Melvin Fish

[truth]

As a result of reading this post, I had the sincere pleasure of meeting Melvin and Gwena Fish earlier today. They are two of the most welcoming and loving people I've ever had the chance to meet. They were generous with both their time and resources, and I feel as though I have just extended my family.

I had not known about them until yesterday and so have only begun to read the first of Dr. Fish's books: Healing the Inner Self: From Darkness Into Light. I feel a great hope in how the Lord is leading me toward so many caring and knowing individuals. Thank you, MatthewB for the post.

We also talked about what a positive difference and greater understanding your book Conquering Spiritual Evil has given me, Doug. Thank you! I keep thinking if I had only known some of this stuff a few years ago, I could have been a much greater help to my children. I also think having this greater understanding of things both light and dark allows us to forgive and to love that much easier . . . or wider? . . .greater? . . .more completely.

[Halm]

I attended a meeting at a house once where Melvin Fish and his wife came and taught some things. I don't have a problem with either of them as they both seemed very nice and I believe had an honest desire to help people.
I would say that the thing that most caused me to question some of the things being taught is that they were teaching to basically convert evil spirits and tell them to go to the light etc. I haven't seen that as a pattern anywhere in the scriptures or even by the Savior (ex. casting the evil spirits into herd of swine.....although they did request to go into the swine but the Savior didn't try to convert them or send them to the light.)
I didn't find out until more recently that he had been excommunicated. I would advise to discern what people are teaching and take it to Heavenly Father to find the truth.

It's important to establish definitions here. Here is how I understand it.

"Evil Spirit" or Devils are the third part that were cast out of Heaven for rebellion.

Unclean Spirits are those who have lived on this earth and died in their sins and have not moved on but instead will try and attach to or possess those still living.

I don't know a ton about Mel Fish, but it doesn't seem to me like he's advocating that we "convert" evil spirits (remember the definition) and send them to the light. Unclean spirits are a totally different ballgame. It wasn't evil spirits the Savior sent into the swine, if I remember right, but unclean spirits who, by keeping their first estate, earned the privilege of receiving a body. Evil spirits were simply commanded to depart. So I think it is the unclean spirits that brother Fish is teaching to try and send to the light...to help them move on in their progression.

In the scriptural account it was demonic spirits that were sent into the swine....not unclean spirits. But, yes at this meeting I attended he was advocating and teaching sending evil spirits to the light, not just unclean spirits.

This is the one area where I would have a disagreement with Mel. From our experiences I agree with katmr. In the past Mel taught that all evil entities could be sent to the light. I don't know if he still does that or not. I believe those that are of the second estate can (these would be earth bound spirits and minions) but those that did not complete the first estate and progress to the second one cannot be sent to the light. An example of the latter would be the one third part that followed Lucifer and therefore are not eligible to progress or be "sent to the light." Also those entities that are creations of Satan are not of the second estate and are not eligible for progression and need to be sent back to their maker or hell. There are other entities but I don't think this would be the place to discuss them.

All this being said, I would still stand up for Mel any time. He has helped many people with their problems and helped get them through really tough experiences with his gentleness and supreme kindness.
Just wanted to add that I feel it's okay to not agree with someone and yet understand that they do much good in the world. Elder Eyring said something in his Oct. 1012 conference talk that I didn't agree with and still don't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a great talk and that I didn't learn from it. And I don't think less of him either, love the man. Same with Mel. I would hope you extend me the same courtesy, I have been wrong on many occasions and will still be in the future.
Doug

[Ruth]

It's important to establish definitions here. Here is how I understand it.

"Evil Spirit" or Devils are the third part that were cast out of Heaven for rebellion.

Unclean Spirits are those who have lived on this earth and died in their sins and have not moved on but instead will try and attach to or possess those still living.

I don't know a ton about Mel Fish, but it doesn't seem to me like he's advocating that we "convert" evil spirits (remember the definition) and send them to the light. Unclean spirits are a totally different ballgame. It wasn't evil spirits the Savior sent into the swine, if I remember right, but unclean spirits who, by keeping their first estate, earned the privilege of receiving a body. Evil spirits were simply commanded to depart. So I think it is the unclean spirits that brother Fish is teaching to try and send to the light...to help them move on in their progression.

In the scriptural account it was demonic spirits that were sent into the swine....not unclean spirits. But, yes at this meeting I attended he was advocating and teaching sending evil spirits to the light, not just unclean spirits.

This is the one area where I would have a disagreement with Mel. From our experiences I agree with katmr. In the past Mel taught that all evil entities could be sent to the light. I don't know if he still does that or not. I believe those that are of the second estate can (these would be earth bound spirits and minions) but those that did not complete the first estate and progress to the second one cannot be sent to the light. An example of the latter would be the one third part that followed Lucifer and therefore are not eligible to progress or be "sent to the light." Also those entities that are creations of Satan are not of the second estate and are not eligible for progression and need to be sent back to their maker or hell. There are other entities but I don't think this would be the place to discuss them.

All this being said, I would still stand up for Mel any time. He has helped many people with their problems and helped get them through really tough experiences with his gentleness and supreme kindness.
Just wanted to add that I feel it's okay to not agree with someone and yet understand that they do much good in the world. Elder Eyring said something in his Oct. 1012 conference talk that I didn't agree with and still don't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a great talk and that I didn't learn from it. And I don't think less of him either, love the man. Same with Mel. I would hope you extend me the same courtesy, I have been wrong on many occasions and will still be in the future.
Doug

This is something that I have actually wondered as well. I've never listened to Mel Fish but remember you discussing this very thing. I had agreed and had always believed we are to work on our own salvation first before even thinking about trying to save or teach other spirits (and I have a long way to go first). But I had an experience that got me thinking about this again.
During this experience, I had remembered reading Joseph Smith's sermon:

All sins, and all blasphemies, and every transgression, except one, that man can be guilty of, may be forgiven; and there is a salvation for all men, either in this world or the world to come, who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there being a provision either in this world or the world of spirits. Hence God hath made a provision that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which cannot be remitted to him either in this world or the world of spirits.

I took this to mean that even this spirit working for the other side has a chance to call to Jesus Christ, repent, and be saved. I still wonder though, we are supposed to go through hell to get to heaven... are we sure we're not supposed to help a few of those false messengers on our way through? Just as you would if you were constantly being bombarded by Jehovah's Witnesses, Methodists, or Baptists? Wouldn't you share your knowledge of truth and bear your testimony?

[Halm]

It's a slippery slope, to be sure, and Satan can perform good miracles so that you can trust in some process that is outside of your personal worthiness. ........ I would beware of that, and instead focus on being worthy to heal through the Priesthood.

So my friend, a woman, a sister in the gospel, whose patriarchal blessing tells her that she has the gift of healing and should use it to bless the saints is of Satan? She has no priesthood according to what you probably believe, so how can she do healing work? How can she do what her PB tells her to do since we can only be healed through the Priesthood?
Doug

No answer to my question? How about the woman I met in the SLC area that has the gift of seeing "earthbound" spirits. When directed by the Spirit she will talk to them of Christ and help them move on. You could say she is an LDS "ghost whisperer." Her bishop got wind of this and called her in. He was not happy with what she was doing and told her to quit seeing spirits. She told him that she didn't know how to do that. He got so frustrated with her and said they would go see the Stake President. A week or so later she is with him in the SP office. This time she brought her husband along. The SP demanded that she quit seeing spirits so that her gift would go away and she would stop doing this. Her husband got frustrated and said that she didn't have an "on and off switch" for her spiritual gift. Just then she realized she did and told the SP that her spiritual gift would go away if she sinned. She then asked the SP which sin he wanted her to start with, the bigger the sin the faster the gift would go away he had demanded. He let her go, along with her gift, though he did ask her to be discreet about what she does. Seems some of the LDS members can't accept what the Lord has given her and he didn't want them upset.

So is she of Satan, she has no priesthood according to many here?

What about the woman above that I mentioned whose gifts were enumerated in her Pat. Blessing? Before I moved to where I live now I developed heart disease. After moving here I was having some issues and started to pray about it. The Spirit told me to call this woman. I had no idea why. At the time I knew nothing of her Pat. Blessing. She came over to our home and said that she'd love to do "energy work" on me, that one of her gifts was the gift of healing. (Also enumerated in her PB). That is when she told me about her PB and that she was to use these gifts to help the saints, just as the scriptures say. She had brought her 18 yr. old daughter along that also has spiritual sight. They both did their "energy work" on me and I felt immediately better. It was interesting since they both had spiritual sight and could "see" into me. They were describing exactly where my pains were and worked in that area.

Is this of Satan as several of you have declared? Or since it was declared by a man with Priesthood, a Stake Patriarch, that she would have these gifts and was to use them that makes it okay? But if a woman or even a man is told by the Spirit they have such gifts and start to use them they are of Satan?

BTW, this woman is again in hiding. Seems we saints can't accept her gifts, even if declared in her PB. Just about everywhere she has lived she had been declared to be evil, a witch, of Satan, by active LDS that say a woman can't do these things, that only priesthood can heal, that so called "energy work" is of Satan. So none of you that feel this way need to feel threatened by her, she has again been beaten into submission by us saints. Does that mean that she is under condemnation for not using her gifts to bless the lives of the saints as her PB told her she should do? Or are we under condemnation for our lack of belief and what we do to the gifted?

At times we really are a sad lot.
Doug

[Halm]

I can certainly understand the charge of priestcraft -- at least on his website, there's no real explanation of his methods and it's very much a "pay me money to learn the secret knowledge" sort of thing. I don't know if he intends it to be that way, but that's how it comes off to me on my first perusal of his site. Lots and lots of self-help people operate that way, and I generally steer clear when I see that modus operandi.

I also stay clear of the spiritual self-help sections in Deseret Book. Though that is where you find books written by BYU talking heads, professors and even General Authorities. I wonder about their methods of making me "pay money to learn the secret" of getting into the Celestial Kingdom.

In case you think I am jesting. Years ago I heard a talk on BYU TV by the then president of the BYU. It was on the atonement and was the best talk I had heard to that point in my life on that subject. I searched to see if it would be given again on BYU TV. It wasn't on their schedule. So I called the man's office and asked for a copy of the talk. The secretary asked me to call back. I did then next day and was informed that she had talked to him and the talk would be made available in a book he was writing on the Atonement of Christ, that I could get it there. I begged her to get me a copy now as I knew that most likely the book would not be out for a long time. She said no, that he would not let me have one, that I would have to buy the book. I then mumbled something about priestcraft, as many here do and she hung up on me.

That is the "modus operandi" that I have seen. If we are going to disparage someone, let's make it fair and do both sides of the coin, don't you think? Or maybe we just ought to offer a cloak of charity and ask Father to forgive us of our own sins and not worry so much about others. But hey, then this forum wouldn't be so much fun if we didn't throw mud at each other would it? My point is we all have problems, even the GA's, so let's give them the same charity we should give a Mel Fish. Or give a Mel Fish the same charity we should give the GA's.
Doug

[BMC]

Its a shame we place limitations on God, and who He calls and gives His gifts too. We bring upon ourselves cursings instead of blessings.

From the 1842 RS minutes, Joseph said, http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1842/28Apr42.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No matter who believeth; these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils &c. should follow all that believe whether male or female. He asked this Society if they could not see by this sweeping stroke, that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority which is confer’d on them...Those ordain’d to lead the Society, are authoriz’d to appoint to different offices as the circumstances shall require...

Instruction delivered at a meeting of the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Ill. on Wednesday March 30, 1842 in the upper room of Joseph Smith's Red Brick Store
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1842/30Mar42.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Source: Nauvoo Relief Society Minutes (Eliza R. Snow)

Pres. Joseph Smith arose--spoke of the organization of the [Relief] society. Said he was deeply interested that it might be built up to the Most High in an acceptable manner--that its rules must be observed--that none should be received into the society but those who were worthy. Proposed that the [Relief] society go into a close examination of every candidate--that they were going too fast--that the society should grow up by degrees; should commence with a few individuals--thus have a select society of the virtuous, and those who will walk circumspectly. Commended them for their zeal but said some times their zeal was not according to knowledge. One principal object of the institution was to purge out iniquity--said they must be extremely careful in all their examinations or the consequences would be serious.

Said all difficulties which might and would cross our way must be surmounted, though the soul be tried, the heart faint, and hands hand down--must not retrace our steps. That there must be decision of character aside from sympathy. That when instructed we must obey that voice, observe the constitution, that the blessings of heaven may rest down upon us. All must act in concert or nothing can be done, that the [Relief] society should move according to the ancient Priesthood, hence there should be a select society, separate from all the evils of the world, choice, virtuous and holy. Said he was going to make of this [Relief] society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day--as in Paul's day--that it is the privilege of each member to live long and enjoy health. Pres. Smith proposed that the brethren withdraw that the [Relief] society might proceed to business--that those wishing to join might have their names presented at the next meeting.

Sisters Laying on Hand to Heal Sick - Shadow of Temple Service

He said the reason of these remarks being made was, that some little things was circulating in the [Relief] Society, that some persons were not going right in laying hands on the sick &C. Said if he had common sympathies, would rejoice that the sick could be heal'd. that the time had not been before, that these things could be in their proper order- that the church is not now organiz'd in its proper order, and cannot be until the Temple is completed_ _ _ Prest. Smith continued the subject by adverting to the commission given to the ancient apostles "Go ye into all the world" &c. __ no matter who believeth; these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils &c. should follow all that believe whether male or female. He ask'd the [Relief] Society if they could not see by this sweeping stroke that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority which is conferr'd on them- and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on.

While women may not hold the Priesthood as we understand it, they do hold keys, given to them in the temple that belong to the priesthood and hold or posses the power of God through faith and the Gift of the Holy Ghost through baptism, and through the power of the Holy Ghost and their faith if a woman can lay hands on and heal, in the words of Joseph Smith, "if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on."

Respecting the female laying on hands, he further remarked, there could be no evil in it if God gave his sanction by healing- that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on the sick than in wetting the face with water_ that it is no sin for any body to do it that has faith, or if the sick has faith to be heal'd by the administration.

[bethany]

Here's a thought, for those of you with the great fortune of not needing Dr. Fish's assistance, get on your knees & thank God that it doesn't matter what he teaches as pertaining to you & yours. For those of you who are compelled to believe whatever it takes to be free of your afflictions, don't be afraid to venture into his court of ideas. I've witnessed miracles for those among us who are most afflicted & for whom relief has not been afforded through normal channels.

[Matthew.B]

So I ended up having two sessions with Dr. Fish over the phone. He's helped immeasurably, and the visualization techniques and approaches from his books are absolutely amazing at helping bring spiritual peace to my soul.

He's also good-natured and willing to give hours out of his day to help a complete stranger. I thank the Lord that I was able to talk to Brother Fish.

100% Matthew.B approved. If someone else out there needs some kind of serious counseling help, Dr. Fish might be your man. Check out his books.

[bethany]

that is so exciting, i called him years ago when we needed extra help & he was very gracious. called him back a couple more times & he & his dear wife were both so helpful. they are the loveliest people. had another interesting experience... i recommended his video to a family member than does some energy but is not lds... she bought it & waited for the Spirit to tell her to watch it. she knew she had unclean spirits in her home. as soon as she was done, she contacted me to tell me how much she loved it & knew that her house was finally clean. she asked me if she got rid of the entities... i checked... nope. Dr. Fish got rid of them via the video. it was cool to see her so excited. she had a lot of trouble in her home before that.

[a_member]

I also stay clear of the spiritual self-help sections in Deseret Book. Though that is where you find books written by BYU talking heads, professors and even General Authorities. I wonder about their methods of making me "pay money to learn the secret" of getting into the Celestial Kingdom.

In case you think I am jesting. Years ago I heard a talk on BYU TV by the then president of the BYU. It was on the atonement and was the best talk I had heard to that point in my life on that subject. I searched to see if it would be given again on BYU TV. It wasn't on their schedule. So I called the man's office and asked for a copy of the talk. The secretary asked me to call back. I did then next day and was informed that she had talked to him and the talk would be made available in a book he was writing on the Atonement of Christ, that I could get it there. I begged her to get me a copy now as I knew that most likely the book would not be out for a long time. She said no, that he would not let me have one, that I would have to buy the book. I then mumbled something about priestcraft, as many here do and she hung up on me.

That is the "modus operandi" that I have seen. If we are going to disparage someone, let's make it fair and do both sides of the coin, don't you think? Or maybe we just ought to offer a cloak of charity and ask Father to forgive us of our own sins and not worry so much about others. But hey, then this forum wouldn't be so much fun if we didn't throw mud at each other would it? My point is we all have problems, even the GA's, so let's give them the same charity we should give a Mel Fish. Or give a Mel Fish the same charity we should give the GA's.
Doug

I agree, I want to be clear that I'm not singling anyone out here for doing something that's above-and-beyond what other people do. I usually don't buy "supplemental" materials at all, regardless of author, when it comes to doctrinal stuff. If I can't get it through the usual outlets then I pass it by. If I'm going to read stuff about the Church that's published outside the official and freely-available channels, it's generally history. Learning how real people dealt with real problems is my general solution to life's ills. I think when we share our experiences that's about the best "self-help" anyone can hope to get. That being said, I'm not against various healing practices (oddly the human race survived for thousands of years without modern medicine), but I'm also not against modern medicine (I'd personally be dead if I'd lived a couple of thousand years ago). I think both have a place, and especially when it comes to the broad category of "healing" I'm of the opinion that the placebo is as good as a cure if it works for you.

[topcat]

Has Dr. Fish died?

[Lizzy60]

Has Dr. Fish died?

Sadly, yes.

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/deser ... =191371320