Word of Wisdom question

[Valiance]

I've brought this up before in the past but never really got a true yes or no answer, so I thought I'd go for it again. I absolutely LOVE the aroma and flavor of coffee... my grandparents were not members of the church and so I was raised around the smell of it whenever we would see them or stay at their place. And growing up, my Mother used to give us Sanka and Postum all the time to drink as a hot beverage (they were/are members) since Sanka is only a coffee substitute (tastes like coffee but isn't) and Postum is a multi-grain hot drink that is good for you. Anyway, a few years ago, I noticed that Haagen Daaz and Ben & Jerry's had coffee flavors of ice cream (one is a straight coffee flavor and the other is coffee ice cream with heath bar chunks). If you read the ingredients, it does say 'coffee' on the label, but it's not a drink, it's not hot and coffee has actually been found to be quite healthy for you with over 150 antioxidants. So here is my dilemma... I am tempted to buy coffee flavored ice cream, but would that be breaking the word of wisdom? Any advice or input would be great. Thanks!

[Reggie]

I don't think the little bit of coffee you would get in a serving of ice cream would be against the word of wisdom; but, I would be worried about indulging what apparently is already a penchant for that thing that is against the word of wisdom. Coffee is a very addicting substance, not only for the caffeine that is in it but the taste, the smell, the socializing, etc. It may be the first step onto a slippery slope for you. I was raised in a home with coffee. For me I can take it or leave it. Doesn't really attract me. For you, it might be an issue. Good luck. Just listen carefully for the Spirit's guidance. I think this may be one of those things very individually driven. And from many of your posts I've read, I know you closely follow the Spirit.

[uglypitbull]

Dude, my grandma used to make a loaded fruitcake...and I mean loaded. You could eat a whole one and not catch a buzz. Vanilla has Vodka in it (as do all of those flavorings), you cook with it, you flavor things with it. I use cooking wine when I make certain meals. You aren't eating ice cream to calm your caffeine addiction....so if its flavor you're after, I don't see the big deal. My mom, on the other hand, wont eat chocolate (it has caffeine in it too)
Just remember, we die with our addictions.....LOL!

[jdawg1012]

A) Sanka is coffee (Not that I care if you drink it), it's just decaffeinated. Postum is not (coffee, or caffeinated for that matter).
B) The word of wisdom used to apparently mean anything hot, as I've seen statements from GA's about not letting our kids have hot soup, and an old book someone once lent me on the Word of Wisdom (I can't remember the title of it now), went in great deal about the dangers associated with hot drinks (like throat cancer). I guess like many other policies have changed, that one has too.
C) Caffeine is not addictive. It creates physical dependency with is very different. (Not to quibble).
D) I avoid all caffeine of any sort (if I can identify it), but I do eat chocolate from time to time, as it contains theobromide, but not caffeine. (Not to contradict an earlier post, sorry!)
E) I used to drink coffee and tea (before my conversion), and now do not. It's rare if I even have hot chocolate, but I prefer to not eat overly hot foods (and few dairy products). But I try not to use things that affect me greatly (or cause physical dependency), though I do have chocolate every now and again.
F) Regarding the Ice Cream, I specifically felt to not have the coffee flavored Ice Cream, so I personally abstain from eating anything with the flavor. (To answer your question at the end). Although I greatly enjoy the flavor of coffee, and coffee ice cream used to be my favorite, I felt that it wasn't right. Maybe it's so that I'm not tempted, but that's just me. I do, follow the Word of Wisdom pretty strictly though (the do's and the don'ts), and prefer to not get too far into "grey areas." (Points of contended doctrinal beliefs, like coffee ice cream, yerba mate, and beer, for example.)

But as far as I'm concerned, God gave us herbs to use. I believe that people can do so, hopefully with judgement and prudence. I don't condone the manner of some uses of some things, but I don't necessarily fight against them (marijuana, for example). They have a place, and God doesn't sanction our micromanaging of the lives of other. I'd say to pray about it, and do as prompted, because ultimately you answer to God and not us. I have felt not to use drink, partake, serve, etc., but I don't throw a hissy fit or lobby a congressman if someone else does. To each his/her own, is my take.

Take care.

[iamse7en]

Who knows if this is a true account, as it's third-hand and only one source, but...

At a reception McKay attended, the hostess served rum cake. ”All the guests hesitated, watching to see what McKay would do. He smacked his lips and began to eat.” When one guest expostulated, “‘But President McKay, don’t you know that is rum cake?’ McKay smiled and reminded the guest that the Word of Wisdom forbade drinking alcohol, not eating it.” [86] (source: Prince, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism; [86]: Leonard Arrington, Adventures of a Church Historian, 41-42; primary source is here)

[jdawg1012]

Who knows if this is a true account, as it's third-hand and only one source, but...

At a reception McKay attended, the hostess served rum cake. ”All the guests hesitated, watching to see what McKay would do. He smacked his lips and began to eat.” When one guest expostulated, “‘But President McKay, don’t you know that is rum cake?’ McKay smiled and reminded the guest that the Word of Wisdom forbade drinking alcohol, not eating it.” [86] (source: Prince, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism; [86]: Leonard Arrington, Adventures of a Church Historian, 41-42; primary source is here)

I've heard that story too (well, seen it written, though the accounts I've seen varied from that version). I don't know if it's true or false, but if it is true, there a common lie based upon two commonly held beliefs (both incorrect, I might add) that invariably follows in my experience.

Most people are quick to say that rum cake doesn't have rum in it after baking...

First, all alcohol is not baked out of food (some is, but it takes a LOT of cooking to cook alcohol out). In fact, it would have to be baked or simmered a couple of HOURS for it to lose even 90% (See the link below, excerpted):

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... ost-cases/
Alcohol Doesn’t Really “Cook Out” of Food in Most Cases

Today I found out alcohol does not “cook out” of food in most cases. The myth that alcohol does all cook out stems from the fact that alcohol has a much lower boiling point temperature (173° F / 78.5° C) than water (212° F / 100° C). Thus, if the temperature is above 78.5° C, then the alcohol should boil off, right?

A group of researchers in 1992 at the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the University of Idaho, and Washington State University decided to find out. In the end, what they discovered was that the “alcohol cooks out” assumption didn’t turn out to be correct for the vast majority of ways most people prepare food with alcohol.

Secondly, though a portion of the 1/2 cup+ of rum (I looked up a few recipes to see how much rum they called for) added to the cake batter would bake out, usually just as much rum is added to the cake after baking. Unlike a teaspoon of vanilla or other flavoring people think of in baking, a significant portion of rum is added to rum cake. That means that besides the substantial portion of that half cup of initial rum used in the batter, the additional glaze or sauce dumped on top, by itself, is still equivalent to 8 "small" shots, or nearly 6 "single" shots of rum. That's a pretty alcoholic cake.

In any event, I dunno if the account is true or not. I just wanted to head off the nigh-unto-inevitable "But the alcohol would have baked out, so he really didn't have any," ignorance that I've always seen accompany that story.

P.S. While it's theoretically possible that the cake contained no rum, it would be illogical to conclude that from the context. In theory you can make "Chocolate chip cookies" with carob (for example), but there's no reason to believe that what was consumed was anything other then the common "rum cake" made during that period, and given the related objection, it would seem that the cake was indeed alcoholic in nature.

[Simon]

Ever heard of the swearing apostel? He by the way also drank coffee .

Most important, I dont trink anyone can give you the answer, but as for me it seems like as if the reason we are not to drink coffee is because its unhealthy, so, if the smell is not, why not?

[ajax]

Here is what informs my view:

Matthew 15:11- "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

Also Joseph's intro to Sec 89 - "not by commandment or constraint" (v 2)

D&C 58:26 - "it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things the same is a slothful and not a wise servant."

Here is a brief history of the evolution of the WoW in the church-
http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... N03_80.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Too often, we (humans) want to force our interpretations of things onto others. Take for example John A Widsoe, who along with his wife had a very strict interpretation of the WoW. This from David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism:

[David O McKay] gently chided Apostle John A Widsoe, whose wife advocated such a rigid interpretation of the Word of Wisdom as to proscribe chocolate because of the stimulants it contained, saying, “John, do you want to take all the joy out of life?”

A little more from David O McKay for fun:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24452" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the end, everyone has the choice of how to live the WoW in their own lives. But I really don't think the angels in heaven are recording the exact amounts of coffee you intake from the ice cream you are eating.

[ajax]

Ever heard of the swearing apostel? He by the way also drank coffee .

J Golden Kimball (a Seventy, not Apostle). Here are a few circulating J Golden stories -

J. Golden Kimball and David O. McKay went to Cache Valley for a stake conference one cold winter day. Expecting poor road conditions, they left very early, but they did not encounter any delays. Since they had plenty of time, they decided to visit a local diner for some breakfast.

After seating them, the waitress asked the two General Authorities what they would like to eat. David O. ordered some ham and eggs. J. Golden requested the same.

“And some hot chocolate…”, David O. politely added.

Wanting something a bit stronger, J. Golden gulped and said he might as well have the same to drink. Then while David O. studied his notes J. Golden excused himself and slipped into the back of the kitchen. He found the waitress and quietly asked her to please slip a little coffee in his hot chocolate to help him get jump started on that cold morning. He then returned to the table.

The waitress soon came out with their breakfast. "Which one of you gentleman ordered the coffee in his hot chocolate?" she asked in a loud voice.

David O. looked up from his notes, completely surprised, and then began to turn red with embarrassment - or perhaps it was anger at J. Golden for his open disregard for the Word of Wisdom. (At that time Cache Valley was about 99% Mormon and everyone in the diner knew exactly who they were and what they were doing there.)

J. Golden then piped up, "Why don't you put a little in my cup too."

Another time, while in southern Utah to speak at a stake conference, he'd ditched his traveling companion and headed off to a local restaurant for lunch. He was eating - a cup of coffee at the ready - when his companion caught up with him.

Said his horrified and self-righteous companion: "Why Brother Kimball, I'd rather commit adultery than drink a cup of coffee."

To which, J. Golden replied: "Who the h*ll wouldn't."

When Heber J. Grant called for the Church to live the Word of Wisdom more faithfully, J. Golden's wife would no longer allow him to fix his coffee at home. J. Golden would sneak to downtown Salt Lake to a couple of different restaurants and have a cup of coffee. One time while he was sitting in a back booth near the restrooms, a lady spied him and confronted him saying, “Is that you Elder Kimball drinking coffee?” J. Golden replied, “Ma'am, you are the third person today who has mistaken me for that old s.o.b.!”

[ElectLady]

Maybe this is already on another post, but does anyone know why the WOW went from being good counsel to our most important commandment in the Church? I mean, sure, you love the Lord, and want to follow Him; but you can't be baptized, enter the temple, etc if you are not obeying the WOW. How did it become the most addressed commandment on the list? We are judged more on our obedience on this than our testimony or intention, and greatly ostracized if not obeying as others see/interpret it. Unless you avoid the unpopular things which most ignore (food in season, little if any meat, etc.) Anyway, I am always floored that this commandment comes up way more than the greatest commandments to love God and others. Ignore the naked and hungry, but by all means, don't have that ice tea.

[ajax]

Maybe this is already on another post, but does anyone know why the WOW went from being good counsel to our most important commandment in the Church?

The link I posted above sheds a little light.

[Jeremy]

If you read the ingredients, it does say 'coffee' on the label, but it's not a drink, it's not hot and coffee has actually been found to be quite healthy for you with over 150 antioxidants.

Read the ingredients in the Word of Wisdom. If I do a word search I cant find words like "coffee" or "tea" or "coke"...but I do find things like "not by commandment or constraint" and "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints" and "this should be wine" and "nevertheless they are to be used sparingly" and "for mild drinks" and "find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures"...

[Frederick]

Another time, while in southern Utah to speak at a stake conference, he'd ditched his traveling companion and headed off to a local restaurant for lunch. He was eating - a cup of coffee at the ready - when his companion caught up with him.

Said his horrified and self-righteous companion: "Why Brother Kimball, I'd rather commit adultery than drink a cup of coffee."

To which, J. Golden replied: "Who the h*ll wouldn't."

This quote had me laughing out loud. I'm not sure why, but it really gave me a laugh. Maybe it's just how I imagine the look of the self-righteous companion after J. Golden said that. Anyway, thanks for giving me a good laugh this morning.

[Valiance]

Those J. Golden stories were hilarious - they gave me a good laugh... thanks... I needed it. =)) :ymhug:

[durangout]

Yes, of course it is in violation of the WOW.

[uglypitbull]

Caffeine is naturally found in cocoa beans; not much though. Might want to read the ingredients on that next Snickers bar you eat. Hershey's Special Dark Chocolate has it too. Most candy bars have less than 10 milligrams though.

[iamse7en]

Maybe this is already on another post, but does anyone know why the WOW went from being good counsel to our most important commandment in the Church?.

This article from a 1981 Dialogue issue should walk you through the evolution. It was a combination of advice --> commandment and just stricter interpretation (read: change of definition) of what's strong and mild drink. Mostly the latter because strong drink was interpreted to mean hard liquors while wine and beer were mild drinks, fine in moderation. As they started changing, they allowed older folks to get recommends under the earlier interpretation and policy. Some thoughts from BY:

I met with the Twelve and High Priest Quorum. The word of wisdom was brought up. B. Young says shall I break the word of wisdom if I go home and drink a cup of tea? No wisdom is justified of her children; the subject was discussed in an interesting manner. All concluded that it was wisdom to deal with all such matters according to the wisdom which God gave, that a forced abstinence was not making us free but we should be under bondage with a yoke upon our necks. (WWJ, 11/7/1841)

Some of the brethren are very strenuous upon the “Word of Wisdom,” and would like to have me preach upon it, and urge it upon the brethren, and make it a test of fellowship. I do not think that I shall do so. I have never done so. We annually expend only $60,000 to break the “Word of Wisdom,” and we can save the money and still break it, if we will break it. Some would ask brother Brigham whether he keeps the “Word of Wisdom.” No: and I can say still further, as I told one of the teachers in Nauvoo, I come as near doing so as any man in this generation. It is not using tobacco that particularly breaks the “Word of Wisdom,” nor is that the only bad practice it corrects; but it is profitable in every path of life. If our young persons were manly enough to govern their appetites a little, they would not contract these bad habits; but they must have some weaknesses; they must not be perfect and exactly right in everything. It is a loathsome practice to use tobacco in any way. ... I will say that the most filthy way of using tobacco is to smoke it. What is the neat way? If you are going to direct any course for the people to use tobacco, let us know what it is. Cannot you who have used it for years point out a neat, modest, judicious way of using it? (BY, JD 9:35, 4/7/1861)

...the observance of the Word of Wisdom, or the interpretation of God's requirements on this subject, must be left, partially, with the people. We cannot make laws like the Medes and Persians. We cannot say you shall never drink a cup of tea, or you shall never taste of this, or you shall never taste of that; but we can say that Wisdom is justified of her children. (BY, JD 14:20, 5/6/1870)

And actions of Joseph:

Drank a glass of beer at Moessers. (Joseph’s History, June 1, 1844, Millennial Star, vol. 23, p. 720)

Called at the office and drank a glass of wine with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England, and reviewed a portion of the conference minutes. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v. 5, p. 380, Wednesday, May 3, 1843)

Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as also Brother Taylor and the doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out. (History of the Church, v. 6, p. 616, June 27, 1844)

[ElectLady]

Maybe this is already on another post, but does anyone know why the WOW went from being good counsel to our most important commandment in the Church?

The link I posted above sheds a little light.

This is both funny and infuriating. Well that explains that. Thankful I can think for myself and not be swept with the tide, I guess. It takes a lot of strength to realize that this is probably the way things are decided and the way we are led. I think we will be completely lost if left without the Holy Ghost; relying only on the customs and culture many confuse with pure revelation and doctrine and the Lord's will for us individually.

[BMC]

Pres. Grant, was a democrat running for public office in Utah and wanted Protestant support and they where prohibitionist and he too. This was all political and the designs of man and not God. I think it was around 1923 when it become by force to live or you could not enter the temple and it became part of the questions for worthiness for a temple recommend though the Lord clearly knowing this would happen, made several statements else where saying that anything more or less is not of Him on the subject of His commandments. WoW, says not by force, constraint, or commandment but by invitation, pretty clear what the Lord said here. No where is coffee or tea mentioned though it had been known and existed for many hundreds if not thousands of years by the names coffee and tea, but yet WoW says hot drinks. Also, drinks like beer where not forbidden and strong drinks where for washing and or sacrament use. The church owned its own Liquor store in which they sold, beer and liquor etc and held Stake events at. It was called, Saltair... they where however to make their own, because of the evil designs of man who sought to poison them. The liquor sales funded much of the church growth in late 1800's and early 1900's, saints where encouraged to patronage Saltair to keep it afloat and also bring money in to the church. I don't recall which secretary it was to the President I have his journal and all kinds of records and what not able alcohol sales etc... they where not ok with Saints drinking liquor but Danish beer was perfectly okay and other like beers, attending the temple drunk was not okay.

Anyways, if you feel its wrong go by that... if you feel inclined to the Lord was clear about his expectations on the WoW as an invitation and not a commandment or force, for our temporal salvation (doesn't say spiritual).

Just my 3 cents worth, its gone up because of inflation.

[jdawg1012]

Caffeine is naturally found in cocoa beans; not much though. Might want to read the ingredients on that next Snickers bar you eat. Hershey's Special Dark Chocolate has it too. Most candy bars have less than 10 milligrams though.

I (may) stand corrected. Apparently, according to some sources, dark chocolate has as much caffeine as a decaffeinated cup of coffee. When last I read on the subject, all sources said that cocoa contained theobromine (Sorry, interposed a "d" earlier), but not caffeine. Now I'm reading most of it's theobromine, with miniscule amounts of caffeine, with the darkest of chocolates containing the most, and decreasing the lighter chocolate gets (in it's final form). So, if those sources are correct (and include Hersey's own statements), it appears my previous statement was wrong. Thanks Pit!

[uglypitbull]

LOL...no worries. If snopes says there isnt caffeine in chocolate, you can rest assured that there is.

https://www.amanochocolate.com/articles ... olate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I've brought this up before in the past but never really got a true yes or no answer, so I thought I'd go for it again. I absolutely LOVE the aroma and flavor of coffee... my grandparents were not members of the church and so I was raised around the smell of it whenever we would see them or stay at their place. And growing up, my Mother used to give us Sanka and Postum all the time to drink as a hot beverage (they were/are members) since Sanka is only a coffee substitute (tastes like coffee but isn't) and Postum is a multi-grain hot drink that is good for you. Anyway, a few years ago, I noticed that Haagen Daaz and Ben & Jerry's had coffee flavors of ice cream (one is a straight coffee flavor and the other is coffee ice cream with heath bar chunks). If you read the ingredients, it does say 'coffee' on the label, but it's not a drink, it's not hot and coffee has actually been found to be quite healthy for you with over 150 antioxidants. So here is my dilemma... I am tempted to buy coffee flavored ice cream, but would that be breaking the word of wisdom? Any advice or input would be great. Thanks!

Go buy the ice cream and enjoy it. Then be received by the Savior. He does not care what kind of ice cream you eat. ;)

[ajax]

I've brought this up before in the past but never really got a true yes or no answer, so I thought I'd go for it again. I absolutely LOVE the aroma and flavor of coffee... my grandparents were not members of the church and so I was raised around the smell of it whenever we would see them or stay at their place. And growing up, my Mother used to give us Sanka and Postum all the time to drink as a hot beverage (they were/are members) since Sanka is only a coffee substitute (tastes like coffee but isn't) and Postum is a multi-grain hot drink that is good for you. Anyway, a few years ago, I noticed that Haagen Daaz and Ben & Jerry's had coffee flavors of ice cream (one is a straight coffee flavor and the other is coffee ice cream with heath bar chunks). If you read the ingredients, it does say 'coffee' on the label, but it's not a drink, it's not hot and coffee has actually been found to be quite healthy for you with over 150 antioxidants. So here is my dilemma... I am tempted to buy coffee flavored ice cream, but would that be breaking the word of wisdom? Any advice or input would be great. Thanks!

Go buy the ice cream and enjoy it. Then be received by the Savior. He does not care what kind of ice cream you eat. ;)

Well, that was easy.

[Jeremy]

And when your done and want to get that nasty coffee taste out of you mouth, you could go and drink a refreshing beverage, increasing your frequency (quickened) so that you are better prepared to meet Him. After all, He comes "quickly".

[passionflower]

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