How can I know?

[Simon]

When it comes to dicerning spirits, it does not only refere to dicerning those spirits that appear to us in a vision, but it also referes to dicerning those Spirits that reside in a humanbody, our fellwoman.


There will always be such that claim to have had great spiritual experiences, but that will still teach false doctrine by that authority.

I could not find better words then Denvers, so I will just use his description of how to dicern true from false Spirits, and in that sense to also dicern true from false teachers.. I will highlight some of those points I find especially important with regards to certain doctrines being taught lately

Denver Snuffer

Just because you have a "spiritual experience" you cannot trust it will invariably be from God. True spirits will: 

-Testify of Christ. ( and deny not his role or make it appear less )
-Lead to repentance.
-Be consistent with existing scripture. ( Yes, yes, yes, my opposite of the wo, wo , wo )
-Lead you to be submissive to authority in the church. ( Very interesting )
-Edify and enlighten your mind. ( Which contention doesnt )
-Be understandable and not cause confusion. ( Teach it in plainness, and not reveal too much deep knowledge )
-Cause light to grow within you.
-Turn you toward Christ, not men.
-Never cause pride.
-Make you a better servant.
-Increase your love of your fellow man.
-Clothe you with charity for the failings of others.
-Conform to the true whisperings of the Holy Ghost you previously have received.
-Leave you humble and grateful for God's condescension.
-Make you want to bring others to the light.
-Be grounded in love toward God and all mankind.
-Lead you to rejoice.


False spirits will:
-Deny Christ. ( Which does not mean they do not come close to testifying of him correctly )
-Cause pride.
-Make you believe you are better because of the experience.
-Contradict the scriptures. ( Again, yes, yes, yes )
-Appeal to carnality and self-indulgence.
-Lead to rebellion against the church's right to administer ordinances.
-Cause confusion. ( By teaching too much, by teaching not plain enough )
-Lead to ambition to control others.
-Make you intolerant of others' failings.
-Seek self fulfillment rather than service.
-Appeal to your vanity and assure you that you are a great person.
-Bring darkness. ( And contention )
-Repulse the Holy Ghost.
-Prevent you from repenting and forsaking sins.
-Interfere with serving others.
-Focus on yourself rather than the needs of others.

Do not think all spiritual experiences can be trusted. There is no difference between the activities of deceiving spirits today and those in Kirtland, as well as those in the New Testament times. If you follow the Lord you must still test the spirits and only follow those which point to Christ. (1 John 4: 1.) Even Joseph Smith had to ask God about some of the phenomena going on in Kirtland before he knew which were of God and which were deceiving.

I can testify that each single of these points is a hundret percent correct. Denver knows excactly what he is talking about.

Let's not get deceived by the great knowledge some seem to posess, Lets not get confused by the strange doctrines some teach, Lets not get contentios by the example some set. We have been given so much, and I am gratefull for that

[Simon]

Denver Snuffer
Whenever there is an increase in spiritual manifestations, there is always an increase in both true and false spiritual phenomena. You do not get one without the other.

In Kirtland, new converts who were overzealous to participate in the new heavenly manifestations coming as a result of Joseph Smith's claims, opened themselves up to receiving influences they could not understand, and did not test for truthfulness. They were so delighted to have any kind of experience, they trusted anything "spiritual" was from God. As a result, there were many undignified things, degrading conduct, foolish behavior and evil influences which crept in among the saints. Joseph received a revelation in May 1831 concerning this troubling development. In it the Lord cautioned there were "many false spirits deceiving the world." (D&C 50: 2.) That Satan wanted to overthrow what the Lord was doing. (D&C 50: 3.) The presence of hypocrites and of people harboring secret sins and abominations caused false claims to be accepted. (D&C 50: 4, 6-7.) It is required for all people to proceed in truth and in righteousness (D&C 50: 9) if they are going to avoid deception. Meaning that unrepentant and unforgiven men will not be able to distinguish between a true and a false spirit.

All spiritual gifts, including distinguishing between true and false spirits, requires the Holy Ghost, given through obedience to the truth, which allows a person to distinguish between truth and error. (D&C 50: 17-23.) The truth is like light, and when you follow the light of truth it grows inside you until you have a "perfect day" in which there is no more darkness,but everything is illuminated by the light of the spirit within you. (D&C 50: 24.)

The revelation clarifies that a preacher of truth will become only a servant. He will not claim greatness, but will seek only to give truth; as a result of which false spirits will be subject to him. (D&C 50: 26-27.) But this only comes as a result of repenting of all sin, because the light of a perfect day cannot arise when men harbor evil desires and inappropriate ambitions within their hearts. (D&C 50: 28-29.) Truth will not leave you confused, but will enlighten your understanding. (D&C 50: 31.)

From this you can see how necessary it is for each of us to continually repent, conduct our lives in conformity with such truth as you presently understand, and avoid deliberate wrongdoing in order to be able to distinguish between a true and a false spirit. You must attract light. It is attracted by obedience to such light as you already have. When you proceed forward using the light you already possess to attract more light it will grow in one, consistent and truthful manner from a lesser to a greater light. All of it conforming to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Ambition in spiritual gifts leads to acceptance of evil influences. As part of the same problem in Kirtland, in September of the previous year, Hiram Page wanted to be like Joseph, and was able to attract a deceiving spirit to communicate with him through a seer stone. But the commandments he received were designed to lead him into error. (D&C 28: 11.)

Truth will always testify of Christ and lead to repentance. It will lead you to do good, not evil. To serve God and not follow men. To repent and forsake darkness which appeals to the carnal mind. (See Moroni 7: 12-19.)

[Lilli]

When it comes to dicerning spirits, it does not only refere to dicerning those spirits that appear to us in a vision, but it also referes to dicerning those Spirits that reside in a humanbody, our fellwoman.


There will always be such that claim to have had great spiritual experiences, but that will still teach false doctrine by that authority.

I could not find better words then Denvers, so I will just use his description of how to dicern true from false Spirits, and in that sense to also dicern true from false teachers.. I will highlight some of those points I find especially important with regards to certain doctrines being taught lately

Denver Snuffer

Just because you have a "spiritual experience" you cannot trust it will invariably be from God. True spirits will: 

-Testify of Christ. ( and deny not his role or make it appear less )
-Lead to repentance.
-Be consistent with existing scripture. ( Yes, yes, yes, my opposite of the wo, wo , wo )
-Lead you to be submissive to authority in the church. ( Very interesting )
-Edify and enlighten your mind. ( Which contention doesnt )
-Be understandable and not cause confusion. ( Teach it in plainness, and not reveal too much deep knowledge )
-Cause light to grow within you.
-Turn you toward Christ, not men.
-Never cause pride.
-Make you a better servant.
-Increase your love of your fellow man.
-Clothe you with charity for the failings of others.
-Conform to the true whisperings of the Holy Ghost you previously have received.
-Leave you humble and grateful for God's condescension.
-Make you want to bring others to the light.
-Be grounded in love toward God and all mankind.
-Lead you to rejoice.


False spirits will:
-Deny Christ. ( Which does not mean they do not come close to testifying of him correctly )
-Cause pride.
-Make you believe you are better because of the experience.
-Contradict the scriptures. ( Again, yes, yes, yes )
-Appeal to carnality and self-indulgence.
-Lead to rebellion against the church's right to administer ordinances.
-Cause confusion. ( By teaching too much, by teaching not plain enough )
-Lead to ambition to control others.
-Make you intolerant of others' failings.
-Seek self fulfillment rather than service.
-Appeal to your vanity and assure you that you are a great person.
-Bring darkness. ( And contention )
-Repulse the Holy Ghost.
-Prevent you from repenting and forsaking sins.
-Interfere with serving others.
-Focus on yourself rather than the needs of others.

Do not think all spiritual experiences can be trusted. There is no difference between the activities of deceiving spirits today and those in Kirtland, as well as those in the New Testament times. If you follow the Lord you must still test the spirits and only follow those which point to Christ. (1 John 4: 1.) Even Joseph Smith had to ask God about some of the phenomena going on in Kirtland before he knew which were of God and which were deceiving.

I disagree with many of Denver's criteria for discerning spirits. I believe he himself is deceived by false spirits. For I know many 'false' spirits/people who constantly teach people to believe in Christ, to repent, to be submissive to Church authority, teach love, forgiveness, etc. etc.

It is the hallmark of a false spirit to teach most all truth and wonderful things, to convince people they are 'true' spirits, but then sneak in a few falsehoods that hardly no one notices.

There are many false Christs/false Spirits appearing to people and convincing them they have seen the real Christ.

The devil is very smart, he knows he's not going to convince as many people if he just teaches all false things, he has to pretend to be a true spirit, and preach mostly true things to really deceived everyone.

Joseph Smith taught that only those who possess true charity won't be deceived (by false spirits), and having true charity is a very tall order, a very rare trait, that even prophets often didn't achieve or maintain.

Joseph Smith also taught that people think false prophets are true prophets because they preach so near the very same things.

Thus discerning spirits depends on 'our' beliefs, qualifications and righteousness, not a spirits beliefs or teachings, for false spirits will usually preach the same things as true spirits, that's why everyone falls for them, except those with true charity.

And actually even true spirits/righteous people, can unknowingly but sincerely sometimes teach false things because they are not perfect. So again, 'we' are the one's who must possess charity, the pure love of Christ, and pure knowledge, if we want to detect all falsehood from either true or false spirits.

[dewajack]

When it comes to dicerning spirits, it does not only refere to dicerning those spirits that appear to us in a vision, but it also referes to dicerning those Spirits that reside in a humanbody, our fellwoman.


There will always be such that claim to have had great spiritual experiences, but that will still teach false doctrine by that authority.

I could not find better words then Denvers, so I will just use his description of how to dicern true from false Spirits, and in that sense to also dicern true from false teachers.. I will highlight some of those points I find especially important with regards to certain doctrines being taught lately

Denver Snuffer

Just because you have a "spiritual experience" you cannot trust it will invariably be from God. True spirits will:

-Testify of Christ. ( and deny not his role or make it appear less )
-Lead to repentance.
-Be consistent with existing scripture. ( Yes, yes, yes, my opposite of the wo, wo , wo )
-Lead you to be submissive to authority in the church. ( Very interesting )
-Edify and enlighten your mind. ( Which contention doesnt )
-Be understandable and not cause confusion. ( Teach it in plainness, and not reveal too much deep knowledge )
-Cause light to grow within you.
-Turn you toward Christ, not men.
-Never cause pride.
-Make you a better servant.
-Increase your love of your fellow man.
-Clothe you with charity for the failings of others.
-Conform to the true whisperings of the Holy Ghost you previously have received.
-Leave you humble and grateful for God's condescension.
-Make you want to bring others to the light.
-Be grounded in love toward God and all mankind.
-Lead you to rejoice.


False spirits will:
-Deny Christ. ( Which does not mean they do not come close to testifying of him correctly )
-Cause pride.
-Make you believe you are better because of the experience.
-Contradict the scriptures. ( Again, yes, yes, yes )
-Appeal to carnality and self-indulgence.
-Lead to rebellion against the church's right to administer ordinances.
-Cause confusion. ( By teaching too much, by teaching not plain enough )
-Lead to ambition to control others.
-Make you intolerant of others' failings.
-Seek self fulfillment rather than service.
-Appeal to your vanity and assure you that you are a great person.
-Bring darkness. ( And contention )
-Repulse the Holy Ghost.
-Prevent you from repenting and forsaking sins.
-Interfere with serving others.
-Focus on yourself rather than the needs of others.

Do not think all spiritual experiences can be trusted. There is no difference between the activities of deceiving spirits today and those in Kirtland, as well as those in the New Testament times. If you follow the Lord you must still test the spirits and only follow those which point to Christ. (1 John 4: 1.) Even Joseph Smith had to ask God about some of the phenomena going on in Kirtland before he knew which were of God and which were deceiving.

I disagree with many of Denver's criteria for discerning spirits. I believe he himself is deceived by false spirits. For I know many 'false' spirits/people who constantly teach people to believe in Christ, to repent, to be submissive to Church authority, teach love, forgiveness, etc. etc.

It is the hallmark of a false spirit to teach most all truth and wonderful things, to convince people they are 'true' spirits, but then sneak in a few falsehoods that hardly no one notices.

There are many false Christs/false Spirits appearing to people and convincing them they have seen the real Christ.

The devil is very smart, he knows he's not going to convince as many people if he just teaches all false things, he has to pretend to be a true spirit, and preach mostly true things to really deceived everyone.

Joseph Smith taught that only those who possess true charity won't be deceived (by false spirits), and having true charity is a very tall order, a very rare trait, that even prophets often didn't achieve or maintain.

Joseph Smith also taught that people think false prophets are true prophets because they preach so near the very same things.

Thus discerning spirits depends on 'our' beliefs, qualifications and righteousness, not a spirits beliefs or teachings, for false spirits will usually preach the same things as true spirits, that's why everyone falls for them, except those with true charity.

And actually even true spirits/righteous people, can unknowingly but sincerely sometimes teach false things because they are not perfect. So again, 'we' are the one's who must possess charity, the pure love of Christ, and pure knowledge, if we want to detect all falsehood from either true or false spirits.

Lilli,

please share with us your criteria, thanks.

[Simon]

I disagree with many of Denver's criteria for discerning spirits. I believe he himself is deceived by false spirits. For I know many 'false' spirits/people who constantly teach people to believe in Christ, to repent, to be submissive to Church authority, teach love, forgiveness, etc. etc.

It is the hallmark of a false spirit to teach most all truth and wonderful things, to convince people they are 'true' spirits, but then sneak in a few falsehoods that hardly no one notices.

There are many false Christs/false Spirits appearing to people and convincing them they have seen the real Christ.

The devil is very smart, he knows he's not going to convince as many people if he just teaches all false things, he has to pretend to be a true spirit, and preach mostly true things to really deceived everyone.

Joseph Smith taught that only those who possess true charity won't be deceived (by false spirits), and having true charity is a very tall order, a very rare trait, that even prophets often didn't achieve or maintain.

Joseph Smith also taught that people think false prophets are true prophets because they preach so near the very same things.

Thus discerning spirits depends on 'our' beliefs, qualifications and righteousness, not a spirits beliefs or teachings, for false spirits will usually preach the same things as true spirits, that's why everyone falls for them, except those with true charity.

And actually even true spirits/righteous people, can unknowingly but sincerely sometimes teach false things because they are not perfect. So again, 'we' are the one's who must possess charity, the pure love of Christ, and pure knowledge, if we want to detect all falsehood from either true or false spirits.

Lilli,

Do you believe that Joseph, Nephi, Alma, or any other prophet was in posession of charity before they experienced their first heavenly encounters ?

Charity is the pure love of Christ, it is love in its most perfect form, and even though it is true that once we posess charity we will be able to dicern, it is usually not given before you will experience heavenly encounters.


I am not Denver, so I wont speak for him, but since I agree with him on these points I want to explain how I see it.

It is not about the single points, it is about all points.
It is not about these points for a short period of time, but about these points getting fullfilled continually.

Satan can teach all these things, but he may not teach all of them, and he definetly wont teach them continually, but will vary from it at some point. Satan will not lead to fulfill these points, he may only use them for a while to deceive us into believing he is a true messanger from God.

All these points are actually all we can do in our imperfect state. If you feel that Denver errs in these points, please explain what else you do different to not get deceived?

I do not believe there is any more that is possible for us to do, unless we are already perfect. All he says is very consistent with scriptures.

Which has actually been one of the main reasons I posted this... The scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon play a vital role in all this, and I disagree with the opinion of some that heavenly messangers may teach contraditive to these scriptures.

[Simon]

Lilli,

please share with us your criteria, thanks.

Please do

[deep water]

Truly, how can I know truth? Christ has told us that their is only one way to truly know truth. He has said that it is by their fruits that ye shall know them. However even the term FRUITS has been changed, molded, to fit or mean something that was not the original meaning that Christ laid out for us to tell them by their fruits. One has to go back to the scriptures and search out Christs understanding of what the term fruits meant to him when he made that statement. To do that, one will have to rethink their whole spiritual experience. We have trusted man to guide our most important duty here in this life for so long that everything has been corrupted to the point that the scriptures and the preached Gospel are at odds with each other. But one will not believe this until they have taken time, "LOTS OF TIME" to search the scriptures thoroughly. Once you have a true understanding of the Gospel of Christ and what Christ was trying to teach you will see the contradiction. I could point out many scriptures and we could argue about what I have said but in the end it will still be your personal responsibility to research and learn the truth. If you have not taken that responsibility upon yourself, and have taken man for a guide, you would not believe anything I would say anyway, so what would be the point.
Christ taught in parables. Why did he teach in parables? Those to whom he taught had never heard the teachings he was teaching, yet he taught in parables. They did not have the opportunity to read the written word like us. No one had daily access to to the written word as we do. And they had to be very lucky to be one of the few to have the privilege to have listened to Christ preach. Yet he preached in parables.Then as well as now one had to, as well as has to search deep to understand Christ's Gospel. It was never, and will never be just laid out for you to just casually grasp it. So how is it that we can know. First we have to search out what we think is truth. Second we have to take that truth and live it to see if it produces true truth. If in the end we are healing yourself, healing your family, friends of whatever ailment you or they have. If you are living how Christ wants us to live. UNITED ORDER If the HG and Christ are truly in charge of your life. Not by word, but in deed. If you can prophecy and revelate and have all the gifts of the spirit. Then you can believe that you KNOW.

[Simon]

I think the BOM teaches us the way to come to a perfect knowledge. In a sortened version I would say it is this.

Hear the word
Ponder the word
Seek diligently in the light of Christ,
Listen carefully
Feel the swelling in your heart,
Act upon that swelling,
See the result of it
Testify about that experience


And this all do continually, with an eye single to the glory of God, with faith, hope and charity as best as you can

Truth will not merely lead to do good, it will lead to do good continually.. And that is a big difference. Satan may lead us to do good, but he will not lead us to do so continually.

[Simon]

Truly, how can I know truth? Christ has told us that their is only one way to truly know truth. He has said that it is by their fruits that ye shall know them. However even the term FRUITS has been changed, molded, to fit or mean something that was not the original meaning that Christ laid out for us to tell them by their fruits. One has to go back to the scriptures and search out Christs understanding of what the term fruits meant to him when he made that statement. To do that, one will have to rethink their whole spiritual experience. We have trusted man to guide our most important duty here in this life for so long that everything has been corrupted to the point that the scriptures and the preached Gospel are at odds with each other. But one will not believe this until they have taken time, "LOTS OF TIME" to search the scriptures thoroughly. Once you have a true understanding of the Gospel of Christ and what Christ was trying to teach you will see the contradiction. I could point out many scriptures and we could argue about what I have said but in the end it will still be your personal responsibility to research and learn the truth. If you have not taken that responsibility upon yourself, and have taken man for a guide, you would not believe anything I would say anyway, so what would be the point.
Christ taught in parables. Why did he teach in parables? Those to whom he taught had never heard the teachings he was teaching, yet he taught in parables. They did not have the opportunity to read the written word like us. No one had daily access to to the written word as we do. And they had to be very lucky to be one of the few to have the privilege to have listened to Christ preach. Yet he preached in parables.Then as well as now one had to, as well as has to search deep to understand Christ's Gospel. It was never, and will never be just laid out for you to just casually grasp it. So how is it that we can know. First we have to search out what we think is truth. Second we have to take that truth and live it to see if it produces true truth. If in the end we are healing yourself, healing your family, friends of whatever ailment you or they have. If you are living how Christ wants us to live. UNITED ORDER If the HG and Christ are truly in charge of your life. Not by word, but in deed. If you can prophecy and revelate and have all the gifts of the spirit. Then you can believe that you KNOW.

How true.. Even a good tasting fruit can be poisened.. A truely good fruit will only be that fruit that will lead to health, and that continually.

It is not quiet as simple as it sounds "to know them by their fruits".