LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

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Provision
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LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Provision »

I saw this on another web site.

It made me very sad

What has become of us ?
////...

TL:DR- Former missionary to Ecuador who is now physician identifies solutions to how LDS kids are - avoidably- malnourished, stunted growth and even dying, because stakes in Central and Sth America have insufficient fast offering pools to help chronic health needs of their members. Presents a costed solution to suffering which = a drop in the LDS spending bucket. Pages 7 and 12 are heartbreaking.


Okay, I am Vulcan Romulan even. But even this stuff brought a tear to my eye

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxLphPF ... edit?pli=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He speaks to Stake presidents and Bishops etc from those countries and stakes, and presents a possible solution and costs it- that would make real, meaningful and lasting difference in the lives of kids in these poor stakes and wards.

He explores how bad the suffering is, how little fast offerings are made in these terribly poor stakes, why the stakes with the most need are structurally and financially unable to contribute sufficient to generate sufficient.

....I was Stake and ward auditor of 3 wards. In one of the wards, the bishop was paying $1600 rent for a member. PER MONTH. And did for 9 of 12 months in a year. Others had $2300 electricity bills paid (yes, how is that even possible) $1,000 car insurances, car repairs, car registrations. The ward fast income was around $30,000 on average, which squares with the numbers he presents.

For those who enjoyed the paper produced by the Cumorah guys in church membership rates (for its honest analysis) this guy does similar style

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxLphPF ... edit?pli=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From page 7: During the year 2000, in the Las Malvinas Ward, Huancavilca Stake, with fifty children aged one to fourteen, 80 percent of the children had abnormally low height per age, and 88 per- cent had abnormally low weight per age; more than 40 percent were anemic and more than 80 percent had parasites. In the Colinas al Sol, Florida, and Gallegos Lara Wards of the Prosperina Stake, with one hundred children age fourteen or younger, seventy had abnormally low height per age and eighty had abnormally low weight per age; more than sixty were anemic and more than eighty had parasites.21 physicians practicing in Cuenca, Ecuador, were able to furnish me with a list of infants who had died among the Saints in the Cuenca Stake between 1980 and 2000. Although it was only a partial list, it contained the names of ten infants, ranging in age from three days to sixteen months, who had died from pneumonia, bronchitis, amoebic dysentery, diarrhea, Local leaders see the implications of these....

This comment by GA Elder Pace on page 12 sickened me
...stake. Elder Pace then observed, "We could have poured money into this stake from more affluent areas and felt good about it. However, in doing so we would have robbed them of the opportunity to serve each other and to become sanctified in the He does not say what the temporal human costs were that accompanied the spiritual growth, but on the basis of the typical calculations explained earlier in this paper, I would estimate that the stake in question, over three years, would have seen the avoidable deaths of sixteen small children and the growth-stunting of forty more, in the absence of the minimal extra funds required to nourish and vaccinate these children. The ultimate irony here is found later in the same article, where Elder Pace makes the declaration I quoted earlier that "no Latter-day Saint" should have to descend into "a state of human misery. . .as long as The "flip side," as it were, of the official church concern with promoting the principle of sacrifice for spiritual..../
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Provision
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Provision »

Truly the blessings of paying tithing

Valiance
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Valiance »

This is exactly why I hope that the news doesn't get out in other countries amongst our members that the church dropped billions on a luxury mall for the rich to spruce up downtown SLC. :-o :-$

CWilson
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by CWilson »

Valiance wrote:This is exactly why I hope that the news doesn't get out in other countries amongst our members that the church dropped billions on a luxury mall for the rich to spruce up downtown SLC. :-o :-$
I just returned from Mexico where the members already know about CCM. They were confused and angry to say the least.

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Provision
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Provision »

Hmm. Billions.
Children dying
Sleep at night.

Hmm, yes. Interesting

Lizzy60
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Lizzy60 »

It's just a total cop-out to say that the mall wasn't built with tithing funds. Every dollar that comes into His church should be treated as though it were His. Everything is the Lord's, and until we, individually and collectively, realize that, we will never be a part of building Zion. As Isaiah says, the day will come that many will be trying to hide their riches, because the mere fact that they have them will condemn them.

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LDSguy
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by LDSguy »

What do YOU consider a "generous fast offering"? key word being generous. I know my wife and I make an effort to pay an overly generous fast offering, way more than 'the cost of the two meals not eaten.' Just curious what others consider 'generous' to mean.

Valiance
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Valiance »

sen6b wrote:I agree WAY more needs to be done to help the less fortunate but the mall wasn't built off tithing funds.
The church invests a generous percentage of tithing donations into real estate which sits in an interest bearing account for several years which is then used to fund massive, costly, for-profit construction projects like City Creek. So to say no tithing funds were used is misleading.

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MelissaM
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by MelissaM »

sen6b wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:It's just a total cop-out to say that the mall wasn't built with tithing funds. Every dollar that comes into His church should be treated as though it were His. Everything is the Lord's, and until we, individually and collectively, realize that, we will never be a part of building Zion. As Isaiah says, the day will come that many will be trying to hide their riches, because the mere fact that they have them will condemn them.
For profit:
The key to understanding Church finances is to understand that they are a means to an end. They allow the Church to carry
So how many impoverished LDS children get to suffer and die from preventable problems until the end justifies the means?
It's just so inherently against Zion that I cannot wrap my head around it, nor do I really want to.

anewtongue
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by anewtongue »

Provision thanks for drawing attention to this. It's a horrible indictment against us as a people. For anyone interested in doing something about the malnourished children please consider adopting a stake with some friends or family through the Liahona Children's Foundation. liahonachildren dot org. 100% of donated funds go to the cause.

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MelissaM
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by MelissaM »

sen6b wrote:
MelissaM wrote:
sen6b wrote: For profit:
The key to understanding Church finances is to understand that they are a means to an end. They allow the Church to carry
So how many impoverished LDS children get to suffer and die from preventable problems until the end justifies the means?
It's just so inherently against Zion that I cannot wrap my head around it, nor do I really want to.
I don't have an answer for that, it's awful, and it's something that us members need to question our church officials about. Its not a perfect system. I'm just saying that I don't see that there is Ill intent by the business side of the church.
I have the word for it. Antichrist.
It rejects His words and embraces Babylon that Great Whore. We are an adulterous people. Wo wo wo be unto us.

Valiance
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Valiance »

sen6b wrote:
Valiance wrote:
sen6b wrote:I agree WAY more needs to be done to help the less fortunate but the mall wasn't built off tithing funds.
The church invests a generous percentage of tithing donations into real estate which sits in an interest bearing account for several years which is then used to fund massive, costly, for-profit construction projects like City Creek. So to say no tithing funds were used is misleading.
You mean money used to buy land used to build temples and churches on or for agricultural purposes? That happens to sit in an account waiting for local approval, and collects interest just by the mere fact that it's in a bank? Which real estate are you referring to? And where do you get your info? Just curious.
The information is public and readily available online by just doing a quick search about it.

Valiance
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Valiance »

sen6b wrote:I'm just saying that I don't see that there is Ill intent by the business side of the church.
There may be no ill-intent, but it's whether or not it's an appropriate use of sacred funds. The scriptures give their answer quite plainly if you look up fine sanctuaries, vanity and robbing the poor in the index/topical guides. :(

eyes2see
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by eyes2see »

You know, I'd have had an extra $750 to donate to starving LDS children in Guatemala but I just got hit up for Friends of Scouting... [/sarc]

Valiance
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Valiance »

eyes2see wrote:You know, I'd have had an extra $750 to donate to starving LDS children in Guatemala but I just got hit up for Friends of Scouting... [/sarc]
While Scouting is always a worthy cause to donate to, even it is corrupt financially at the top. There was a story that was run last year here locally about the obscene salaries for those at the top in the scouting organization and their lifestyles as a result of benefiting from donations and purchases by parents for scouting materials/merchandise and how it then has the audacity to turn around and ask its volunteers to beg for money from people by raising the expected donation from $35 to $100. Nothing is immune from corruption anymore. :(

eyes2see
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by eyes2see »

You know what would be fabulous?

If a ward in the developed world was partnered with a ward in the developing world and the wealthier ward sent their excess fast offerings to them instead of to SLC. If 40 families gave $50, we'd quadruple their annual fast offering intake every. single. month.

Why aren't we doing this?

Valiance
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Valiance »

eyes2see wrote:You know what would be fabulous?

If a ward in the developed world was partnered with a ward in the developing world and the wealthier ward sent their excess fast offerings to them instead of to SLC. If 40 families gave $50, we'd quadruple their annual fast offering intake every. single. month.

Why aren't we doing this?
The church used to allow what was brought in by local units to stay in those local units to be used as necessary, but many years ago, it started requiring all wards to send its donated monies to Salt Lake City and then the church re-distributes those funds back to the local wards based on sacrament meeting attendance and how it sees fit. So, you could have a well-to-do/wealthy ward where a million dollars comes in over a month, but since they only have 35% sacrament meeting attendance, they only get a small portion of that back to their local unit for the Bishop to use as needed, regardless of the necessary funds required to meet the ward's budget even though what came in was more than enough to meet that ward's budget. At least this is how it was explained to me a few years ago. I was in our Bishopric from 1999-2005 and saw firsthand the inequality that exists. Our ward has always done well with financial contributions, but our sacrament meeting attendance, for whatever reason, has always been below 50% and so the funds we were allotted back were always far less than what we brought in and it has always resulted in tepid and mediocre budgets for scouting, the youth, welfare recipients, etc. to the point where funds are usually dried up by summer each year which then required fund-raisers to begin in earnest.

eyes2see
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by eyes2see »

Valiance wrote:
eyes2see wrote:You know what would be fabulous?

If a ward in the developed world was partnered with a ward in the developing world and the wealthier ward sent their excess fast offerings to them instead of to SLC. If 40 families gave $50, we'd quadruple their annual fast offering intake every. single. month.

Why aren't we doing this?
The church used to do things differently up until about 1970 or so when it started requiring all wards to send its donated monies to Salt Lake City and then the church re-distributes those funds back to the local wards based on sacrament meeting attendance. So, you could have a well-to-do/wealthy ward where a million dollars comes in over a month, but since they only have 35% sacrament meeting attendance, they only get a small portion of that back to their local unit for the Bishop to use as needed, regardless of the necessary funds required to meet the ward's budget even though what came in was more than enough to meet budget. At least this is how it was explained to me a few years ago.
Valiance,
I'm talking about bypassing Salt Lake entirely. I'm talking about helping each other the way God intended - brother to brother, sister to sister. If my ward has no current need then ALL the intake from fast offering goes to our sister ward. If we have a need, we skim that off the top fill the need, and send the rest. Another thing it might do for the wealthier congregations is make us more responsible when it comes to requests for help.

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Provision
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Provision »

eyes2see wrote:You know what would be fabulous?

If a ward in the developed world was partnered with a ward in the developing world and the wealthier ward sent their excess fast offerings to them instead of to SLC. If 40 families gave $50, we'd quadruple their annual fast offering intake every. single. month.

Why aren't we doing this?
Thank you that is a great idea

But don't you think that if the lord wanted this to happen he would have inspired his Anointed to come up with the idea and it would have already happened

Clearly there is a reason he doesn't want that to happen

Clearly he is comfortable with the investment arm of the church continuing as it is and little worm infested Ecuadorian childrens parents learn the blessing of helping themselves and each other

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Provision
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Provision »

eyes2see wrote:
Valiance wrote:
eyes2see wrote:You know what would be fabulous?

If a ward in the developed world was partnered with a ward in the developing world and the wealthier ward sent their excess fast offerings to them instead of to SLC. If 40 families gave $50, we'd quadruple their annual fast offering intake every. single. month.

Why aren't we doing this?
The church used to do things differently up until about 1970 or so when it started requiring all wards to send its donated monies to Salt Lake City and then the church re-distributes those funds back to the local wards based on sacrament meeting attendance. So, you could have a well-to-do/wealthy ward where a million dollars comes in over a month, but since they only have 35% sacrament meeting attendance, they only get a small portion of that back to their local unit for the Bishop to use as needed, regardless of the necessary funds required to meet the ward's budget even though what came in was more than enough to meet budget. At least this is how it was explained to me a few years ago.
Valiance,
I'm talking about bypassing Salt Lake entirely. I'm talking about helping each other the way God intended - brother to brother, sister to sister. If my ward has no current need then ALL the intake from fast offering goes to our sister ward. If we have a need, we skim that off the top fill the need, and send the rest. Another thing it might do for the wealthier congregations is make us more responsible when it comes to requests for help.
Isnt that preaching apostasy?

sevenator
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by sevenator »

Tithing =/= Fast Offering funds, and fast offerings are accounted for at the local (ward) level. If a ward goes into the red with their fast offerings (i.e. - more going out than coming in), then the stake makes up the difference to a point and so on if things go beyond the fast offering means of the stake. I'm not putting this out there to refute the OP or anyone else, or to vindicate the way things are, just that this is the way things work. The OP makes me wonder if it isn't time to change that. If we've moved around at all within the Church, we know that there are affluent wards and stakes and not-so-affluent wards and stakes.

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with re-vamping the current setup. Unused fast offering funds from more affluent wards/stakes could be made available to stake presidents and bishops in poor areas. These funds would still fall under the stewardship of the stake presidents and bishops in those poorer areas to be used with the appropriate discernment and care, thus retaining the structure and stewardship appointed by the Lord to govern His church. I fail to see how anyone would have a problem with this, as fast offering funds are accounted for separately of tithing funds when they are received as well as when they are distributed to those in need. Those who contribute fast offerings would still be assured that their donations were being used as intended, though perhaps not in their immediate area. I would not have any issues with this.

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Matthew.B
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by Matthew.B »

How does this
Valiance wrote:The church used to allow what was brought in by local units to stay in those local units to be used as necessary, but many years ago, it started requiring all wards to send its donated monies to Salt Lake City and then the church re-distributes those funds back to the local wards based on sacrament meeting attendance and how it sees fit
Mesh with this (from the article):
As this principle of local self-sufficiency (autosuficiencia) is applied by stake and ward leaders in the LDCs, it means that a ward, on average, can expect no more than $150 annually from the general fast-offering funds distributed through the area office. One wonders why stakes and wards cannot be given more from the general fast-offering funds to relieve premature death and disability of children. Instead, instructions to stake presidents from area leaders restrict the use of such funds to "unusual or emergency circumstances," generally interpreted to mean needs for cancer treatment, extensive surgery, prostheses, and other chronic conditions.Requests from stakes have to be justified in writing, and they are often turned down. In my interviews, stake presidents often made comments such as: "We know if we ask for help from the area, we'll be turned down," or "we got a letter from the area office instructing us not to ask for help unless it's an emergency," or "I asked for help but was told by the area office that they didn't have enough money this year," and so on. Not one stake president or bishop to whom I spoke had been given any funds from area offices to meet such critical needs as minimal nutrition, vaccines, de-worming, or medicines for diarrhea or respiratory infections, which are the most cost-effective interventions by far in order to save lives."
Are both true? Or is there a piece of the puzzle missing?

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dlbww
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by dlbww »

.
Last edited by dlbww on September 26th, 2015, 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eyes2see
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by eyes2see »

Provision wrote:
eyes2see wrote: Valiance,
I'm talking about bypassing Salt Lake entirely. I'm talking about helping each other the way God intended - brother to brother, sister to sister. If my ward has no current need then ALL the intake from fast offering goes to our sister ward. If we have a need, we skim that off the top fill the need, and send the rest. Another thing it might do for the wealthier congregations is make us more responsible when it comes to requests for help.
Isnt that preaching apostasy?

On this forum, just about everything is called apostasy at some point. ;)

A program of the magnitude described above would have to be instituted by the church. "Bypassing SL" just means sending the money directly to the sister ward rather than routing it through the CB first.

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iWitness
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Re: LDS kids dying and suffering in poor countries

Post by iWitness »

anewtongue wrote:Provision thanks for drawing attention to this. It's a horrible indictment against us as a people. For anyone interested in doing something about the malnourished children please consider adopting a stake with some friends or family through the Liahona Children's Foundation. liahonachildren dot org. 100% of donated funds go to the cause.
Thanks for pointing out where we can send money, anewtongue.
eyes2see wrote:You know what would be fabulous?

If a ward in the developed world was partnered with a ward in the developing world and the wealthier ward sent their excess fast offerings to them instead of to SLC. If 40 families gave $50, we'd quadruple their annual fast offering intake every. single. month.

Why aren't we doing this?
We could start taking matters into our own hands by helping these people. PM me if anyone wants to start taking matters into our own hands by paying tithing to help these people.

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