"I know the church is true...."

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Ferg
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"I know the church is true...."

Post by Ferg »

So last fast and testimony meeting, I had a guy who was sitting behind me in sacrament meeting tap me on the shoulder and ask me how our members could say that...he is my neighbor and came to church at my daughters asking. I told him that it was because we know that it is.
He again pressed me as a young child got up and said those words. He pointed to the child as he said. so your telling me that that little kid knows that this church is true?
So my question is, do we say that because we have received our own personal witness that it is true? Or has it just become a catch phrase that we throw out because everyone else says it..

Cookies
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Cookies »

Ferg wrote: So my question is, do we say that because we have received our own personal witness that it is true? Or has it just become a catch phrase that we throw out because everyone else says it..
Both.

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DPeterson
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by DPeterson »

The "church" isn't true. The church is a body of individual believers. How can that be true?
D&C 10
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
Of course it has become a catch phrase. If you were raised in the church you've heard it and been told to say it by your parents since you could talk. What they are trying to say is that they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through Joseph Smith and embraced by this body of believers is true. That's just very long! :P

The Gospel is true. The church is not.

rasattack
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by rasattack »

Based on my own experience, I'd say too many people in the church say they "know" something when they don't actually have knowledge of that thing. It's something I did many times growing up and on my mission. I and likely many others were taught that an emotional response to something was the Spirit testifying of truth, but after realizing I could feel the same thing during powerful scenes in movies and books I believe we've been taught incorrectly. I'm now struggling to identify how the Spirit actually communicates with me to testify of truth. Joseph Smith identifying it as "pure intelligence" has helped, but I still struggle with it.

I believe that there are those who've received a sure knowledge, but I like to think their testimony would be more than a list of things they "know." I don't believe God is pleased with a bunch of people who gather together to pat each other on the back and talk about how they're so happy to be members of the only true church.

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TZONE
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by TZONE »

There is no way that kid KNOWS. I won't even say now today that hte church is true. The gospel is true, the church is not. A church under condemnation cannot be a true and living church, it contradicts the Lords own definition in D&C 1. True and living church or the church of the first born, or partakers of the heavenly gift. That is true and living. There are some great servants in the scriptures at young ages, but even being these great men they had lots of knowledge that needed to be gained until they qualified themselves to "know" anything.

Here is what happens (this is my personal experience). I read the book of mormon pray over it and over time I gain a witness its true. Ok if its true I am taught than Joseph is true, than the church is all true. Well partially rght. Later I realized under this same logic, the catholic church must be true, because Christs 12 disciples were true, what they taught were true so everything accompanying it must be true. Same logic. But we know thats not true right? So we cannot say that. Its false reasoning.

I had to independtly gain a witness of Joseph Smith which I have. Even now I only say I believe, not know. Because to "know" you must commune, converse with, have a personal relation ship with. I don't have that with Christ yet, so I don't know but I believe with all my heart, for I have received many revelations. Same with the book of Mormon. No such witness of the "church". Besides know ye not the kingdom of God is within you? Its, the church, is only true when WE BECOME the kingdom of God (the church), than are WE true because we are one with God and the children of the Firstborn.

Rand
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Rand »

There are many levels of knowledge and unknowledge. There are many levels of testimony. They feel something whisper truth in side of their heart and soul. Often they lack the clarity of understanding to express it precisely, but that doesn't invalidate the reality of what they are feeling nor the truth of it.

Sometimes we get to know so much that we loose site of what is so. The Gospel is simply and it is simply true.
Looking beyond the mark is a real risk.

Which is worse, looking beyond the mark or not looking deeply enough into the Gospel?

Obedience is the key. If our knowledge impacts our obedience negatively, it is a curse not a gift.

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shadow
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by shadow »

In section 1:30 The Lord says this is the only "true" church. I know it's true too.

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ajax
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by ajax »

shadow wrote:In section 1:30 The Lord says this is the only "true" church. I know it's true too.
In section 84, the Lord says this is a condemned church. I know it's condemned too.

In other words, it's truly condemned.

Welcome back from the shadows shadow.

Cookies
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Cookies »

The phrase "I know this church is true" means different things for different people, so its hard to know exactly what everybody means when they say it.

I can say the church is true with confidance, if by true I mean, we are not making this stuff up! It is an actual church that I attend weekly! ;)

natasha
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by natasha »

shadow wrote:In section 1:30 The Lord says this is the only "true" church. I know it's true too.
So glad your back, Shadow. I think we are making this something much more complicated than it is. I believe that the Church was set up by the Savior...and he says it's TRUE. He has given us his gospel....which is also TRUE. The imperfections are within people. We are imperfect human beings trying to live the Gospel and function in the organization that he set up in order toa: "four-fold mission of the Church). Any "weaknesses" come from us. Therefore, I believe the Church is True as is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Last edited by natasha on April 16th, 2014, 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

sevenator
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by sevenator »

As previously stated:
D&C 1:30
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
Bear in mind, this is the word of the Lord himself.

If you want something a bit more exhaustive, have a go at this link: https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church.

To answer the original question, I think with kids it's more a culture thing, doing what they see parents and friends do. It's borrowed light, and that's OK. I can see that it might be problematic for a non-member visitor to hear something like that from a child. However, I have seen and heard some jaw-droppingly spiritual testimonies shared by children in the 8-11 year old range.

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Original_Intent
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Original_Intent »

I think we do our kids a great disservice if we let them bear a "going through the motions" testimony. Certainly young children can have great testimonies, I remember having a testimony and spiritual experiences at a young age. It is pretty obvious when a child is bearing a testimony vs. they want to get up there and talk in front of the congregation.

As parents, I think too many of us let kids just go through the motions. Bearing testimony, partaking of the sacrament, etc. Sacrament is a renewal of baptism covenants. If a child wants to partake, I don't think it is worth a fuss to deny it to them, but I also have seen mothers struggling to get a baby to eat the bread to the point that they almost force feed it to them.

is it any wonder that many of us don't focus as we should during the sacrament on renewing our covenants? I think it would make it more meaningful if young kids were taught at an early age what the sacrament is and they didn't partake until baptism. My opinion. Same with testimonies, a parent should know if their young child has a testimony, and if they want to bear it, great. But just letting a kid get up because he is an extrovert and wants to be the center of attention for a few minutes, not so much.

And teaching them to say they know the church is true or that TSM is the true prophet when they have no idea is, in my opinion teaching them to bear false witness and a testimony becomes a meaningless, formulaic spew of words.

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Jason
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Jason »

Original_Intent wrote:I think we do our kids a great disservice if we let them bear a "going through the motions" testimony. Certainly young children can have great testimonies, I remember having a testimony and spiritual experiences at a young age. It is pretty obvious when a child is bearing a testimony vs. they want to get up there and talk in front of the congregation.

As parents, I think too many of us let kids just go through the motions. Bearing testimony, partaking of the sacrament, etc. Sacrament is a renewal of baptism covenants. If a child wants to partake, I don't think it is worth a fuss to deny it to them, but I also have seen mothers struggling to get a baby to eat the bread to the point that they almost force feed it to them.

is it any wonder that many of us don't focus as we should during the sacrament on renewing our covenants? I think it would make it more meaningful if young kids were taught at an early age what the sacrament is and they didn't partake until baptism. My opinion. Same with testimonies, a parent should know if their young child has a testimony, and if they want to bear it, great. But just letting a kid get up because he is an extrovert and wants to be the center of attention for a few minutes, not so much.

And teaching them to say they know the church is true or that TSM is the true prophet when they have no idea is, in my opinion teaching them to bear false witness and a testimony becomes a meaningless, formulaic spew of words.
1st Presidency issues a letter about once a year reminding everyone of that. A few months back when the Bishop read the latest release over the pulpit prior to testimonies...he was shortly followed by a string of kids whose parents just blew off the Lord's spokesmen.

Simply amazing...

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shadow
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by shadow »

ajax wrote:
shadow wrote:In section 1:30 The Lord says this is the only "true" church. I know it's true too.
In section 84, the Lord says this is a condemned church. I know it's condemned too.

In other words, it's truly condemned.

Welcome back from the shadows shadow.
Being under condemnation doesn't mean it's no longer true or "living".
Thanks for the welcome! My membership blessings have been reinstated after a year or so of being excommunicated.

Lizzy60
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Lizzy60 »

We have institutionalized the 5 points of a true testimony. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the temple, and Thomas S Monson.

http://deseretbook.com/Testimony-Glove- ... /i/5044695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lance
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Lance »

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Last edited by Lance on June 25th, 2015, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lizzy60
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Lizzy60 »

I'd be more impressed if we were providing them with clean water and health care. But, that has been covered in other threads.

Geesh, giving them testimony gloves is just ridiculous.

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jockeybox
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by jockeybox »

Lizzy60 wrote:I'd be more impressed if we were providing them with clean water and health care. But, that has been covered in other threads.

Geesh, giving them testimony gloves is just ridiculous.
Exactly! Try putting something in their bellies, then worry about teaching them gospel principals.
I'm an advocate for good intentions, but this misses the mark.

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LDX
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by LDX »

I think this is how we should understand it

which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually

Ferg
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by Ferg »

My point in this whole discussion is not deter anyone from getting up and bearing testimony, just to bring out that we get too caught up in the catch phrases of the church..
I myself am a convert to the church. So I can say that I have been on the outside looking in. I have been to every church and some that people would not even know existed. Like Joseph I attended the chruches wanting to know what the whole point of this life was about, why are we here what's the point of this life. I felt comfortable in the churches I attended yet after a while they all seemed to be repeating the same things over and over with no new insight.
So I quit attending religions all together and hoped that I would live my live good enough to be judged to enter into heaven. I even questioned the missionaries who taught me I researched the points of the church as they explained them to me. So when this gentelmen tapped me on my shoulder in sacrament meeting and asked me how we can say those words..I understood where he was coming from.
When I went to teach my class which is the 12-13 yr olds we were on the topic of the apostasy and restoration. I asked my class if they knew what happened to the origional 12 Apostles, I explained to them how they were killed off and eventually their was no one on the earth with any authority.
As I went to read Joseph's Smith history and the account in the grove. I was suddenly overtaken by the spirit and quit talking, I set my scriptures down and recounted my conversion to them. I told them that they don't get it. That they take it for granted being raised in the church. Not being the one on the outside looking in. But they will have to find their own testimony on the church. The gentelmen who asked the question to me in sacrament meeting was in my class as well. Perhaps he was in their to hear my conversion to the church.
perhaps he was in attendance to hear this from a convert about how the church changed one persons life...




It just so happened that my lesson for the 12-13 yr Ole's was on the apostasy and the restoration.

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TZONE
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by TZONE »

1831 the lord calls his Church "true and living" (what was happenign at this time?)
1833 The church is brought under condemnation (not true and living? D&C 84)
1838 the name is changed (Why?)
1841 The fulness of the priesthood was fully lost (D&C 124)
...

How can a condemned church be true and living?
If anyone can explain that go ahead.

Ferg, I agree we use way too many phrases that make no sense. The more I learn in the gospel and learn how the Lord is so careful on the words he uses in the book of Mormon to mean a specific thing, specific event, etc... I have learned to try to be more careful in the words I use. The Lord uses certain words to distinguish between different prophecies and events and its up to us to determin what they are. Not to mention their defintions are usually quite different than we first assume (thus we must unconfound the language). Such as D&C 19 on endless and everlasting punishment definitions.

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jbalm
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by jbalm »

Lan wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:We have institutionalized the 5 points of a true testimony. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the temple, and Thomas S Monson.

http://deseretbook.com/Testimony-Glove- ... /i/5044695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I just read the Product Description on the link you provided: "Royalties from the sale of this book assist in providing testimony gloves to children in developing countries."

Just what they have been waiting for!
Testimony gloves, huh?

I lost a couple fingers in an accident a few years ago.

Now everything is starting to make sense.

e-eye
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by e-eye »

shadow wrote:
ajax wrote:
shadow wrote:In section 1:30 The Lord says this is the only "true" church. I know it's true too.
In section 84, the Lord says this is a condemned church. I know it's condemned too.

In other words, it's truly condemned.

Welcome back from the shadows shadow.
Being under condemnation doesn't mean it's no longer true or "living".
Thanks for the welcome! My membership blessings have been reinstated after a year or so of being excommunicated.
Glad to see you back Shadow now I know LDSFF is true!!!

e-eye
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by e-eye »

jbalm wrote:
Lan wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:We have institutionalized the 5 points of a true testimony. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the temple, and Thomas S Monson.

http://deseretbook.com/Testimony-Glove- ... /i/5044695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I just read the Product Description on the link you provided: "Royalties from the sale of this book assist in providing testimony gloves to children in developing countries."

Just what they have been waiting for!
Testimony gloves, huh?

I lost a couple fingers in an accident a few years ago.

Now everything is starting to make sense.
On the bright side you have a few emotions that represent you well... :YMPEACE: \M/ l-)

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jbalm
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Re: "I know the church is true...."

Post by jbalm »

The middle one looks about right.

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