of witnesses to the dispensational head is attested to by Elder McConkie:
That is how we rank and place the prophet Joseph Smith: he is one of the great dispensation heads, and a dispensation head is a revealer for his age and his period of the knowledge of Christ and of salvation. Thus, the other prophets of the dispensation who are associated with him and who come after him, who sustain his work and bear record of him, become witnesses that he—the chief prophet of their age—revealed the Lord Jesus and hence made salvation available. (McConkie, Bruce R., Joseph Smith: A Revealer of Christ, September 03, 1978, retrieved from http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=609" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

To be continued.....

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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

Post by creator »

they had to initiate their faith based on another's testimony of knowledge and then establish a testimony of faith or belief which is developed bit by bit until they also had the same experience as the one who had the theophany, or appearance of deity unto them giving them a testimony of knowledge
brlenox, good points on testimony of faith vs a testimony of knowledge. This is one reason I find it unfortunate that there aren't more people who have actually seen Christ and can testify to the world that they have seen Him. There seem to be very few. Not even the modern Apostles are bearing this testimony that the original charge to the Twelve suggests they should be seeking and sharing. Such a testimony of knowledge is important in order for even more people to gain a testimony of faith or belief. I've actually been pondering this for myself a lot lately (in regards to what I can personally testify of and whether it is a testimony of knowledge, faith or belief). I think too often people get up and bear testimony that "I know..." when in fact they only have a hope, belief or faith in such things, not knowledge.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

Post by Robert Sinclair »

This is plainness that a child may understand?
Yes or No?
Has the Lord spoken unto you face to face?
And what has the Lord spoken?
This you may consider perfectly in the latter days the prophet Jeremiah has testified.
Again I say unto you speak plainly that a child may understand and not with secret combinations that weave a spell of deception and deciet. Do you wish to pull the wool over ones eyes and not speak clearly the truth. If you have not spoken with Jesus Christ face to face but use phrases that lead people to believe things that you have when you in fact have not is wrong. To use apostolic witness or prophectic witness to lead people to believe you have spoken with Jesus Christ face to face when in fact you have not is not righteousness. Acknowledge as Hosea has testified that the Lord has hid his face from you and atone and return to keep the celestial law and seek his face. You will be glad you did:)

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brlenox
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

Post by brlenox »

BrianM wrote:
they had to initiate their faith based on another's testimony of knowledge and then establish a testimony of faith or belief which is developed bit by bit until they also had the same experience as the one who had the theophany, or appearance of deity unto them giving them a testimony of knowledge
brlenox, good points on testimony of faith vs a testimony of knowledge. This is one reason I find it unfortunate that there aren't more people who have actually seen Christ and can testify to the world that they have seen Him. There seem to be very few. Not even the modern Apostles are bearing this testimony that the original charge to the Twelve suggests they should be seeking and sharing. Such a testimony of knowledge is important in order for even more people to gain a testimony of faith or belief. I've actually been pondering this for myself a lot lately (in regards to what I can personally testify of and whether it is a testimony of knowledge, faith or belief). I think too often people get up and bear testimony that "I know..." when in fact they only have a hope, belief or faith in such things, not knowledge.
I'll continue to develop this but is it possible that sometimes in our efforts to look to the mark we may inadvertently look beyond the mark not recognizing precise patterns of how God operates. Keeping in mind that the development of faith itself is one of the paramount obligations of this existence explains why the leaders prepared this very formalized treatise to the School of the Prophets. If they would be prophets and act as prophets they must understand the proper manner in which all truly can become prophets.

Thus when we read of Brigham Young's observations in this type of verbiage:
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation,... no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true. (Brigham Young, October 9, 1859 Intelligence, Etc. Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.Reported by G. D. Watt Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91)
Brigham is actually expounding upon a core principle of the restoration and of the dispensational concept. This concept is also what the Lectures on Faith are developing and what the observations of Bruce R. McConkie are clarifying. While others will, within a dispensation, stand in the presence of God, they will never testify as a lone witness but will always link to the power of the dispensational head's testimony of knowledge to validate their second witness. If these brethren of the church did not understand this profound pattern it is easy enough to lead the children astray by simply claiming with words to have stood in his presence and I am convinced that were they dishonest men they would readily do so. However, the pattern, such as we will discuss later, of Elder Packers testimony in conference is to protect the dispensational heads testimony of knowledge as the premier testimony that must be accepted or men cannot return to the presence of God in this dispensation. It is also to protect those who follow the process of Alma 32, who let their testimonies of belief become greater and greater testimonies of personal revelation by degrees until Christ personally reveals himself.

I might come back to this topic later as there is a very powerful clue found in D & C 19 that bears a particular witness to this concept but now is not the right time to introduce it. We can also weave in the statement in the OP and find there is nothing that opposes this perspective but I need to go in small bites.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

brlenox wrote:
ajax wrote:Not canon. Ignore. De-canonized for legitmate reasons by the Lord's anointed. Please stop preaching false doctrines. Follow the teachings of the current brethren only. Thank you.
Ajax, I'll make a deal with you...(and you know this can be difficult for me)...I'll go to extreme lengths of self flagellation, head banging on the floor, intentionally slamming my hand in the car door, and pulling nose hairs to remind myself to not become the cynic, or the sarcastic, the jester or the clown during this thread. (I really have been working on this over all with a momentary lapse on the "Denver Snuffers latest talk available. Thoughts?" thread where the voice on the left shoulder won out... but it did make me laugh like unicorn...)

Still if you will hang with me on this I would appreciate it...
How about on other threads? ;)
Clearly :D

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

ajax wrote:And Bob is right and much less snarky than I.

But it is Friday, and I just couldn't contain myself. Deal.
ditto, and ditto.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: The Charge to the Twelve

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

#:-s Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'm reading.... :D

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