LDS Freedom Forum

I've been on a spiritual awakening for about two years now. It began when, during a rather average Sunday priesthood lesson, the spirit whispered something to my heart. The topic for the lesson included the Savior's parable of the lost sheep. I've heard that parable countless times, but this moment was profoundly different. The Spirit whispered: "You are THE lost sheep."

I was the one the Savior was searching and calling after. I had somehow always included myself in the ninety-and-nine that were safely with the fold. When I had heard the voice of the Lord telling me that I was lost, a wave of light and truth rushed through my soul. Although I was lost, I was also comforted because I had heard the voice of the Good Shepard calling after me. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:26. I believe at this time, I heard His voice. I desperately want Him to be my Shepard.

I have been trying to follow the voice of the Good Shepard since.

Here is a link to my blog: http://awaketozion.com/zion-snuffer-excommunications/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I seriously question your claim as to a “spiritual awakening” for the past two years. Do you remember Korihor, Nehor and Sherem? You remind me of them. You obviously do not have the gift of the discerning of spirits. I’m not one of the unquestioning sheep who take for truth everything told us by the church. I “test the spirits” as Joseph Smith counseled us to do. I test everything and I know the counsel from the Brethren is true. The spirits you are listening to are unclean spirits.

“No Latter-day Saint should be without this gift (discernment), because there is such a variety of spirits in the world which seek to deceive and lead astray.” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:198)

In his book, “Key to the Science of Theology,” Parley P. Pratt talked about unclean and fouls spirits. These spirits are not part of the third that were cast out of Heaven for rebellion along with Lucifer. These spirits are the disembodied spirits of wicked people who once lived on this earth. In particular, Elder Pratt talked about a specific unclean spirit of religion. This type of unclean spirit goes around deceiving people, literally possessing some of them and influencing others into believing false doctrine.

“…there are many religious spirits which are not of God, but which deceive those who have not the keys of Apostleship….” (Key to the Science of Theology, Pg. 111)

"A man must have the discerning of spirits… for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known;” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith, pg. 386)

“Every member in the restored Church of Christ could have this gift (discernment) if he willed to do so. He could not be deceived with the sophistries of the world. He could not be led astray by pseudo-prophets and subversive cults. Even the inexperienced would recognize false teachings, in a measure at least.” (Delbert L. Stapley, Conference Report, April 1950, pg. 162)

I read your blog and all you do is twist scripture to suit your beliefs. Satan does the same thing. Snuffer is nothing more than a modern day Nehor. :ymsick:

Thanks for your post. Your blog looks familiar...

I like the blog. If we will be judged according to the judgment we mete out, what becomes of a stake president that puts himself in the position of both accuser and judge? Does that mean he will be judged by his accuser when his judgment day comes? It is quite the corruption of his duty when he is to righteously judge and seek to understand the one he is judging and instead seeks only evidence against the accused.

Satan will be the accuser at the judgment day. I would not want to be judged by Satan. I want to be judged by a forgiving God who seeks to understand me.

Ratbag wrote:I seriously question your claim as to a “spiritual awakening” for the past two years. Do you remember Korihor, Nehor and Sherem? You remind me of them. You obviously do not have the gift of the discerning of spirits. I’m not one of the unquestioning sheep who take for truth everything told us by the church. I “test the spirits” as Joseph Smith counseled us to do. I test everything and I know the counsel from the Brethren is true. The spirits you are listening to are unclean spirits.

“No Latter-day Saint should be without this gift (discernment), because there is such a variety of spirits in the world which seek to deceive and lead astray.” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:198)

In his book, “Key to the Science of Theology,” Parley P. Pratt talked about unclean and fouls spirits. These spirits are not part of the third that were cast out of Heaven for rebellion along with Lucifer. These spirits are the disembodied spirits of wicked people who once lived on this earth. In particular, Elder Pratt talked about a specific unclean spirit of religion. This type of unclean spirit goes around deceiving people, literally possessing some of them and influencing others into believing false doctrine.

“…there are many religious spirits which are not of God, but which deceive those who have not the keys of Apostleship….” (Key to the Science of Theology, Pg. 111)

"A man must have the discerning of spirits… for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known;” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith, pg. 386)

“Every member in the restored Church of Christ could have this gift (discernment) if he willed to do so. He could not be deceived with the sophistries of the world. He could not be led astray by pseudo-prophets and subversive cults. Even the inexperienced would recognize false teachings, in a measure at least.” (Delbert L. Stapley, Conference Report, April 1950, pg. 162)

I read your blog and all you do is twist scripture to suit your beliefs. Satan does the same thing. Snuffer is nothing more than a modern day Nehor. :ymsick:

Maybe you should try reading the scriptures so that you may know the difference between what Nehor taught and what this blog says.

Ratbag wrote:You obviously do not have the gift of the discerning of spirits.

You are in no position to judge this.

I am characterizing the intent of Nehor, Korihor and Sherem with the blog. The intent, albeit unintended, is to deceive, just like Nehor, Korihor and Sherem attempted to do.

Jules:

Sure I am. He thinks the leaders of the church are leading us astray. I know they aren't. I read some of your blog, too. I can understand why you are defending this posting.

Ratbag wrote:I seriously question your claim as to a “spiritual awakening” for the past two years. Do you remember Korihor, Nehor and Sherem? You remind me of them. You obviously do not have the gift of the discerning of spirits. I’m not one of the unquestioning sheep who take for truth everything told us by the church. I “test the spirits” as Joseph Smith counseled us to do. I test everything and I know the counsel from the Brethren is true. The spirits you are listening to are unclean spirits.

“No Latter-day Saint should be without this gift (discernment), because there is such a variety of spirits in the world which seek to deceive and lead astray.” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:198)

In his book, “Key to the Science of Theology,” Parley P. Pratt talked about unclean and fouls spirits. These spirits are not part of the third that were cast out of Heaven for rebellion along with Lucifer. These spirits are the disembodied spirits of wicked people who once lived on this earth. In particular, Elder Pratt talked about a specific unclean spirit of religion. This type of unclean spirit goes around deceiving people, literally possessing some of them and influencing others into believing false doctrine.

“…there are many religious spirits which are not of God, but which deceive those who have not the keys of Apostleship….” (Key to the Science of Theology, Pg. 111)

"A man must have the discerning of spirits… for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known;” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith, pg. 386)

“Every member in the restored Church of Christ could have this gift (discernment) if he willed to do so. He could not be deceived with the sophistries of the world. He could not be led astray by pseudo-prophets and subversive cults. Even the inexperienced would recognize false teachings, in a measure at least.” (Delbert L. Stapley, Conference Report, April 1950, pg. 162)

I read your blog and all you do is twist scripture to suit your beliefs. Satan does the same thing. Snuffer is nothing more than a modern day Nehor. :ymsick:

I am open to the fact that I may be in error. Do you have specifics on which scriptures I am wresting to my own destruction? You compare Snuffer to Nehor, but I am unable to understand the connection. Nehor and his followers "did not believe in the repentance of their sins." Alma 15:15. From what I have read of Denver Snuffer, he does not teach this. Could you point me to some of his writings where he advocates this?

Ratbag wrote:I am characterizing the intent of Nehor, Korihor and Sherem with the blog. The intent, albeit unintended, is to deceive, just like Nehor, Korihor and Sherem attempted to do.

Jules:

Sure I am. He thinks the leaders of the church are leading us astray. I know they aren't. I read some of your blog, too. I can understand why you are defending this posting.

Interesting - you know the intent of this person's heart. I thought only the Lord knew that..... :-\

And based on your response to my previous comment, it seems that you DO feel that you are in a position to judge such things. @-)

Well as I said just before your reply, I am comparing him to Nehor, Sherem and Korihor by their intent, however unintended it may be, to deceive people. Nehor and company initially really didn't think they were deceiving anyone and neither does Snuffer. However, that doesn't matter; the fact remains, he is deceiving people and leading them astray, unintentional or not.

Moroni 7:16

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

I will stick to this scripture. Others will substitute brethren for Christ. Which one will be deceived?

Ratbag wrote:Well as I said just before your reply, I am comparing him to Nehor, Sherem and Korihor by their intent, however unintended it may be, to deceive people. Nehor and company initially really didn't think they were deceiving anyone and neither does Snuffer. However, that doesn't matter; the fact remains, he is deceiving people and leading them astray, unintentional or not.

In what way? Please cite specifics... :-\

Ratbag wrote:I am characterizing the intent of Nehor, Korihor and Sherem with the blog. The intent, albeit unintended, is to deceive, just like Nehor, Korihor and Sherem attempted to do.

Jules:

Sure I am. He thinks the leaders of the church are leading us astray. I know they aren't. I read some of your blog, too. I can understand why you are defending this posting.

I want the assurance of Eternal Life, and I don't think that I'm "looking beyond the mark" for this desire. No mortals or institutions can offer me the kind of assurance I am seeking for. Denver has renewed my hope that it is possible to connect to heaven. Is it a false hope? Maybe. I intend to find out.

My being "lost" had nothing to do with the LDS Church or its leaders--until Denver Snuffer was excommunicated. The biggest problem for me is: I don't know why he was excommunicated. That's one of the reasons I finally joined the discussion on this forum. How many others are concerned by Denver's excommunication? For me the concern is: am I at risk for excommunication if I think it is possible to connect to heaven?

I may not know the reason Denver Snuffer was excommunicated, but hopefully Denver's Stake President did. I do not accuse his Stake President of making the wrong decision. I do not know why he excommunicated him. Hopefully, it wasn't because he felt pressured by church headquarters. Can we all agree that this would have been an unrighteous judgment? The blog post was a voice of concern and a call to use righteous judgment when exercising authority over others.

Ratbag wrote:Well as I said just before your reply, I am comparing him to Nehor, Sherem and Korihor by their intent, however unintended it may be, to deceive people. Nehor and company initially really didn't think they were deceiving anyone and neither does Snuffer. However, that doesn't matter; the fact remains, he is deceiving people and leading them astray, unintentional or not.

Difference between Sherem and the servant Jacob. Jacob had seen God Sherem did not. That is the #1 difference. Jacob 7:4-7ish. If you read, 2 nephi 10 Nephi, Jacob

2 Nephi 10:2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him;

It is the duty of apostles and the president to testify they have seen Him, and if they wish to magnify and not fail in their duties, they must do so.

We have work to do, that no other man can do. You must proclaim the Gospel in its simplicity and purity. and we commend you to God and the word of his grace. You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that YOU MAY BE ABLE TO BEAR THIS TESTIMONY, THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THE FACE OF GOD. Therefore, call upon him in faith and mighty prayer, till you prevail, for it your DUTY and your privelege to bear such testimony for yourselves. We now exhort you to be FAITHFUL TO YOUR CALLING, there must be no lack here. You must fulfil in all things, and permit is us to repeat, all nations have a claim on you. You are bound together as the three wit nesses were. You, notwithstanding can part & meet & meet and part again till your heads are silvered o[v]er with age. (Joseph Smith Papers, Minute Book 1, 12 Feb. 1834, 27–29., here)

An interesting comment by Denver Snuffer. (Speaking of the lectures on faith and those who "decannonized" it)

From Denver's lecture 2 on faith in Idaho Falls:

" and so now we find ourselves having to choose. Its a healthy thing. You ought to have to choose. You ought to have your salvation at peril on how you choose. You ought to have to decide between whether you believe a man who stood in the presence of God, and bore testimony of what he saw, and what he felt, and what he heard, and others who constitute a committee that disagree with him. You should have to choose. And your eternal peril should hang in the balance as you make that choice. That is the perfect conundrum in my view. Grow up. Accept the burden. Find out. Learn about God. Or be damned by your carelessness, by your indifference, by your refusal to go forward. It ought to be so. And it ought to be put to you plainly. And you ought to have to choose. And you ought to have to choose every time you hear someone get up and offer something to you and conclude in the name of Jesus Christ. Because they are either offering you something from him that will save you, or they are offering something that they hope will damn you, because they are signing you up on the wrong team. It ought to be so. Everlastingly, it ought to be so.

Might I add Joseph fielding smith on this comittee testified he had not Seen Christ. IF keys allows the presidents of the church (even with their weaknesses) to damn an entire generation... than well...

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If you have a voice tell you "You ARE the lost sheep" .. the first thing you need to do is look at why it is telling you that, and discern who is telling you that..

on the one hand, if you are doing very well in church, then you need to ask yourself honestly, did "You are the lost sheep" refer to the fact that you are in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, following the commandments of the Lord?

if so, you are a fool to think that was something meant for your welfare

If it came to you while in Church, and the first thought was "Maybe I could improve and do better here", then I think it probably could have been a healthy personal revelation.

and if you look at your life and see things to improve, according to our church doctrine, then that may be it.

or, maybe it was a call to learn more.. discover and seek out some of the things which possibly havent yet been revealed, that you might be a more useful tool in bringing about the work of the Lord.. such as "If I am a member of the House of Israel, why then dont I find the Rest of the House of Israel wanting to return or be gathered"

or maybe you are perhaps clinging to incorrect doctrine, such as "I'm white and superior to others, and no white girls should ever date black people, and I guess i can tolerate the lesser black people if I must, but whatever.."

you may need to take stock of those things and beliefs in your life as well

they are widely held beliefs in the church.. yet none of those people will ever get excommunicated, because they are adept in working the secret combinations of twisting and distorting doctrine to make excuses for their evil and abominable racism, by feigning stupidity and clinging to what are obviously not Direct Revelations from God, and are contrary in every way to the Teachings of Jesus Christ

at any rate.. i think a lot more Mormons should hear the voice you heard.

and, it may just have been spoken so you've find this forum, and other places, to seek out and find other precious jewels of wisdom you need to know

Because to me

"You are the Lost Sheep"

refers directly to the White American Gentile who somehow believes he is more special than the black people, or the Chinese, or other races of people, simply because of the color of their skin, hair, or eyes..

because those black and other people are all the sheep of the Lord God of Israel, and all are called, equally, and are adopted into the Fold of Israel, as equals..

Israel is the Kingdom ALL gentiles of the earth must enter into ..

and all gentiles are merely that

gentiles

and most of them are all brought into the Fold of Israel through Joseph, via Ephraim or Manasseh.. black, white, brown, asian, whatever..

viewed equally, and equally not of Israel, in this, The House of Israel

for some strange, and incomprehensible reason, "white" american gentiles somehow believe they are a chosen people of God, superior to all others.

its not doctrine which makes them feel that way, but their interpretation of Doctrine and the workings of the Lord

I mean, talk about your gigantic egos..

give a gentile a crumb from the House of Israel and watch his head and ego inflate to a size that this entire earth can barely contain

I mean, no kidding.. it's like they actually believe that their heads are gigantic helium balloons that are supposed to translate this earth in the last days by pulling it out of its orbit and into another dimension

whist clinging to and clawing at the Fabric of Israel for their very existence

as if they are trying to climb over others to enter into Israel

which House shall not be Lifted.

so.. ya.. you ARE the lost sheep.. really does apply to you, no matter who it came from, at least in this regard.

American Gentile Mormons adopted into Israel all need to humble themselves, or they will not have much success in gathering together the Literal House of Israel from the Four Corners of the Earth to which they are scattered

I mean, literally no success at all

be thou therefore like unto a lost sheep, and seek out other lost sheep throughout the earth, and gather the Lord's sheep into Israel, even setting yourself last, behind them all.

If those of you who think the church is in error are serious, why not simply ask to have your names removed from the rolls of the church? This way your consciences will be clear. If you really believe that Mr. Snuffer is a prophet, then why not follow his example? He had the courage of his convictions to defy the First Presidency and paid the price for it. I seriously don't understand.

Ratbag wrote:If those of you who think the church is in error are serious, why not simply ask to have your names removed from the rolls of the church? This way your consciences will be clear. If you really believe that Mr. Snuffer is a prophet, then why not follow his example? He had the courage of his convictions to defy the First Presidency and paid the price for it. I seriously don't understand.

And there it is again.

What exactly are you talking about? Speak up laddy.. say it right out loudly for everyone to hear

You would like that, nay, need that.. threatens your whole little made-up world doesn't it

How about we ask to have YOUR names removed ? That's what needs to happen..

I'll just come right out and say it.. I think anyone who thinks black people being less than equal or any race of the earth being less than white American people is some sort of Doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, should be excommunicated without delay..

Little Brigham Boy..

You've built yourself up unto a web of lies perpetrated by evil men under the guise of being Mormon, but who are really just sad little pathetic racist boobs

And yes it is a deep, sickly, and wide-spread problem

Look at any of your posts above.. it's clear you have no power or authority.. and are just spouting off your little tired doofy tripe..

You don't belong in this church.. nor do you belong in Israel

And you know it

Ratbag wrote:If those of you who think the church is in error are serious, why not simply ask to have your names removed from the rolls of the church? This way your consciences will be clear. If you really believe that Mr. Snuffer is a prophet, then why not follow his example? He had the courage of his convictions to defy the First Presidency and paid the price for it. I seriously don't understand.

Those of you who do not like Obama should request to have your citizenship revoked and move the hell out of the country.

At least Snowden had the courage of his convictions to defy the president and paid the price for it. I mean seriously, I don't understand.

Thomas wrote:At least Snowden had the courage of his convictions to defy the president and paid the price for it. I mean seriously, I don't understand.

Snowden Revolucionar

And there it is again.

What exactly are you talking about? Speak up laddy.. say it right out loudly for everyone to hear

You would like that, nay, need that.. threatens your whole little made-up world doesn't it

How about we ask to have YOUR names removed ? That's what needs to happen..

I'll just come right out and say it.. I think anyone who thinks black people being less than equal or any race of the earth being less than white American people is some sort of Doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, should be excommunicated without delay..

Little Brigham Boy..

You've built yourself up unto a web of lies perpetrated by evil men under the guise of being Mormon, but who are really just sad little pathetic racist boobs

And yes it is a deep, sickly, and wide-spread problem

Look at any of your posts above.. it's clear you have no power or authority.. and are just spouting off your little tired doofy tripe..

You don't belong in this church.. nor do you belong in Israel

And you know it

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

In my research, I came across some interesting stuff that made me think of Mr. Snuffer. In his blogs and books, it’s very obvious that he thinks that Joseph Smith was the only inspired prophet of God. Everyone else from Brigham Young on down departed from Joseph’s pure teachings and now are in error. Based on the quote below and other things I’ve read, it is painfully obvious that Mr. Snuffer is picking and choosing what he wants to accept from Joseph Smith.

From the Prophet, Joseph Smith regarding revelation:

Revelation, Who Entitled to Receive—We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and giving sufficient proof of it. I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.—History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 338.

According to Mr. Snuffer’s own champion, Denver is wrong in calling the brethren to repentance. What he has received “through the Spirit” (what spirit did he receive it from?) was for his own questionable edification. He isn’t a prophet, but nothing more than a deceived, disgruntled, excommunicated member. I wonder which unclean spirit he was listening to?