LDS Freedom Forum

join the club, we are ALL lost sheep. some of us are loster than others. fortunately, we can all be forgiven for our sins. if you're getting less lost and more forgiven, you're doing well.
welcome to ldsff.

Ratbag wrote:If those of you who think the church is in error are serious, why not simply ask to have your names removed from the rolls of the church? This way your consciences will be clear. If you really believe that Mr. Snuffer is a prophet, then why not follow his example? He had the courage of his convictions to defy the First Presidency and paid the price for it. I seriously don't understand.

How exactly did he defy the first presidency? Because he didn't accept a payoff to violate the terms of a legal contract he was in with the publication of a book about history?

Ratbag wrote:In my research, I came across some interesting stuff that made me think of Mr. Snuffer. In his blogs and books, it’s very obvious that he thinks that Joseph Smith was the only inspired prophet of God. Everyone else from Brigham Young on down departed from Joseph’s pure teachings and now are in error. Based on the quote below and other things I’ve read, it is painfully obvious that Mr. Snuffer is picking and choosing what he wants to accept from Joseph Smith.

From the Prophet, Joseph Smith regarding revelation:

Revelation, Who Entitled to Receive—We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and giving sufficient proof of it. I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.—History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 338.

According to Mr. Snuffer’s own champion, Denver is wrong in calling the brethren to repentance. What he has received “through the Spirit” (what spirit did he receive it from?) was for his own questionable edification. He isn’t a prophet, but nothing more than a deceived, disgruntled, excommunicated member. I wonder which unclean spirit he was listening to?

I don't see how D. Snuffer has said/done anything contrary to this quote. Again, can you provide specific examples or quotes? How is he deceived or disgruntled? (Especially when he has supported and sustained his leaders, and still attends church..... :-\ .) What has he said (specifically) that you believe is contrary to the truth?

awaketozion wrote:I've been on a spiritual awakening for about two years now. It began when, during a rather average Sunday priesthood lesson, the spirit whispered something to my heart. The topic for the lesson included the Savior's parable of the lost sheep. I've heard that parable countless times, but this moment was profoundly different. The Spirit whispered: "You are THE lost sheep."

Here is a link to my blog: http://awaketozion.com/zion-snuffer-excommunications/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seemed to me when I started reading this thread with your post first, that you came to post this post to spread a message, more then to find an answer to any question.

So I will offer help to your problem, equal to your need... We should all chip in and buy you a sheep dog to help keep you on the straight and narrow, a dog whistle for when you feel threatened by an evil presence, and a collar in case you get lost again, so when found they will know where to return you. :ymdevil: =))

In all seriousness, let us look at the scripture you are referring too. It is found in Matthew 18:1, we read:

"1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, [in the Second Estate or Telestial Probation] ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven [Third Estate or Terrestrial Kingdom].
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child (the Messiah), the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven [like all Fifth Estate Beings or Messiahs].
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child [the Messiah] in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend [shed the blood of] one of these little ones [Fourth Estate Beings (Just Men made perfect in the Celestial Kingdom), who come down as messengers for God. Many will say "Little Child" is the same as "Little Ones", but look at 2 Chronicles 20:13 where it clearly defines them as being something different: 13 And all Judah stood before the LORD, with their little ones, their wives, and their children. Also see 2 Chronicles 31:18; Zechariah 13:1-9; Matthew 10:42; Mark 9:41-42; 3 Nephi 17:21-25] which believe in me [are those of them whom my Father has given me], it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea [water being likened unto a place where evil resides... it would be better that he were to die and be placed among the most evil of spirits].
7 Woe [meaning Covenant curse] unto the world because of offences [the shedding of the innocent blood of these Little Ones]! for it must needs be that offences [the shedding of the innocent blood of these Little Ones] come; but woe [Covenant curse] to that man by whom the offence [the shedding of the innocent blood of these Little Ones] cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire [these are allegories used here and are in similitude of other things, on a superficial level... God and mammon, poverty and wealth].
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire [In Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible, Joseph Smith revealed what the real meaning of the Messiah's allegory was. JST Matthew 18:9 "And a man's hand is his friend, and his foot, also; and a man's eye, are they of his own household." Also with this Sign of only one Eye verses two Eyes, one should look at another very similar allegory of one's connection to heaven verses following blind guides, see: Matthew 23:13-33; Helaman 13:22-29].
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven [a more clear translation would be...Be warned that you do not despise (hate or mistreat) not one of my Little Ones (Fourth Estate Beings), for THEIR Angels (their Father's and Mother's in heaven) are always before the Face of MY Father (having not the same Father but the Lord's Father who has all powerful!].
11 For the Son of man [Son Ahman, meaning "the Son of the Most High Man"] is come to save that which was lost [JST Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost, and to call sinners to repentance; but these little ones (Fourth Estate Beings) have no need of repentance, and I will save them. See also Doctrine and Covenants 50:40-42].
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? [Yes]
13 And if so be that he find it [reveals that He does not always find him], verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray [for this one will become a God! Only a tithe of a tithe, the holy portion will overcome this world one day].
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones [Fourth Estate Beings] should perish [though 99 out of a 100 shall be lost!].
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother [First Estate, Pre-existence].
16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established [Second Estate, Telestial World].
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church [The Church of the Firstborn, Third Estate, Terrestrial World]: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican [for only then may you give up on him (God's children) and let him (them) choose to fall (See also Doctrine and Covenants 42)].
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind [Covenant] on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose [Covenant break] on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask [Pray together in harmony], it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name [In Prayer!], there am I in the midst of them."
Matthew 18:1-20 [comments in brackets]

The Lord is revealing, with great care, that there are different statuses of Beings here in this world and that some have no need of repentance, as He will save them (as they eventually pay for their own sins PERSONALLY). And even though He will not lose one of those beings here in this world, He is also telling us that eventually He will lose OVER 99 percent of these "Little Ones." With this insight, we can see how few will make it unto Godhood. It will be the one who He loses, and then IF He is able to find him again, it will be this one Son that He is able to exalt. This one shall bring Him more joy than all the rest. This same principle is also revealed in the parable of the Prodigal Son. In a real life example found in the Scriptures, one might wonder the real end of King David (Solomon's Father).

The main point being revealed here is, when two or three of these Little Ones are "United in Prayer" and are in harmony, then the Lord shall come unto them, and whatever they shall ask shall be done by His Father. As we again look to the Scriptures regarding becoming as a "Little Child," we learn that after Christ was resurrected and visited the Americans, he said:

"22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved."
3 Nephi 9:22

"37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things."
3 Nephi 11:37

"38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."
3 Nephi 11:38

We find that when the resurrected Lord blessed the "little children" one by one, He begins His discourse to the Nephites by telling them (three times) that no one can approach Him except they repent and become as a "Little Child." For it is true that the nearest the "little children," [Second Estate Beings on earth], may approach the Lord is through Prayer. As for personally approaching the Lord, it is only the "Little Ones" [Fourth Estate Beings] who are commanded to come three times, to repent and be baptized (covenanting to be reborn) in His name. It was the Messiah who openly declared that one could not be saved, receive these things, nor inherit the kingdom of God unless they one Day become as a "Little Child." In other words, we are to become even as the Messiah was and is, the only begotten "Little Child".

Shalom

"Try to follow his voice"

Now that you have posted this it would be well of you to understand why it is written:


"My people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge"

"Their multitudes are dried up with thirst"


Have you a true desire to follow his voice?


Do a book report as any high school child could do.



Write down in your own thoughts every single thing that Jesus Christ has said to do and to be like and to know with his parables write the point he is laboring to make. Do this first with Matthew Mark Luke John and Third Nephi and the Stick of Ephraim or D&C. Then with the Old Testament, and the rest of the book of Mormon.



Keep this personal Book Report and read it through over and over and over and meditate therein day and night until you are completely baptized with his living water without even a toe sticking out.


Come to know "all" his words.


Then it shall be his voice that guides you perfectly:)


If you do this with real intent to know "all" his commandments you will find you are no longer lost.


You are no longer gone into captivity because you have set yourself free of the beast that was and is not and yet is because of ignorance.


You will no longer be ignorant but you will know perfectly what you should do and be like and know.
But this is not all.



You must give yourself to much prayer and fasting that you may have the spirit of revelation and prophecy and of God.



Do this and be glad:)♡



For you will be no longer lost but have found him and come to know him and see eye to eye with him.

"Try to follow his voice"

Now that you have posted this it would be well of you to understand why it is written:
"My people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge"

"Their multitudes are dried up with thirst"

Have you a true desire to follow his voice?

Do a book report as any high school child could do.

Write down in your own thoughts every single thing that Jesus Christ has said to do and to be like and to know with his parables write the point he is laboring to make. Do this first with Matthew Mark Luke John and Third Nephi and the Stick of Ephraim or D&C. Then with the Old Testament.

Keep this personal Book Report and read it through over and over and over and meditate therein day and night until you are completely baptized with his living water without even a toe sticking out.
Come to know all his words.
Then it shall be his voice that guides you perfectly:)

If you do this with real intent to know "all" his commandments you will find you are no longer lost.

You are no longer gone into captivity because you have set yourself free of the beast that was and is not and yet is because of ignorance.
You will no longer be ignorant but you will know perfectly what you should do and be like and know.
But this is not all.

You must give yourself to much prayer and fasting that you may have the spirit of revelation and prophesy and of God.

Do this and be glad:)♡


For you will be no longer lost but have found him and come to know him and see eye to eye with him.

Ratbag wrote: I seriously don't understand.

Then seriously read and understand the book of Isaiah. Seriosly read and understand Nephi and Mormon and Moroni. Seriously read and understand D&C. The covenant people of the latter days are making the same exact mistakes as the covenant people of ancient days.

In Moses day, all of God's covenant people, immediately after being freed from Egypt refused to ascend (all but 70) the mount and converse with the Lord face to face. They had the chance to build Zion. Instead they stood afar off. It was many generations before the appearance of their God in person. And to their condemnation.

In Joseph Smith's day, ditto. The saints didn't have to ascend a mount, but they did have to complete the construction of a temple. Same principle. Same symbolism. Now after many generations, operating under condemnation, the Lord is preparing to return again and set things straight.

Look to his posting about how power is vested-


"In the keys"



for today the house of Ephraim's leaders are bound by the words of Jesus Christ of:



"if"



Any well read student and doctor and administrator of the law knows the binding power of,




"if"



as has been spoken by Jesus Christ.

awaketozion wrote: The Spirit whispered: "You are THE lost sheep."

welcome to the club...

The Way to Discern:

While likening the scriptures unto myself (Moroni 7: 10-18), I had an insight or two come to my soul.

Study each and every time that Zion has been built on this earth. Each time it is a Community Affair. Thousands and even millions in the Zion Community are eventually exalted and go to the Celestial Kingdom. Christ saves and exalts on a huge scale. How is this possible? The Lord gives their leaders KEYs to the Priesthood and KEYs to unlock the gates to Zion. That's how they are able to establish and build Zion, because Jesus Christ gives them the KEYs to it.

People like Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion are only single individuals. They have no KEYs to any of this. They cannot establish or build Zion, because they do not have the KEYs necessary to unlock the door to it. They don't even have the Priesthood of God necessary to baptize someone into a Zion Community. They have no Saving Ordinances at this time to give you, and thus, they cannot save you or exalt you. Look to the Key Holders instead, if you truly want to be saved and exalted.

Look to the True Messengers of God, the ones who hold the KEYs, the authority, and the Priesthood of God. The True Messengers are authorized, and thus permitted, to speak in Christ's name because they hold the KEYs to it. Look to the LDS Missionaries (the True Messengers of God) for the Zion Community that you seek, because the LDS Missionaries have been duly authorized by the Key Holders to be Messengers of the Lord for the building of Zion.

At best, the only ones that Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion can save and bring into Zion is themselves and possibly their own personal family. That's it. That's all that they have KEYs to achieve. And, if they lack the Priesthood of God and have not been baptized into the LDS Church, then they don't even have the authority or rights necessary to bring themselves into Zion or a Zion Community. It can't be done without authorization and KEYs. They need permission from the Key Holders in order to establish and build any kind of Zion Community. Currently, neither Denver Snuffer nor Kingdom of Zion are baptized Latter-day Saints; so, currently they aren't authorized to go where the righteous and faithful Latter-day Saints are going. They will be going someplace else, unless they repent and receive the Saving Ordinances necessary to grant them entry into the Celestial Kingdom or a Zion Community.

At worst, people like Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion are wolves in sheep's clothing. They present scriptures mingled with the philosophies of men in order to cunningly deceive and lead away the Children of God. Notice that neither Denver Snuffer nor Kingdom of Zion have any kind of Church or Zion Community for you to join, because in the end, they have nothing to offer you of saving worth or value. They stand alone, and Zion is always a Community Affair.

So, what does this have to do with Moroni 7: 10-18? This is how you discern truth from error. Likening the scripture unto myself, I know that if a doctrine or teaching leads us away from baptism into the LDS Church, then it is not of God. If any teaching causes us to reject those who hold the KEYs for the building of Zion, the LDS Prophets and the LDS Apostles, then it is not from God. If any teaching makes us eager to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then it is not of God, but of the devil. If any teaching encourages us to stand alone or to be saved individually, then it is NOT of God and cannot be used to establish and build a Zion Community or a Celestial Community. If any teaching is contradictory to the Living Oracles of God, the LDS General Authorities, then it is not of God, no matter how wonderful it might sound. If the teachers such as Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion have nothing better to give you than what is already in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (modern-day Zion), then what they are teaching you is NOT from God. If the wolves in sheep's clothing keep telling you that the Key Holders, the LDS Apostles and LDS Prophets, are all apostate and wrong, then it is NOT from God that the wolves are getting that message. They got that revelation from a different source other than the Master Jesus Christ who holds all the KEYs to our salvation and exaltation, and loans those KEYs out to His Servants the LDS Prophets. The KEYs are the key to all of this.

Zion has already been established on the earth today. Jesus Christ established Zion through Joseph Smith in 1830 by giving Joseph Smith the KEYs necessary to establish Zion. Those KEYs for building Zion now reside with the LDS Prophets and the LDS Apostles. As Zion continues to be built, it is done through the guidance and authority of the Key Holders; and when they are done, it will be a whole community, millions, who will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Zion – not just Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion and a few of their followers.

Jesus Christ is a winner, not a loser. Billions will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, if they follow Christ's plan, join His LDS Church, receive His baptism in the LDS Church, and receive His Priesthood as found in the LDS Church, and remain true and faithful to His True Kingdom to the end. Billions will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom if we do it Christ's way. It will be a Community Affair and a World-wide Affair, and not some kind of individual affair like the wolves in sheep's clothing frequently suggest.

I have read some of Kingdom of Zion's posts, and the only kind of Zion that he envisions is one where he, Christ, Joseph Smith, and a few others are alone standing there in the Celestial Kingdom with their wives looking at each other wondering what to do for the rest of eternity. Under Kingdom of Zion's “plan” only a few of us are actually going to the Celestial Kingdom. There will be no City of Zion and it's not going to be any kind of Community Affair, if it is done the way that Kingdom of Zion envisions it. It's just going to be Kingdom of Zion and a few of his most favorite people. That's all that he plans on saving and exalting. So, beware.

When it comes to Denver Snuffer, he does not hold the KEYs for the establishing of a Zion Community or a Zion City, and he never did. In fact, he never claimed to hold such KEY's. If you want a Zion City, or a Zion Community, or a Celestial Kingdom, then look to the Key Holders to provide it and bring it to fruition. The KEYs are the key. Look to the Key Holders and help them to build Zion. If we do this, then you, your family, most of your neighbors, and even whole cities will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, the True Zion Community.

Yes Monson has been given the keys. These keys and powers are connected to the powers of heaven and must be used according to the word of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Of any other who would try to sell you the truth by books or lectures, go not after them.

But feel free to cry out and sound the alarm as God has said to do, through his prophet Joel. Whom Moroni told Joseph Smith three times coming back to repeat, so there could be no mistake, that Joel's words were soon to be fulfilled:)♡

Kingdom of Zion Limited:

LDS Freedom Forum member, Kingdom of Zion, stated:

“The Lord is revealing, with great care, that there are different statuses of Beings here in this world and that some have no need of repentance, as He will save them (as they eventually pay for their own sins PERSONALLY). And even though He will not lose one of those beings here in this world, He is also telling us that eventually He will lose OVER 99 percent of these 'Little Ones.' With this insight, we can see how few will make it unto Godhood. It will be the one who He loses, and then IF He is able to find him again, it will be this one Son that He is able to exalt. This one shall bring Him more joy than all the rest. This same principle is also revealed in the parable of the Prodigal Son. In a real life example found in the Scriptures, one might wonder the real end of King David (Solomon's Father).”

Take special note here to what Kingdom of Zion is telling you. I believe it to be the truth, and I believe that it reveals the truth. But, careful reading is called for.

When it comes to the Celestial Kingdom and the Kingdom of God, that the person Kingdom of Zion envisions for himself, there is no room for YOU. You are not going to be the one-tenth of one-percent who is going to make it into his Kingdom of Zion. It's not going to happen. You are NOT one of the “Little Ones” who make it unto Godhood. Get over it, it's not going to happen for you. You need not apply, because you wouldn't be welcome if you did. According to Kingdom of Zion, over 99 percent of the sheep spoken of in the parable are going to hell, and there is nothing they can do about it.

Kingdom of Zion has revealed to you a very special key here. Pay attention to it. Only Kingdom of Zion is this one Son that the Lord is going to be able to exalt. There will be no more here in the LDS Freedom Forum who will achieve this special privilege in Kingdom of Zion's Celestial Kingdom that he envisions for himself. That's just the way it is, and there is nothing you can do about it. If you weren't born as one of those who need no repentance or weren't born as one of the fraction of a percent that Christ can save, then according to Kingdom of Zion there is no hope for you in his Celestial Kingdom. You just as well look someplace else for your salvation.

Therefore, you don't have to worry or fret about it, because Kingdom of Zion has nothing substantial to offer you. He has no church for you to join and no Saving Ordinances or Priesthood to offer you. He has no Keys to unlock the door. Kingdom of Zion has nothing to give you that could save you or exalt you. In the Celestial Kingdom that he envisions for himself and his wife, only he and a few of his most favorite people will be there with him in the end. YOU won't be one of them. He is promoting Kingdom of Zion Limited, and what he is promoting doesn't apply to the rest of us. We are all going to be excluded from his plans, and there is nothing we can do about it. He is the only one in this whole forum who is going to be saved and exalted in his Kingdom of Zion. So get used to it.

“Oh look mom, the Emperor has no clothes. Kingdom of Zion has no Robes of the Holy Priesthood whatsoever. How did that happen?”

Meanwhile, I suggest that you take a look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In that Church, Jesus Christ has in place a plan to save and exalt millions and even billions of us to Godhood, and you can apply to participate in it any time you want, because it is free for the taking. The LDS Church is like the fruit on the Tree of Life, you can reach out and partake of it any time you want; and, it will save you and exalt you in the end. The LDS Ordinances, the LDS Covenants, and the LDS Priesthood will save and exalt you at the Judgment Day. Look into it. You are welcome to do so anytime.

To the Original Poster:

I, too, was hoping and praying that Denver Snuffer wouldn't be excommunicated. However, that was before I started to read some of the things that he wrote in his book, “Passing the Heavenly Gift”. In that book, Denver Snuffer took a turn and went down a different road other than the one he was traveling on before.

Of course, I can't speak for the Church. I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think you already have your answer, if you think about it long enough.

On your blog, you quoted the reason why Denver Snuffer was excommunicated. It was actually quite helpful to me, because I hadn't read it before.

President Truman Hunt of the Sandy Utah Crescent Stake stated: “In your effort to defend the restoration, you have mischaracterized doctrine, denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith, and placed the church in a negative light.”

Within the book, “Passing the Heavenly Gift”, Denver Snuffer became guilty of backbiting and evil-speaking of the Lord's Anointed Ones, which is something that Denver Snuffer covenanted not to do in the House of the Lord. Now, unfortunately, Denver (and the rest of us) is reaping the rewards of what he sowed. Breaking temple covenants, even simple silly ones like covenanting not to speak evil of the Lord's Anointed, can indeed get a person excommunicated from the LDS Church. That's the way it works. When somebody deliberately breaks one of the temple covenants, then that person is no longer truly a member of the LDS Church in his heart even if he is so on paper.

I, too, was all stirred up when they were threatening to excommunicate Denver Snuffer. Then, after reading parts of “Passing the Heavenly Gift” and reading some of Denver's most recent blog messages, I got all stirred up wondering why the LDS Church hadn't excommunicated him long before they actually did.

Denver converted me against his cause, where I was converted to his cause before.

I have covenanted with myself not to read any more messages on Denver Snuffer's blog, because all it does is stir me up; and, it's damaging to my serenity and spirituality. Reading Denver Snuffer's recent material no longer brings me closer to the Lord. It has an opposite effect, as the few who follow me on this forum know. For their sake and for my sanity, I have promised not to read Denver Snuffer's writings any more. I want to let the issue die, and then fade away into the sunset.

Hi

I am new to the site, I have been reading many of the threads for a long time now. The last 2 years I was struck with this urgency to prepare for the last days. I am quite paranoid about it, my kids tease me as whenever I go to the shop I always come back with a couple of storage items I don't have space to put it any-more so I am invading my kids bedrooms to put food under their beds. I grow my own veggies and dry it. I also can veggies and make jams/jellies.
I have read several books on near death experiences etc. Read Visions of Glory and others.
I have been a member for a long time and currently serve as a seminary teacher. I enjoy reading the threads and have gained some from reading it. Some

Welcome.

This is in response to MegaManToo post, where he is personally referring to me [KoZ or Kingdom Of ZION]... my response is colored for Discernment!

MegaManToo wrote:The Way to Discern:

While likening the scriptures unto myself (Moroni 7: 10-18), I had an insight or two come to my soul.

Study each and every time that Zion has been built on this earth. Each time it is a Community Affair. Thousands and even millions in the Zion Community are eventually exalted and go to the Celestial Kingdom. Christ saves and exalts on a huge scale. How is this possible? The Lord gives their leaders KEYs to the Priesthood and KEYs to unlock the gates to Zion. That's how they are able to establish and build Zion, because Jesus Christ gives them the KEYs to it.

People like Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion are only single individuals. They have no KEYs to any of this. They cannot establish or build Zion, because they do not have the KEYs necessary to unlock the door to it. They don't even have the Priesthood of God necessary to baptize someone into a Zion Community. They have no Saving Ordinances at this time to give you, and thus, they cannot save you or exalt you. Look to the Key Holders instead, if you truly want to be saved and exalted.

What KEYs did Moses have while living in Pharaoh's court? What KEYs did Joseph Smith have on his twelfth birthday? Whether I stand alone or have hundreds or thousands of people who embrace what I have taught does not prove anything! But as for your ignorant understanding of Priesthood, and who may or may not have such, I will bet you think you are just so special, that you think you can just walk up and down the isle in your ward, pointing out who does or does not have priesthood! As for Saving Ordinances, from your perspective, the Messiah would have needed to go to the Herod's Temple to receive such! Right? How much saving can apostate Key Holders and broken covenant people give you? A Caiaphas Baptism! How valuable would the Sanhedrin be in exalt you? They said all the correct words!

Look to the True Messengers of God, the ones who hold the KEYs, the authority, and the Priesthood of God. The True Messengers are authorized, and thus permitted, to speak in Christ's name because they hold the KEYs to it. Look to the LDS Missionaries (the True Messengers of God) for the Zion Community that you seek, because the LDS Missionaries have been duly authorized by the Key Holders to be Messengers of the Lord for the building of Zion.

You fell to even know what true Messengers are! They are always the original 3(4) who are sent down into new dispensations. True Messengers is not something you can hand down to somebody, that one can inherit or bless upon someone! And if you think there is a Zion Community here just because the Key Holders are here, and missionaries are out delivering the message to gather and build Zion. Or not to gather, as every stake IS Zion, then I think we should not discuss Zion, you and I! For I know it to be a thing that is presently not found upon the earth.

At best, the only ones that Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion can save and bring into Zion is themselves and possibly their own personal family. That's it. That's all that they have KEYs to achieve. And, if they lack the Priesthood of God and have not been baptized into the LDS Church, then they don't even have the authority or rights necessary to bring themselves into Zion or a Zion Community. It can't be done without authorization and KEYs. They need permission from the Key Holders in order to establish and build any kind of Zion Community. Currently, neither Denver Snuffer nor Kingdom of Zion are baptized Latter-day Saints; so, currently they aren't authorized to go where the righteous and faithful Latter-day Saints are going. They will be going someplace else, unless they repent and receive the Saving Ordinances necessary to grant them entry into the Celestial Kingdom or a Zion Community.

Sounds like you have received your Caiaphas Baptism, gone to Herod's Temple and the Sanhedrin have exalt you and sealed you theirs.

At worst, people like Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion are wolves in sheep's clothing. They present scriptures mingled with the philosophies of men in order to cunningly deceive and lead away the Children of God. Notice that neither Denver Snuffer nor Kingdom of Zion have any kind of Church or Zion Community for you to join, because in the end, they have nothing to offer you of saving worth or value. They stand alone, and Zion is always a Community Affair.

Maybe your under the false delusion that I have EVER claimed ZION is here, or that I have EVER tried to recruit anyone to join ANYTHING, a church, a group, a united order, or myself in anything! I have NOT and I request anyone who thinks I have to come forth and declare such!

So, what does this have to do with Moroni 7: 10-18? This is how you discern truth from error. Likening the scripture unto myself, I know that if a doctrine or teaching leads us away from baptism into the LDS Church, then it is not of God. If any teaching causes us to reject those who hold the KEYs for the building of Zion, the LDS Prophets and the LDS Apostles, then it is not from God. If any teaching makes us eager to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then it is not of God, but of the devil. If any teaching encourages us to stand alone or to be saved individually, then it is NOT of God and cannot be used to establish and build a Zion Community or a Celestial Community. If any teaching is contradictory to the Living Oracles of God, the LDS General Authorities, then it is not of God, no matter how wonderful it might sound. If the teachers such as Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion have nothing better to give you than what is already in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (modern-day Zion), then what they are teaching you is NOT from God. If the wolves in sheep's clothing keep telling you that the Key Holders, the LDS Apostles and LDS Prophets, are all apostate and wrong, then it is NOT from God that the wolves are getting that message. They got that revelation from a different source other than the Master Jesus Christ who holds all the KEYs to our salvation and exaltation, and loans those KEYs out to His Servants the LDS Prophets. The KEYs are the key to all of this.

I have read the Book of Mormon many times, and I did not see "LDS Church" in Moroni 7. I did not see "LDS Prophets and the LDS Apostles" either. It basically says, The Spirit of Christ enables men to know good from evil—Satan persuades men to deny Christ and do evil. What we have here is your own personal 8 commandments! And just for the record, I know the source of my revelations, and I do not say all LDS Apostles and Prophets are wrong, but I tell you of a truth, apostasy does reigns in the house of the Gentiles, from the lest to the greatest, and the days of their lessor priesthood and authority are numbered. Amon!

Zion has already been established on the earth today. Jesus Christ established Zion through Joseph Smith in 1830 by giving Joseph Smith the KEYs necessary to establish Zion. Those KEYs for building Zion now reside with the LDS Prophets and the LDS Apostles. As Zion continues to be built, it is done through the guidance and authority of the Key Holders; and when they are done, it will be a whole community, millions, who will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Zion – not just Denver Snuffer and Kingdom of Zion and a few of their followers.

I can be snide: to be derogatory or mocking in an indirect way. Fantastic, Salt Lake is becoming Zion and is getting closer by the day, its day of lift off is just around the corner. It's new Mall is one of it crowning jewels in it crown. Maybe everyone will get a gift card from Zion's Bank, to shop in the Mall. Boy all is well in Zion just as Mark E. Peterson said!

Jesus Christ is a winner, not a loser. Billions will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, if they follow Christ's plan, join His LDS Church, receive His baptism in the LDS Church, and receive His Priesthood as found in the LDS Church, and remain true and faithful to His True Kingdom to the end. Billions will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom if we do it Christ's way. It will be a Community Affair and a World-wide Affair, and not some kind of individual affair like the wolves in sheep's clothing frequently suggest.

The only thing you have said so far I wholeheartedly agree, "IF we do it Christ's way"! You sure got a problem with 'the masses are right and the poor individuals are all by themselves and wrong.' Well, you need to get a back marker for your scriptures, and darken out those verse that talk about 'many are called but FEW are chosen!'

I have read some of Kingdom of Zion's posts, and the only kind of Zion that he envisions is one where he, Christ, Joseph Smith, and a few others are alone standing there in the Celestial Kingdom with their wives looking at each other wondering what to do for the rest of eternity. Under Kingdom of Zion's “plan” only a few of us are actually going to the Celestial Kingdom. There will be no City of Zion and it's not going to be any kind of Community Affair, if it is done the way that Kingdom of Zion envisions it. It's just going to be Kingdom of Zion and a few of his most favorite people. That's all that he plans on saving and exalting. So, beware.

Really, you do not know the difference between the Zion that will fill the earth during the Millennial kingdom and the Celestial kingdom? I have quote the scriptures as to who will make it, those in the Lamb's book of Life. And you think it is going to ONLY be all the good LDS Members, their friends, and maybe whole communities, right? =))

When it comes to Denver Snuffer, he does not hold the KEYs for the establishing of a Zion Community or a Zion City, and he never did. In fact, he never claimed to hold such KEY's. If you want a Zion City, or a Zion Community, or a Celestial Kingdom, then look to the Key Holders to provide it and bring it to fruition. The KEYs are the key. Look to the Key Holders and help them to build Zion. If we do this, then you, your family, most of your neighbors, and even whole cities will be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, the True Zion Community.

Somebody needs to take that LDS kool-aid away from him, he has drunken to much of it for one night! :ymparty:

Again, I am responding to "MegaloManiaToo" post, comments colored in red...

MegaManToo wrote:Kingdom of Zion Limited:

LDS Freedom Forum member, Kingdom of Zion, stated:

“The Lord is revealing, with great care, that there are different statuses of Beings here in this world and that some have no need of repentance, as He will save them (as they eventually pay for their own sins PERSONALLY). And even though He will not lose one of those beings here in this world, He is also telling us that eventually He will lose OVER 99 percent of these 'Little Ones.' With this insight, we can see how few will make it unto Godhood. It will be the one who He loses, and then IF He is able to find him again, it will be this one Son that He is able to exalt. This one shall bring Him more joy than all the rest. This same principle is also revealed in the parable of the Prodigal Son. In a real life example found in the Scriptures, one might wonder the real end of King David (Solomon's Father).”

Take special note here to what Kingdom of Zion is telling you. I believe it to be the truth, and I believe that it reveals the truth. But, careful reading is called for.

When it comes to the Celestial Kingdom and the Kingdom of God, that the person Kingdom of Zion envisions for himself, there is no room for YOU. You are not going to be the one-tenth of one-percent who is going to make it into his Kingdom of Zion. It's not going to happen. You are NOT one of the “Little Ones” who make it unto Godhood. Get over it, it's not going to happen for you. You need not apply, because you wouldn't be welcome if you did. According to Kingdom of Zion, over 99 percent of the sheep spoken of in the parable are going to hell, and there is nothing they can do about it.

How childish can one person be? I express my belief has to how few are chosen! I did not select myself, I even expressed doubts as to the end disposition of King David. I guess MegalomManiaToo feels everyone is even less worthy than a murderer. I did not cast any judgments upon anyone, those who make it will do so by G_d's grace and it is He who will elect them. If I say it will be 1% and G_d says 'FEW there be', so what? Anyone with a sincere heart knows most of the world is going to hell, are we debating the two sides of the same coin here?

Kingdom of Zion has revealed to you a very special key here. Pay attention to it. Only Kingdom of Zion is this one Son that the Lord is going to be able to exalt. There will be no more here in the LDS Freedom Forum who will achieve this special privilege in Kingdom of Zion's Celestial Kingdom that he envisions for himself. That's just the way it is, and there is nothing you can do about it.

I quote or paraphrase the scriptures yet he believes not my witness. How can he turn 1% into .00000001%. Who here has read D&C 50:40-42?

40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.

41 Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me;

42 And none of them that my Father hath given me shall be lost.

I could quote a dozen more scriptures that say the very same thing. Either the Son is telling the truth or not!

If you weren't born as one of those who need no repentance or weren't born as one of the fraction of a percent that Christ can save, then according to Kingdom of Zion there is no hope for you in his Celestial Kingdom. You just as well look someplace else for your salvation.

You would make a real good attorney MM2! That is nothing like what I said... There are SOME. That does nor remove the addition of others from this world who are chosen. That is why those who were born with their C&E are here! To help administer unto them! Gospel 201. I guess MM2 you sleep through that class.

Therefore, you don't have to worry or fret about it, because Kingdom of Zion has nothing substantial to offer you. He has no church for you to join and no Saving Ordinances or Priesthood to offer you. He has no Keys to unlock the door. Kingdom of Zion has nothing to give you that could save you or exalt you. In the Celestial Kingdom that he envisions for himself and his wife, only he and a few of his most favorite people will be there with him in the end. YOU won't be one of them. He is promoting Kingdom of Zion Limited, and what he is promoting doesn't apply to the rest of us. We are all going to be excluded from his plans, and there is nothing we can do about it. He is the only one in this whole forum who is going to be saved and exalted in his Kingdom of Zion. So get used to it.

There is not one person in the LDS Church that can save you or exalt you! The Messiah said, the true shall make you free. Joseph Smith said, a man is only saved as fast as he obtains knowledge. YOU must save yourself, no one can do it for you! Not even G_d! If I bless others with truth and knowledge they are seeking, it is between them and G_d what they do with it. You so badly want the LDS to be the only ones selling tickets to heaven, and you are angry with me because I give them away. :ymsigh:

“Oh look mom, the Emperor has no clothes. Kingdom of Zion has no Robes of the Holy Priesthood whatsoever. How did that happen?”

(-| i-)

Meanwhile, I suggest that you take a look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In that Church, Jesus Christ has in place a plan to save and exalt millions and even billions of us to Godhood, and you can apply to participate in it any time you want, because it is free for the taking. The LDS Church is like the fruit on the Tree of Life, you can reach out and partake of it any time you want; and, it will save you and exalt you in the end. The LDS Ordinances, the LDS Covenants, and the LDS Priesthood will save and exalt you at the Judgment Day. Look into it. You are welcome to do so anytime.

I seem to remember that that fruit of the tree of life was removed that we might not partake of it and live forever in our sins! You said, "And, it will save you and exalt you in the end." Sounds like the words of that old serpent. Satan is speaking through you, and if you do not repent, he will one day seal you his! So much for your LDS Sealing in that day!

I really should not waste my time with such... you fill in the blank =;

Tenzen wrote:for some strange, and incomprehensible reason, "white" american gentiles somehow believe they are a chosen people of God, superior to all others.

I can see from your ignorance of "white peoples" feelings you are not one of them. You might want t actually be a person or have the ability to peer I to his soul Before claiming to Know his heart and feelings.

I am
Not even a tiny bit sorry for being white. I am proud of my heritage and my ancestors. I'm
Grateful for the opportunities that my linage had allowed me (but be assured I am and have always been poor so they are not luxurious ;) ). We need to stop feeling guilty for who we are or how we've been blessed. This is not what The Lord wants from us.
Having said that, I know that we are ALL precious in His sight and the richest whitest most educated famous or celebrated man is no more cherished by God than the smallest frailest weakest poorest blackest uneducated child/man/woman. So you see we "whites" do not all
Feel
WE are superior. Some
Of is wear hair clips instead of white pointy caps. Some of us love ad pray for our less fortunate brothers and sisters rather than hate them. Some
Of us know we are all
Equals and are delighted that this is so. I'm one of those people. It's a pleasure to meet you.

I will say for whoever it was that made you feel this way that I am
Sorry it happened. I'm
Srry at one point you felt
Condescended to. But remember we are all
Humans with weaknesses and defects. And just for the record, I was bullied in HS by a few black girls. I was a sweet shy girl
Who did not ask for trouble. They made my life very difficult and sad for a while. But I know they too are only
Human, have probably changed, and we're not cruel
To me because they were black, but rather because they were human. As are we all ;)