Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

[Daryl]

Elder Holland makes a claim about his certainty of keys in the last conference. I do not disagree with his belief. I simply wonder where he is coming from with his bold proclamation. I was hoping some of you could share your insights about this.

The Cost—and Blessings—of Discipleship - Elder J. R. Holland

I testify that the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ is on the earth and you are members of His true and living Church, trying to share it. I bear witness of that gospel and that Church, with a particular witness of restored priesthood keys which unlock the power and efficacy of saving ordinances. I am more certain that those keys have been restored and that those ordinances are once again available through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than I am certain I stand before you at this pulpit and you sit before me in this conference.

What witness does Elder Holland have?
Has he made a claim of witnessing something that gives him knowledge about these things?
What has he seen?
What is his particular witness of keys?
What keys is he claiming he has a witness of?
Is there a list of keys?
Why is he more certain of those keys than his and the audience existence?
What is to be gained to be more sure of those keys than his current reality?
Which keys are "those keys"?
Why the reference to him standing and them sitting?
Is there a symbol or type in that conjecture?
Do "pulpit" and "conference" indicate some hidden nuance we should discover?
Why was this portion of the talk backed with the most emotionally charged expression Elder Holland delivered during the talk?
What's going on here?

[A Random Phrase]

No one knows?

[Lizzy60]

This is on the public forum. I'm not speaking my mind on this. Nope. No way.

[shadow]

No one knows?

I think Elder Hollands statement is self explanatory. I know this just as assuredly as I type this with my fingers and you read them with your eyes.
No, there's no symbol or type in the use of my wording.

[Daryl]

What does that mean?

[andsmith0723]

He's an apostle and a special witness of Christ. I think it's pretty self explanatory as to HOW he's so certain. Just as he is certain that he is standing at the pulpit, so is certain that Christ stood before him.

[Curious Workman]

I guess I didn't read as much into it as some people did. I thought it was simply another way of saying, "I am absolutely certain about this." There is the suggestion that Elder Holland was saying in a roundabout way that we may assume his "special witness" of Christ is based on a literal, physical visitation, and this is the source of his being as certain regarding the issue of priesthood keys as he is of the physical reality before his eyes. Now that I think about it, that's possible, but I didn't catch that at the time. Interested in hearing what others say about this.

I'm new here, BTW, but haven't actually introduced myself yet. Lurker for a few months, recent convert. Happy Easter to all!

[therockpile]

My witness of the validity of the priesthood is from when I have received a stream of revelation for someone. The experience is literally to act as a mouthpiece for the Lord. Such a spiritually deep experience is more real than physical ones. I could say the same of any reviltory experience. This stems from the fact that we are primarily spiritual beings.

[TZONE]

My witness of the validity of the priesthood is from when I have received a stream of revelation for someone. The experience is literally to act as a mouthpiece for the Lord. Such a spiritually deep experience is more real than physical ones. I could say the same of any reviltory experience. This stems from the fact that we are primarily spiritual beings.

A stream of revelation does not mean anything regarding "priesthood keys". There are many (non lds) who have such experiences. Just saying, we shouldn't base our testimonies off of this. The spirit is often stronger in non-denominational church's than they are in our recent "EQ" lessons on how righteous we are while those around us perish. (No joke).

[A Random Phrase]

Such a spiritually deep experience is more real than physical ones. I could say the same of any reviltory experience. This stems from the fact that we are primarily spiritual beings.

I can understand this. The Holy Ghost reveals information to us as if we had no bodies, said JS. And the Holy Ghost talks to us by pouring pure knowledge into us. Sometimes it is unmistakable and sometimes it is not so easy to figure out.

[BroJones]

Elder Holland makes a claim about his certainty of keys in the last conference. I do not disagree with his belief. I simply wonder where he is coming from with his bold proclamation. I was hoping some of you could share your insights about this.

The Cost—and Blessings—of Discipleship - Elder J. R. Holland

I testify that the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ is on the earth and you are members of His true and living Church, trying to share it. I bear witness of that gospel and that Church, with a particular witness of restored priesthood keys which unlock the power and efficacy of saving ordinances. I am more certain that those keys have been restored and that those ordinances are once again available through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than I am certain I stand before you at this pulpit and you sit before me in this conference.

....
What's going on here?

In recent Gen Conferences, members of the 15 have re-emphasized that indeed the sealing power has been restored to the earth, and that D&C 110 actually occurred. In particular, the keys for sealing families together, in temples, has been restored (by the coming of Elijah in the Kirtland Temple) and exists within the Church. (See for example recent talks by Elder Bednar and President Eyring.)

I give it as my opinion fwiw that these strong assurances seek to neutralize teachings of those who challenge the validity of D&C 110. Is Denver Snuffer one of these?

Check whether the references accompanying Elder Holland's talk refer to D&C 110.

[Robert Sinclair]

Keys are things that open things or used to turn things on or off. One simple key is equity, another a pure heart, another is faith,hope and charity. Righteousness and justice are other keys. Knowledge will remove the beast of ignorance from before your eyes, a beast that was because of ignorance, but is not with knowledge, and yet is because of unbelief and lack of knowledge and intelligence. Find these keys and as priesthood leaders use them to remove oppression and lift the fallen.

[keep the faith]

Elder Holland makes a claim about his certainty of keys in the last conference. I do not disagree with his belief. I simply wonder where he is coming from with his bold proclamation. I was hoping some of you could share your insights about this.

The Cost—and Blessings—of Discipleship - Elder J. R. Holland

I testify that the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ is on the earth and you are members of His true and living Church, trying to share it. I bear witness of that gospel and that Church, with a particular witness of restored priesthood keys which unlock the power and efficacy of saving ordinances. I am more certain that those keys have been restored and that those ordinances are once again available through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than I am certain I stand before you at this pulpit and you sit before me in this conference.

....
What's going on here?

In recent Gen Conferences, members of the 15 have re-emphasized that indeed the sealing power has been restored to the earth, and that D&C 110 actually occurred. In particular, the keys for sealing families together, in temples, has been restored (by the coming of Elijah in the Kirtland Temple) and exists within the Church. (See for example recent talks by Elder Bednar and President Eyring.)

I give it as my opinion fwiw that these strong assurances seek to neutralize teachings of those who challenge the validity of D&C 110. Is Denver Snuffer one of these?

Check whether the references accompanying Elder Holland's talk refer to D&C 110.

You are very perceptive here Steve. Those special witnesses of Christ are teaching truths needed by the faithful in these last days prior to the great upheavals that will occur. One such important truth is the blessings that come as a result of the restoration of those keys of the sealing powers that are found within the church today. Those like Denver Snuffer do a great dis-service by placing doubts in the hearts of some that this has occurred.

The old saying one cant see the forest for the trees applies here in this thread. Those like Daryl get bogged down unable to see what Elder Holland is really trying to teach the Saints. True discipleship will cause many to experience great persecutions and abuse as they stand for truth and righteousness. Those consecrated souls will go through a refiners fire as they defend the truths of the gospel before a wicked and perverse generation. There will be a cost to such discipleship.

However as Elder Holland so beautifully stated that cost will be more than offset by the wonderful blessings given to those who stand firm and true to the faith. His last paragraph summed it up beautifully where he said:

"Be strong. Live the gospel faithfully even if others around you don’t live it at all. Defend your beliefs with courtesy and with compassion, but defend them. A long history of inspired voices, including those you will hear in this conference and the voice you just heard in the person of President Thomas S. Monson, point you toward the path of Christian discipleship. It is a strait path, and it is a narrow path without a great deal of latitude at some points, but it can be thrillingly and successfully traveled, “with … steadfastness in Christ, … a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men.”19 In courageously pursuing such a course, you will forge unshakable faith, you will find safety against ill winds that blow, even shafts in the whirlwind, and you will feel the rock-like strength of our Redeemer, upon whom if you build your unflagging discipleship, you cannot fall.20 In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen."

What a glorious promise from a special witness of Christ. It IS all worth all the sacrifice and trials experienced along the way. The Lord will honor those who do not back down from the battle for the souls of mankind. That is the good news of the gospel of Christ. It will require great courage but its rewards will be exponential in value.

I think Elder Holland is telling us that we are entering the final turn and the finish line is in sight. Satan will use every method available to him to throw us off the path and get us distracted or abused as we dig for that final sprint to the line. Our discipleship will require that we live our covenants with exactness and stay committed to the work and mission of the restored church to rescue any soul willing to submit their will to the Father. It is not a time for the weak-hearted or the murmurer. They will collapse from the pressures brought to bear upon them. I am thankful for special witnesses who see things as they really are and stand as witnesses of the Saviors delivering hand. It is a great blessing to have them among us to give us strength and courage.

[samizdat]

With Elder Uchtdorf's talk on Sunday morning, I saw pretty much what you were saying, Mark.

Gratitude in everything. Be as a Nephi, as a Joseph Smith, etc.

I have seen too many Lamans and Lemuels here and in other places.

[keep the faith]

With Elder Uchtdorf's talk on Sunday morning, I saw pretty much what you were saying, Mark.

Gratitude in everything. Be as a Nephi, as a Joseph Smith, etc.

I have seen too many Lamans and Lemuels here and in other places.

The sad thing samizdat is that these Laman and Lemuel prototypes actually think they are the Nephi's of our day. They kick against the pricks thinking that they are doing so justifiably in order to steady the ark. They will sadly only realize one day that their rebellious attitudes shall pierce them with much sorrow. (Section 1) And the beat goes on..

[AGalagaChiasmus]

I believe I was given a "key of knowledge" (probably the wrong terminology) in the MTC years ago, that I will share here.

It is this: Because of the Sacred and Holy nature of Christ appearing to His servants, those called as Witnesses will rarely flat out state or detail what encompasses such an experience. Almost always, they will use previous scripture or metaphor to articulate what they have seen/felt.

I believe because of this, I heard these words from Elder Boyd K. Packer and understanding filled my mind in what would otherwise have been a generic talk "wrap-up".

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).

Their words are my words. (Emphasis added)

[ajax]

Missionary to investigator:
James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."


Members to new convert or any other member for that matter:
"No questions asked, you laman and lemuel trash."


Well done gentlemen. The religion is looking better and better everyday.

[TZONE]

Missionary to investigator:
James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Members to new convert or any other member for that matter:
"No questions asked, you laman and lemuel trash."


Well done gentlemen. The religion is looking better and better everyday.

The answer is always "follow the prophet" he won't lead you astray.

See how quick satan can deceive. First seek God, than once you get a basic testimony, follow the prophet.

[e-eye]

Missionary to investigator:
James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."


Members to new convert or any other member for that matter:
"No questions asked, you laman and lemuel trash."


Well done gentlemen. The religion is looking better and better everyday.

I look at the motive behind the question and to me it appears... yes like laman and lemuel. There are those here who complain about the brethren not being bold and when they are like Elder Holland in this talk they then question. It's not normal questioning though I think the questioning is more along the lines of a way to catch Elder Holland in a trap to prove he is wrong. I know Elder Holland is a prophet and the keys have been restored as he stated. I promise you that you too can have that confirmation by going to the Lord and asking with a pure heart. The invitation to know these things was given by Elder Erying I believe in the last conference where he invited those who did not have such knowledge to pray to the father each day until they did. We have now heard this from two prophets living today and I add my testimony as well. Let us be united and do good in building the kingdom of God.

[sixpacktr]

This last conference was so full of warning to the body of the church than any I can recently remember. It was almost an Emeril 'BAM, kick it up a notch' type of conference.

There are many wolves in among the sheep. The sense I got over and over again with the talks was that not only would the world mock us, but many professing to be believing LDS would turn on those that are meekly and humbly striving to live as the Spirit leads them and as they strive to support their leaders. The BoM is full of instances where those that were lukewarm IN the church would persecute the humble followers of Christ as much as those outside the church. I always wondered how that might seem. Then I got onto the site, and saw for myself how there are those that constantly mock the 1st Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, their Stake Presidents and/or Bishops, how some think that the church was corrupted and ruined by Brigham Young after Joseph's martyrdom, etc., etc., etc. I marvel that those that hold those views are still in the church. I know that if I thought this was all a bunch of bovine scatology I'd move along, but they for some reason feel the need to 'steady the ark', that only they have some divine mandate or inspiration to call out the 12 as a bunch of pretenders that are only in it for the money.

I recently gave a talk in another unit. I have been speaking during my assignments this year with no written words before me. I simply study the topic the SP assigns and then stand up and deliver whatever the Spirit puts into my mouth, because I want to let Heavenly Father tell me then and there what needs to be said. I have had more complements these last months than ever before. I'm not dredging for complements, that isn't why I speak, but I have been amazed at some of the things that have come out of my mouth that others then were appreciative of. Anyway, during that talk I spoke of the times that are coming, and how we need to prepare spiritually as well as temporally, because there are wolves in among the sheep and unless we have the Spirit with us they will take us away and then spiritually kill us. Then a member of the Bishopric came up to me afterwards almost as if 'how'd you know?' and let me know that they have some preaching their own doctrine during classes and that it is hard to tell how to correct that.

The Brethren this time were BOLD in their assertions that the PH keys reside with them, that the Savior is over the church, and that we have not only prophets, seers and revelators over the church, but one who is the Prophet of God today, Thomas Monson.

The gospel is not a cafeteria type of thing. You have to eat the peas and broccoli along with the meatloaf and mashed potatoes. If you are honestly seeking answers, our Heavenly Father will give them to you in HIS time. But if you are trying to lay a trap to ensnare others to simply satisfy your own pride, then you are, as Peter said to Simon, in the bonds of iniquity and gall of bitterness.

[TZONE]

I believe I was given a "key of knowledge" (probably the wrong terminology) in the MTC years ago, that I will share here.

It is this: Because of the Sacred and Holy nature of Christ appearing to His servants, those called as Witnesses will rarely flat out state or detail what encompasses such an experience. Almost always, they will use previous scripture or metaphor to articulate what they have seen/felt.

I believe because of this, I heard these words from Elder Boyd K. Packer and understanding filled my mind in what would otherwise have been a generic talk "wrap-up".

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).

Their words are my words. (Emphasis added)

This contradicts the words of Joseph Smith and the early leaders. It is their DUTY and responsibility to testify. "faithful to their calling", to testify that they had seen Him. The book of mormon is full of accounts of commanding the people to testify that they had seen Christ.

We have work to do, that no other man can do. You must proclaim the Gospel in its simplicity and purity. and we commend you to God and the word of his grace. You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that YOU MAY BE ABLE TO BEAR THIS TESTIMONY, THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THE FACE OF GOD. Therefore, call upon him in faith and mighty prayer, till you prevail, for it your DUTY and your privelege to bear such testimony for yourselves. We now exhort you to be FAITHFUL TO YOUR CALLING, there must be no lack here. You must fulfil in all things, and permit is us to repeat, all nations have a claim on you. You are bound together as the three wit nesses were. You, notwithstanding can part & meet & meet and part again till your heads are silvered o[v]er with age. (Joseph Smith Papers, Minute Book 1, 12 Feb. 1834, 27–29., here)

[samizdat]

This last conference was so full of warning to the body of the church than any I can recently remember. It was almost an Emeril 'BAM, kick it up a notch' type of conference.

There are many wolves in among the sheep. The sense I got over and over again with the talks was that not only would the world mock us, but many professing to be believing LDS would turn on those that are meekly and humbly striving to live as the Spirit leads them and as they strive to support their leaders. The BoM is full of instances where those that were lukewarm IN the church would persecute the humble followers of Christ as much as those outside the church. I always wondered how that might seem. Then I got onto the site, and saw for myself how there are those that constantly mock the 1st Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, their Stake Presidents and/or Bishops, how some think that the church was corrupted and ruined by Brigham Young after Joseph's martyrdom, etc., etc., etc. I marvel that those that hold those views are still in the church. I know that if I thought this was all a bunch of bovine scatology I'd move along, but they for some reason feel the need to 'steady the ark', that only they have some divine mandate or inspiration to call out the 12 as a bunch of pretenders that are only in it for the money.

I recently gave a talk in another unit. I have been speaking during my assignments this year with no written words before me. I simply study the topic the SP assigns and then stand up and deliver whatever the Spirit puts into my mouth, because I want to let Heavenly Father tell me then and there what needs to be said. I have had more complements these last months than ever before. I'm not dredging for complements, that isn't why I speak, but I have been amazed at some of the things that have come out of my mouth that others then were appreciative of. Anyway, during that talk I spoke of the times that are coming, and how we need to prepare spiritually as well as temporally, because there are wolves in among the sheep and unless we have the Spirit with us they will take us away and then spiritually kill us. Then a member of the Bishopric came up to me afterwards almost as if 'how'd you know?' and let me know that they have some preaching their own doctrine during classes and that it is hard to tell how to correct that.

The Brethren this time were BOLD in their assertions that the PH keys reside with them, that the Savior is over the church, and that we have not only prophets, seers and revelators over the church, but one who is the Prophet of God today, Thomas Monson.

The gospel is not a cafeteria type of thing. You have to eat the peas and broccoli along with the meatloaf and mashed potatoes. If you are honestly seeking answers, our Heavenly Father will give them to you in HIS time. But if you are trying to lay a trap to ensnare others to simply satisfy your own pride, then you are, as Peter said to Simon, in the bonds of iniquity and gall of bitterness.

I couldn't have made this point better myself. Good job!

[keep the faith]

Missionary to investigator:
James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."


Members to new convert or any other member for that matter:
"No questions asked, you laman and lemuel trash."


Well done gentlemen. The religion is looking better and better everyday.

I look at the motive behind the question and to me it appears... yes like laman and lemuel. There are those here who complain about the brethren not being bold and when they are like Elder Holland in this talk they then question. It's not normal questioning though I think the questioning is more along the lines of a way to catch Elder Holland in a trap to prove he is wrong. I know Elder Holland is a prophet and the keys have been restored as he stated. I promise you that you too can have that confirmation by going to the Lord and asking with a pure heart. The invitation to know these things was given by Elder Erying I believe in the last conference where he invited those who did not have such knowledge to pray to the father each day until they did. We have now heard this from two prophets living today and I add my testimony as well. Let us be united and do good in building the kingdom of God.

That is exactly how I read some of these comments as well e-eye. This forum is full of people who love to question whether our leaders are leading thru inspiration and revelation yet when one comes forward like Elder Holland does and boldly proclaims his witness his words are dissected and questioned as to their legitimacy and veracity. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. It is a no win situation with those who love to murmur and complain and question the church's standing with The Lord. One thing or another will eventually drive them away from the church. They spend their time trying to find whats wrong with it instead of looking for whats right. One will always find what they are looking for.. :ymsigh:

[kathyn]

I am so grateful for those who defend the Brethren and the Church. It truly is the Lord's church and He is at the head. And Pres. Monson and the others who lead are in direct communication with Him. I am getting very tired of those who feel it is their mission to correct the Church and the Brethren. All they are doing is sowing discord. They are the wolves.

[pjbrownie]

I've had an epiphany.

For those that have read my comments, I'm somewhat sympathetic to the Denver Snuffer crowd. When it comes to the Church being under condemnation and having lost some of its precious truths, I think he is spot on. The issues he raised with the Brethren over the years, with Brigham Young, with the Manifesto, with Correlation, etc. I think he is correct. Just because you are a Special Witness of Christ does not mean everything you do and say, your decisions, even in committee, even if you have the office of Prophet, will come out on the right side. There ARE blind sides. If you disagree, witness Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, both who saw Christ, and both who latter fell away for a season. So can our Brethren, many who I believe have seen Christ (despite Snuffer's insistence they haven't) because the Spirit has born this witness to me; they can make mistakes. No doubt about it.

The question I have had is . . . what to do about the mistakes made. Do you shout it from the rooftops. Do you take it upon yourself to "steady the Ark?" When contemplating and praying about this I got two impressions:

1. The Church IS under condemnation, they have made and continue to make mistakes in governance. This will continue until the Lord sets His hand again to restore Zion.
2. It is still the Lord's Church. He is the one that uses imperfect people. This means that there will exist injustice and coverups in the Church, but it is not my place, nor anyone's place, to point those out, except in private and under the terms Elder Oaks once outlined in The Lord's Way. Living with those injustices can be part of the test of faith.

When people are close to the Spirit, they will see with new eyes the mistakes made, and they will understand the context. They also listen differently to the Brethren. For example, the talks for the most part, I don't feel are necessarily more inspired than other talks not given in conference. The talks are like Dumbo's feather. You show up, you listen, and the Spirit will teach you something else or interpret the words in a way differently than the talk was given. Showing up and listening shows obedience. The inspiration that flows may relate to the talks, but in a purer way. I've heard talks when the Lord has told me that "this is what Elder so and so really means" by that comment. Watch how overwhelmed some of the speakers get because the Spirit descends upon them and they give the talk the way the Lord wants them to give it, even though the words may stay the same.

If you pick apart the words you are bound to find mistakes.