"I know the church is true...."

[Curious Workman]

Survivaldealer:

"...it seems absurd to even think that a person believing in evolution is anything short of insane."

I agree!

[Ferg]

Go read Moroni 8, and insert the word testimony where the word baptism is. I think it fits this thread quite well. We just read it last night.

[laronius]

I think we all need a little reminder of what it means to "know" something in terms of the gospel.

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.[/color]

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.


Knowledge is the product of learning, experimenting, and then witnessing the result/fruits. But it only comes line upon line, precept upon precept, meaning, we come to know the Gospel is true, one doctrine at a time. The Church, as established by God, is one of those doctrines. As we learn about the Restoration and the establishment of the Church, particularly living prophets, the keys of the priesthood and the accompanying ordinances and covenants, and then begin to exercise faith in these teachings, the Spirit witnesses to us that they are true. Then we can say we know the Church is true. Of course this does not mean we know all their is to know but we do know somethings. The rest we just believe or have faith in. But if we persist down the straight and narrow path that knowledge will grow more complete until we come to know all things.

[Ferg]

Someone asked about personal experiences as to knowing the church is true. Years ago I had this experience. I awoke one night after having the vision/dream. It started out that I was standing at the top of a large staircase that was made of marble, I could hear a song that was being played I knew it as "what child is this" their were no words just the melody being played. Yet i was intrigued as to where the music was coming from so I stared walking down the staircase.
When I reached the bottom of the stairs I was in a hall with doors on either side, still hearing the music I went to the first door and looked in to see the room was filled with Navtivity scenes each made of white porcelain. I came out of the room and crossed the hall into the next room to see more Nativity scenes these were made of clear glass I wandered in this room looking at the different sets after doing so I left and was again in the hall when I entered the last room to find more Nativity sets these were made of crystal and I spent some time looking at them.
When I left this room I was in the hall I looked to my right and saw that it opened up into a larger room like the culture room, at the far end of this room was a family portraying a live nativity, as I approached them the father put his son in the cradle and he and his wife took their roll as Joseph and Mary. I stood their for what seemed like hours. When the father started talking to me, telling me that hardly looking at them, yet his son was being so good not fussing or getting cranky. I was then allowed to see why his son was not fussing. The whole time we were talking their was a line of people coming by and thanking the child these were spirits. I was then holding the child as more spirits stopped and spoke to the child, one came forward with only a loin cloth on and talked about being forced to worjlk in the mudpits to build Pharaoh's pyramids, another talked about following Moses and thanked him for sending the plagues on Pharaohs lands so he would know who the God of Israel is.
My attention was drawn away as I looked around the room to see more spirits filling the room, yet they were more from our time they were too focused on why their phones and tablets were not working, to see what was going on. The child that I was holding suddenly looked up and I did too, to see a dark complexion man standing before us. He knelt down and explained that he and two others searched the heavens and when a new star appeared, they followed it until they found the child. He was one of the three wise men. Another man came forward and just wept at the sight of the child, as he stood their weeping the music became exceedingly loud as a host of angels sang out "this this is Christ the Lord" at that moment the most purest light began to fill the room, as the Savior stood in the midist of us...He looked my direction and said "look around this room and tell me what you see." I did as I was instructed and said that i see the spirits that have passed. He then asked me to look again and tell me who was present. I looked and said that their were spirits from the time of Moses and their were those who were from this dispensation.
He then asked me to tell them what they were doing, I said that their were some on bended knee. While their were others still standing, not see Him. As I said this His coutanance changed from happiness to sadness as He said that those who were standing have forgotten all that He has done for them they have forgotten the meaning of the Christmas season. He began walking around the room while those who were on bended knees waited for his acknowledgment, while passing by others who didn't even take notice he was their. Before He left He looked at me again and said "those on bended knee have not forgotten all I gave to them, while those that are still standing will be burned as stubble in the field when I come again.

This experience was over 10 years ago. And yet I still recall it like it was just yesterday.

[Original_Intent]

Yes those experiences do leave an indelible mark, don't they?

I had a similar experience in June or July of 1984, and it remained very clear to me until recently when I shared the experience with family and a few others. I had kept it to myself until then, and received permission to share it - but sadly with that sharing it became a memory of a memory, it is no longer as if it happened yesterday.

[Annalea]

Ferg, thank you for sharing that experience. How amazing, wonderful, and beautiful it is! Jesus loves all of His children, and the symbolism of the dream you had is lovely, indeed.

I'm curious as to why you feel that vision showed you that the church is true . . . when to me it seems more a condemnation of our dispensation: people who are distracted and distanced from Jesus. I'd love to understand better what you meant by that, since the contents of the dream itself seemed to be about Jesus' relationship with His children, and His longing for them to remember Him.

[Robert Sinclair]

The one thing I can testify to all of you is that the scriptures held in the hands of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have the truth of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ given through many testimonies and witnesses given from the house of Judah's perserved and protected records or stick of Judah together with the peserved and protected records of the house of Manassah joined with the latter day records of the house of Ephraim.

These records if studied dilligently for what is a common tie that binds them together into one, will manifest that Jesus Christ has been visiting the children of Adam from the beginning. Jesus Christ taught them to be equal in their temporal things as a way to manifest a love for God and one another and to be pure in heart.

Understand that this fullness of his gospel and teachings was first brought to be lived by this family of Adam to the delight of the Lord of Hosts even Jesus Christ when Enoch taught some of the family to live together in love insomuch as they had no poor among them and lived as one and were pure in heart.

And because of this righteouness and goodness the Lord called these family members Zion because they all were of one heart and mind and of holiness and pure in heart.
These were taken into the celestial kingdom of God except for Noah and his family who were left upon the earth to survive the flood that destroyed all the rest in the flood that came to wipe out the wicked.

Next was the family of Abraham through Moses who taught the children of Israel through feasts and laws given them to be just and equal in their temporal things especially any king or leader they would choose to rule over them.
This king or leader was to not multiply wives or gold or silver or possessions above that of their fellow man and he was to do a book report and copy all of the law by his own hand and meditate therein day and night that he might learn to not lift his heart above his brethren.

David and Solomon both rejected the law and as such were unable to redeem the Zion of God.

Now Jesus Christ was born unto the house of Judah, and taught them of his laws and commandments. Peter and the other 12 apostles accepted his teachings and sold their possessions and goods and distributed to everyone who had need of them that believed. Were assembled together in the temple and were baptized with fire and power from on high.

Afterwards going forth and working the works of God healing the sick and afflicted and opening the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind and cause the crippled to walk again and raised the dead as Jesus Christ had following after his order as a great high priest or teacher of the children of men.

Now Jesus Christ told them he had other sheep and came to visit the house of Manassah that he had led away and planted in another part of the vineyard, and taught them of his laws and commandments and they had all things in common among them and choosing 12 did baptize them with fire and power, where they went forth after his order healing the sick and afflicted and opening the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind and cause the crippled to walk again for 200 years, until the 201st year had passed away, and they began to be lifted up in their hearts and had no more all things in common.

And the work of miracles did cease soon after.

Now Jesus Christ had told them he had other sheep and came to the house of Ephraim and Israel through Joseph Smith and delivered up to them the records and testimonies of the house of Manassah to them of how they had the fullness at one time for 200 years. Jesus Christ then invites and instructs Joseph Smith and fellow members to come and be baptized as well with fire and power from on high by being equal in their temporal things and preparing a feast of fat things required from the rich and learned the wise and noble among them of equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart but they refuse to obey and answer this invitation.

Now is this the end for this house of Ephraim who like silly doves and an unwise son reject these greater things of the law?

Nay, for the Lord still does love them and waits for them to acknowledge their offence and for them to return and seek his face which he had hid from them because of their doings. So is this the true church of Jesus Christ?

Yes it can be as they have been chosen and honored if they will but accept their calling and election to lead the way to him. Will they?

Yes they will. When? It is up to them.

What is the way choosen for them? It has been testified by Moroni to Joseph Smith that it must needs be that his commandments are kept as quoted from the book of Acts and that the words of Christ given unto Joel are fullfilled and followed that the scriptures held by the house of Ephraim are proven true.

Decisions, decisions yea the decision is to be made by this house of Ephraim should we awaken? A deep sleep has fallen upon us and all of our people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge of these things. We have become as broken cisterns that can hold no water.

No one is exempt yea no one from this law who belong to the church of the living God. In your temporal things ye shall be equal.

Go and learn and then return is spoken in the stick of Ephraim known as section 105. Come to the wedding feast invitation is spoken in the stick of Ephraim section 58. Hear this ye old men Joel testifies and look and see is this in your day?

Awake and atone and fast and pray and bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart and come and meet the bridegroom. So it has been written and so it must needs be done. Awake, you will be glad you did:)

[Annalea]

Robert, I'd never looked at the history of God's dealings with His people that way before...a Zion-centric timeline. Thank you!

You lost me, though, when you said the current church will accept the fullness and bring again Zion. It's my understanding that the gospel will be taken from/be lost by the Gentile church (that's us) because we refuse, as a people, to accept what has been offered.

Did I just misunderstand what you were getting at?

[Robert Sinclair]

It all comes down to the word of Jesus Christ.
"If".
I believe great things can and will happen for the house of Ephraim.
I have faith they will awaken and acknowledge and atone and return.
So it has been written and so it shall be done.
It is only a question of when? I say unto all why not now?

[keep the faith]

You lost me, though, when you said the current church will accept the fullness and bring again Zion. It's my understanding that the gospel will be taken from/be lost by the Gentile church (that's us) because we refuse, as a people, to accept what has been offered.

Did I just misunderstand what you were getting at?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Savior actually taught. Robert Sinclair is correct with his inclusion of the word "if". The Savior will give an inheritance to those gentiles of Ephraim descent IF they repent, purify their hearts, and come unto him.

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

Not to mention the Saviors words revealed in section 133 which are clear on the participation of this Ephraim led church in this latter day establishment of Zion.

25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,

29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.

30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.

31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.

32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.

34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

The testimonies of every latter day Prophet since Joseph reaffirms the role of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in these great latter day gathering events. Those who teach that the gospel of Jesus Christ and its necessary Priesthood keys will be taken from and lost by this church do not understand scripture and reject the testimony of the Prophets of the Lord. It is false and deceptive doctrine.

[Ferg]

Ferg, thank you for sharing that experience. How amazing, wonderful, and beautiful it is! Jesus loves all of His children, and the symbolism of the dream you had is lovely, indeed.

I'm curious as to why you feel that vision showed you that the church is true . . . when to me it seems more a condemnation of our dispensation: people who are distracted and distanced from Jesus. I'd love to understand better what you meant by that, since the contents of the dream itself seemed to be about Jesus' relationship with His children, and His longing for them to remember Him.

As a convert to this church. I have been through every chruch and some that most don't know about. Yet I never had any personal experiences in the chruches. I didn't start having them until I decided on serving a mission, what I didn't realize was that I was being prepaired for these experiences all along. It was when I was on my mission that I startedto understand things and gain a knowledge of understanding personal revelation. Even at my baptism I was expecting a grand revelation to this church. But instead I received a calming and quite reassurance and a peaceful feeling that I understood to know to be the spirit testifying that this church is true. I have had other experiences as well...

[A Random Phrase]

I have experienced several miracles, although my first experience with asking an Elder to perform a blessing and having him tell me that I shouldn't get my hopes up and that it was all the will of the Lord, bla bla bla. And I was like “Well, why didn't you just tell me that you had no faith and we were all just wasting our time?”

Triple Amen. I really do feel like I wasted my time asking - and they wasted their time by showing up.

[Sigus]

Dear Robert Sinclair I enjoy you posts. But, please mix in some paragraphs. Us mere mortals love large white spaces every 5 lines or so.

I know that god exists because I have felt his infinite presence in prayer and in meditation. I have not seen nor heard him. However, his infinite loving presence have filled my soul with hope, peace and joy to the point that I thought I would burst. I love god and his wonderful patience with a poor wretched vagabond like me.

Peace out...

[A Random Phrase]

Dear Robert Sinclair I enjoy you posts. But, please mix in some paragraphs. Us mere mortals love large white spaces every 5 lines or so.

I agree. I find it difficult to read huge paragraphs on a screen. Notice the difference between the two:

The one thing I can testify to all of you is that the scriptures held in the hands of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have the truth of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ given through many testimonies and witnesses given from the house of Judah's perserved and protected records or stick of Judah together with the peserved and protected records of the house of Manassah joined with the latter day records of the house of Ephraim. These records if studied dilligently for what is a common tie that binds them together into one, will manifest that Jesus Christ has been visiting the children of Adam from the beginning. Jesus Christ taught them to be equal in their temporal things as a way to manifest a love for God and one another and to be pure in heart. Understand that this fullness of his gospel and teachings was first brought to be lived by this family of Adam to the delight of the Lord of Hosts even Jesus Christ when Enoch taught some of the family to live together in love insomuch as they had no poor among them and lived as one and were pure in heart. And because of this righteouness and goodness the Lord called these family members Zion because they all were of one heart and mind and of holiness and pure in heart. These were taken into the celestial kingdom of God except for Noah and his family who were left upon the earth to survive the flood that destroyed all the rest in the flood that came to wipe out the wicked. Next was the family of Abraham through Moses who taught the children of Israel through feasts and laws given them to be just and equal in their temporal things especially any king or leader they would choose to rule over them. This king or leader was to not multiply wives or gold or silver or possessions above that of their fellow man and he was to do a book report and copy all of the law by his own hand and meditate therein day and night that he might learn to not lift his heart above his brethren. David and Solomon both rejected the law and as such were unable to redeem the Zion of God. Now Jesus Christ was born unto the house of Judah and taught them of his laws and commandments and Peter and the other 12 apostles accepted his teachings and sold their possessions and goods and distributed to everyone who had need of them that belived and were assembled together in the temple and were baptized with fire and power from on high afterwards going forth and working the works of God healing the sick and afflicted and opening the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind and cause the crippled to walk again and raised the dead as Jesus Christ had following after his order as a great high priest or teacher of the children of men. Now Jesus Christ told them he had other sheep and came to visit the house of Manassah that he had led away and planted in another part of the vineyard and taught them of his laws and commandments and they had all things in common among them and choosing 12 did baptize them with fire and power where they went forth after his order healing the sick and afflicted and opening the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind and cause the crippled to walk again for 200 years until the 201st year had passed away and they began to be lifted up in their hearts and had no more all things in common. And the work of miracles did cease soon after. Now Jesus Christ had told them he had other sheep and came to the house of Ephraim and Israel through Joseph Smith and delivered up to them the records and testimonies of the house of Manassah to them of how they had the fullness at one time for 200 years. Jesus Christ then invites and instructs Joseph Smith and fellow members to come and be baptized as well with fire and power from on high by being equal in their temporal things and preparing a feast of fat things required from the rich and learned the wise and noble among them of equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart but they refuse to obey and answer this invitation. Now is this the end for this house of Ephraim who like silly doves and an unwise son reject these greater things of the law? Nay, for the Lord still does love them and waits for them to acknowledge their offence and for them to return and seek his face which he had hid from them because of their doings. So is this the true church of Jesus Christ? Yes it can be as they have been chosen and honored if they will but accept their calling and election to lead the way to him. Will they? Yes they will. When? It is up to them. What is the way choosen for them? It has been testified by Moroni to Joseph Smith that it must needs be that his commandments are kept as quoted from the book of Acts and that the words of Christ given unto Joel are fullfilled and followed that the scriptures held by the house of Ephraim are proven true. Decisions, decisions yea the decision is to be made by this house of Ephraim should we awaken? A deep sleep has fallen upon us and all of our people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge of these things. We have become as broken cisterns that can hold no water. No one is exempt yea no one from this law who belong to the church of the living God. In your temporal things ye shall be equal. Go and learn and then return is spoken in the stick of Ephraim known as section 105. Come to the wedding feast invitation is spoken in the stick of Ephraim section 58. Hear this ye old men Joel testifies and look and see is this in your day? Awake and atone and fast and pray and bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart and come and meet the bridegroom. So it has been written and so it must needs be done. Awake, you will be glad you did:)

The one thing I can testify to all of you is that the scriptures held in the hands of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have the truth of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ given through many testimonies and witnesses given from the house of Judah's perserved and protected records or stick of Judah together with the peserved and protected records of the house of Manassah joined with the latter day records of the house of Ephraim.

These records if studied dilligently for what is a common tie that binds them together into one, will manifest that Jesus Christ has been visiting the children of Adam from the beginning. Jesus Christ taught them to be equal in their temporal things as a way to manifest a love for God and one another and to be pure in heart.

Understand that this fullness of his gospel and teachings was first brought to be lived by this family of Adam to the delight of the Lord of Hosts even Jesus Christ when Enoch taught some of the family to live together in love insomuch as they had no poor among them and lived as one and were pure in heart. And because of this righteouness and goodness the Lord called these family members Zion because they all were of one heart and mind and of holiness and pure in heart. These were taken into the celestial kingdom of God except for Noah and his family who were left upon the earth to survive the flood that destroyed all the rest in the flood that came to wipe out the wicked.

Next was the family of Abraham through Moses who taught the children of Israel through feasts and laws given them to be just and equal in their temporal things especially any king or leader they would choose to rule over them. This king or leader was to not multiply wives or gold or silver or possessions above that of their fellow man and he was to do a book report and copy all of the law by his own hand and meditate therein day and night that he might learn to not lift his heart above his brethren.

David and Solomon both rejected the law and as such were unable to redeem the Zion of God.

Now Jesus Christ was born unto the house of Judah and taught them of his laws and commandments and Peter and the other 12 apostles accepted his teachings and sold their possessions and goods and distributed to everyone who had need of them that belived and were assembled together in the temple and were baptized with fire and power from on high afterwards going forth and working the works of God healing the sick and afflicted and opening the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind and cause the crippled to walk again and raised the dead as Jesus Christ had following after his order as a great high priest or teacher of the children of men.

Now Jesus Christ told them he had other sheep and came to visit the house of Manassah that he had led away and planted in another part of the vineyard and taught them of his laws and commandments and they had all things in common among them and choosing 12 did baptize them with fire and power where they went forth after his order healing the sick and afflicted and opening the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind and cause the crippled to walk again for 200 years until the 201st year had passed away and they began to be lifted up in their hearts and had no more all things in common. And the work of miracles did cease soon after.

Now Jesus Christ had told them he had other sheep and came to the house of Ephraim and Israel through Joseph Smith and delivered up to them the records and testimonies of the house of Manassah to them of how they had the fullness at one time for 200 years.

Jesus Christ then invites and instructs Joseph Smith and fellow members to come and be baptized as well with fire and power from on high by being equal in their temporal things and preparing a feast of fat things required from the rich and learned the wise and noble among them of equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart but they refuse to obey and answer this invitation.

Now is this the end for this house of Ephraim who like silly doves and an unwise son reject these greater things of the law? Nay, for the Lord still does love them and waits for them to acknowledge their offence and for them to return and seek his face which he had hid from them because of their doings.

So is this the true church of Jesus Christ? Yes it can be as they have been chosen and honored if they will but accept their calling and election to lead the way to him.

Will they? Yes they will.

When? It is up to them.

What is the way choosen for them? It has been testified by Moroni to Joseph Smith that it must needs be that his commandments are kept as quoted from the book of Acts and that the words of Christ given unto Joel are fullfilled and followed that the scriptures held by the house of Ephraim are proven true.

Decisions, decisions yea the decision is to be made by this house of Ephraim should we awaken? A deep sleep has fallen upon us and all of our people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge of these things. We have become as broken cisterns that can hold no water.

No one is exempt yea no one from this law who belong to the church of the living God. In your temporal things ye shall be equal. Go and learn and then return is spoken in the stick of Ephraim known as section 105. Come to the wedding feast invitation is spoken in the stick of Ephraim section 58.

Hear this ye old men Joel testifies and look and see is this in your day? Awake and atone and fast and pray and bring his bride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and purity of heart and come and meet the bridegroom. So it has been written and so it must needs be done. Awake, you will be glad you did:)

The latter formatting will draw more people to read your insightful posts.

[Ferg]

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