Sustaining Church Leaders

[North_Star]

I think this has been reviewed a time or two:

What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self−security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.

JD 9:151, Brigham Young, January 12, 1862

[Epistemology]

What Frederick said. If it ain't in the Standard Works, it ain't worth looking at. Most, if not many members today probably aren't aware of it's existence. They might have heard of it coincidentally, but give it no further thought. We have been gradually weakened over the last 180+ years (whether or not purposefully) that we, by tradition, have been conditioned to "follow the prophet." Now I love Preident Monson. I sustain him as our prophet, seer, and revelator. But the fact of the matter remains that "following the prophet" in the context that the church in all it's correllated glory has handicapped us. Moses' intent was that the Israelites be brought to the veil to see God. So was Joseph Smith's. The whole point of our probation is to come to veil and be brought back into His presence. This is also what Nephi and Moroni taught. But it comes at great sacrifice, as it should be. Instead, we have become a church of laws and manuals. We have become like Pharisaical culture where the laws are the ends unto themselves rather than the means. Next time you go to the temple, pay attention to the very first sentence spoken in the temple regarding our status in God's kingdom.

If it is not in the Standard Works it's not worth looking at? Says who? Local leaders and their mistaken notions (which we individually are full of as well, leaders are not a special class or race of beings) do not constitute doctrine.

Are you saying that people only read the Standard Works and nothing else? Are we not counseled to seek learning out of the best books? Are we so weak in our discernment that we cannot use the Spirit to find truth for ourselves? We blame correlation, laws and manuals but you want laws and manuals to tell you what is and what is not scripture?

First off, I believe that the "test" Heber C. Kimball prophesied of is now upon us. (http://oneclimbs.com/2012/07/29/the-test-has-begun/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) The test's purpose is to cleanse the church in preparation for the next and perhaps final attempt to build a Zion.

Secondly, I believe that the nature of that test is no mystery (http://oneclimbs.com/2013/01/20/the-thr ... must-pass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). One of the aspects of that test will be not allowing false religious leaders to sway us from our goal. These false leaders may be ill-intentioned or well-intentioned, leading falsely because they do not know any better themselves.

This is where our sustaining comes into play. There are countless examples of the servants of the Lord seeking to serve and sustain really really bad guys. Think of Abinadi who was successful with persuading Alma, think of Ammon who went to work under a murderous scumbag, King Lamoni with the intent to serve him! Think of Joseph in Egypt serving the idolatrous pharaoh.

I propose that none of these men is as bad as an elders quorum president who is "new" or from a prominent family. How do you think the children of Israel felt when Moses, a new leader from a "prominent family" for crying out loud was called to lead them when he was a willing participant in their SLAVERY?!?! Yet the children of Israel, despite their failings were BETTER THAN US.

Laman and Lemuel, despite their failings and murmurings, honored and sustained their father and followed him on what seemed to be a suicidal mission. They stayed those eight years in the desert and endured a fearful epic journey across the ocean. Yes, even Laman and Lemuel are BETTER THAN US. See, we ourselves as members are so quick to judge and condemn, we don't even know what the word "sustain" means and this is just one of the reasons why there is no Zion. Stop blaming it on the leaders.

SUSTA'IN, verb transitive [Latin sustineo; sub and teneo, to hold under.]
1. To bear; to uphold; to support; as, a foundation sustains the superstructure; pillars sustain an edifice; a beast sustains a load.
2. To hold; to keep from falling; as, a rope sustains a weight.
3. To support; to keep from sinking in despondence. The hope of a better life sustains the afflicted amidst all their sorrows.
4. To maintain; to keep alive; to support; to subsist; as provisions to sustain a family or an army.
5. To support in any condition by aid; to assist or relieve.

This applies ESPECIALLY to the new, to the weak and to those that our help. If we fail to "sustain" or uphold, keep from sinking, support, assist, relieve, or bear up our leaders, we do so to our own demise.

We imperfect people, irrationally and impossibly demand PERFECT leaders. We have somehow found the truth through membership in God's Church only to turn and condemn the Church for not doing a better job. We are like sniveling, ungrateful children who want everything handed to them and are unwilling to humble themselves and sustain their leaders like Aaron and Hur did with Moses by holding up his arms so Israel could prevail.

Instead of looking for hanging arms to lift, we are window shopping for stones to throw.

great post my man... well said

[marc]

If it is not in the Standard Works it's not worth looking at? Says who? Local leaders and their mistaken notions (which we individually are full of as well, leaders are not a special class or race of beings) do not constitute doctrine.

This was me being cynical, for which I apologized. I have, however, asked family and friends whether they have heard of the LoF and completely read them. About half have and the other half have not. My own dear wife knows about them, but has never read them. My point is, if there are members who don't spend much time if any, reading, studying and pondering what we already have, for which we are under condemnation, then naturally, they won't spend much time reading what isn't in the standard works (anymore), but equally important.

Are you saying that people only read the Standard Works and nothing else? Are we not counseled to seek learning out of the best books? Are we so weak in our discernment that we cannot use the Spirit to find truth for ourselves? We blame correlation, laws and manuals but you want laws and manuals to tell you what is and what is not scripture?

No. Yes. No. No. The fact remains, however, that we are under condemnation as a church and we have been operating under this condemnation for 180 years.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

This condemnation has not been removed. And the scourge is coming. And it will begin upon the Lord's house. This is straight from the Lord's own mouth.

First off, I believe that the "test" Heber C. Kimball prophesied of is now upon us. (http://oneclimbs.com/2012/07/29/the-test-has-begun/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) The test's purpose is to cleanse the church in preparation for the next and perhaps final attempt to build a Zion.

Secondly, I believe that the nature of that test is no mystery (http://oneclimbs.com/2013/01/20/the-thr ... must-pass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). One of the aspects of that test will be not allowing false religious leaders to sway us from our goal. These false leaders may be ill-intentioned or well-intentioned, leading falsely because they do not know any better themselves.

Nice articles. I don't disagree with them. As a matter of fact, they serve to prove my point about the coming desolating scourge. Those who do not pass the test will not only fall away but be destroyed.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

What happened to the Israelites as Isaiah prophesied in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah concerning their desolation is also going to happen to us. We are repeating history. I don't know if the Israelite laity sustained their lawyers/leaders any more or less than we did. But the prophecies speak for themselves.

This is where our sustaining comes into play. There are countless examples of the servants of the Lord seeking to serve and sustain really really bad guys. Think of Abinadi who was successful with persuading Alma, think of Ammon who went to work under a murderous scumbag, King Lamoni with the intent to serve him! Think of Joseph in Egypt serving the idolatrous pharaoh.

Abinadi was not sent to serve King Noah, but to warn him. And Noah ordered the capture and execution of Alma, who had a change of heart and plead for Abinadi. Ammon, Aaron, Omner, Himni, Ammah and Muloki all served the wicked Lamanites, yes, although this is not what we are talking about. I was talking about sustaining our leaders, called by prophecy and the laying on of hands. Missionary service is different. As a result of their efforts, though, thousands were converted and Ammon became their high priest.

How do you think the children of Israel felt when Moses, a new leader from a "prominent family" for crying out loud was called to lead them when he was a willing participant in their SLAVERY?!?! Yet the children of Israel, despite their failings were BETTER THAN US.

At first they worshipped the Lord. In their humbled and destitute state, they were poor in heart as were the poor Zoramites.


Exodus 4:29 ¶And Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the children of Israel:

30 And Aaron spake all the words which the Lord had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.

31 And the people believed: and when they heard that the Lord had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.

But it didn't take long for them to become as idolatrous and rebellious as the Egyptians were. In Moses' absence (when he went to speak to the Lord), they build an idol to worship. Furthermore, they wanted more than freedom. They wanted freedom from worshipping God. As Nephi relates:

1 Nephi 17:41 And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.

42 And they did harden their hearts from time to time, and they did revile against Moses, and also against God; nevertheless, ye know that they were led forth by his matchless power into the land of promise.


They had become so wicked that the Lord considered destroying the Israelites in their exodus and starting over.

11 ¶And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

13 ¶And Moses said unto the Lord, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;)

14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

15 ¶Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,

16 Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.

17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,

18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word

But it was Moses' intercession that the Lord not destroy his people. But instead, the Lord had cursed them. In the forty years they wandered, He let a whole generation die before bringing the rising generation to the promised land. You see, they didn't want to be brought to the veil. They didn't want to converse with the Lord and be brought back into His presence as the people of the City of Enoch had. They wanted their worldly ways instead.

D&C 84:21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

What priesthood is this exactly that was taken out? It was the same priesthood that Enoch possessed and which his people did too. It was the ordinance to part a real veil and dwell with God and rest in this life.

D&C 76:52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God

The Lord's covenant people under Moses rejected it. They lost it. And so did the Lord's covenant Gentiles under Joseph Smith. There is a lot of history there as well, which I don't have time to go over at this point. But while we do have a portion of the Melchizedek priesthood, we don't have its fullness. Not like Enoch did. He and his people were the only society to truly repent. By the way, in Hebrew the word repent means return. The people of the city of Enoch truly did return to the Lord. Moses' people didn't. Neither did Joseph Smith's saints. And many paid a dear price along with many more faithful thereafter who became pioneers, destined to undergo their own exodus and try and start again just as the ancient Israelites did when they finally reached their promised land. But the prophecies are clear concerning us.

So if, as you say, the Israelites were better than us, then brother, we are in big, BIG trouble! Because the Isrealites were cursed and dispersed. They suffered atrocities at the hand of the Assyrians as isaiah prophecied would happen.

Laman and Lemuel, despite their failings and murmurings, honored and sustained their father and followed him on what seemed to be a suicidal mission. They stayed those eight years in the desert and endured a fearful epic journey across the ocean. Yes, even Laman and Lemuel are BETTER THAN US. See, we ourselves as members are so quick to judge and condemn, we don't even know what the word "sustain" means and this is just one of the reasons why there is no Zion. Stop blaming it on the leaders.

The Laman and Lemuel that I know of did not honor and sustain their father. They were reluctant every step of the way and ultimately plotted to kill Lehi. And Nephi.

44 Wherefore, the Lord commanded my father that he should depart into the wilderness; and the Jews also sought to take away his life; yea, and ye also have sought to take away his life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them.

45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.

46 And ye also know that by the power of his almighty word he can cause the earth that it shall pass away; yea, and ye know that by his word he can cause the rough places to be made smooth, and smooth places shall be broken up. O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts?

47 Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever. Behold, I am full of the Spirit of God, insomuch that my frame has no strength.

48 And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; and as they came forth to lay their hands upon me I spake unto them, saying: In the name of the Almighty God, I command you that ye touch me not, for I am filled with the power of God, even unto the consuming of my flesh; and whoso shall lay his hands upon me shall wither even as a dried reed; and he shall be as naught before the power of God, for God shall smite him.

Again, if Laman and Lemuel are better than us, then we are in big trouble.

SUSTA'IN, verb transitive [Latin sustineo; sub and teneo, to hold under.]
1. To bear; to uphold; to support; as, a foundation sustains the superstructure; pillars sustain an edifice; a beast sustains a load.
2. To hold; to keep from falling; as, a rope sustains a weight.
3. To support; to keep from sinking in despondence. The hope of a better life sustains the afflicted amidst all their sorrows.
4. To maintain; to keep alive; to support; to subsist; as provisions to sustain a family or an army.
5. To support in any condition by aid; to assist or relieve.

I really don't see the above definition applying to Laman and Lemuel or some of Ishmael's children.

This applies ESPECIALLY to the new, to the weak and to those that our help. If we fail to "sustain" or uphold, keep from sinking, support, assist, relieve, or bear up our leaders, we do so to our own demise.

We imperfect people, irrationally and impossibly demand PERFECT leaders. We have somehow found the truth through membership in God's Church only to turn and condemn the Church for not doing a better job. We are like sniveling, ungrateful children who want everything handed to them and are unwilling to humble themselves and sustain their leaders like Aaron and Hur did with Moses by holding up his arms so Israel could prevail.

Instead of looking for hanging arms to lift, we are window shopping for stones to throw.

I do admit that I came off as cynical and again, I apologize. We should sustain our leaders and receive them. But I only follow Jesus Christ. he is the keeper of the gate and the way. Not any man. Not President Monson. And I certainly don't expect to everything to be handed to me. I have undergone a lifelong struggle to prove the Lord as He has challenged in the scriptures that if I am obedient to His commandments as given to his servants, the prophets, that I will be brought back into His presence while in mortality.

Moroni 7:3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.

This is the principle message of the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith tried over and over again to teach us and why he included the Lectures on Faith in the Doctrine & Covenants, which were removed by a committee. This was my singular point in my interruption of this thread. It was not my intention to criticize and I apologize for not being more thoughtful in my post.

[Thomas]

We have quite a lot of evidence that the Jews, in the time of Jesus, sustained their leaders. The result was their destruction. Some few knew that the time to remove their sustaining hand had come.

[Epistemology]

I wonder how many members actually sustain the 15 right now?

Like a yay or nay vote.

[TZONE]

Great discussion here and insihgts. I will address to. I know 5stev said them but they are just being used as part of my own discussion.

Two comments.

who cares if it is bound together with other records or not

I hear this said a lot. I have heard my wife say it to me when i try to share spiritual matters with my own family, she is like who cares let them be.

Alma 5:26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

I care because i care for the salvation of my family. I care because the things taught in LOF are necceasry to know for "life unto salvation". I care because I love my family, friends, and all those who will never gain the faith or missed a chance for that faith because they were put off by "a demand for perfect leaders".

We imperfect people, irrationally and impossibly demand PERFECT leaders.

No. I do not demand anyone perfect. Except I do want Christ. What I don't want is this.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

What I don't want is another spiritual leader who is no different than those of another faith.

I want this,

Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this.
Joseph Fielding Smith (editor), Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 160

I don't care how good of a GA, Apostle, President, bishop, stake president, sunday school teacher...

Gods are Sons of God

I bel. in these Gods that God reveals as Gods---to be Sons of God & all can cry Abba Father--Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods even from bef. the foundatn. of the world & are all the only Gods I have a reverence for--http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/16Jun44.html

These are the ones I have reverence for.

[Epistemology]

TZONE

Do u think your family and your salvation is in jeopardy because the LOF are not in the D&C?

[gkearney]

In all sustaining you have three choices: yes, not or to simply abstain. If I am visiting a ward or stake of if the person is unknown to me I simply abstain.

[TZONE]

TZONE

Do u think your family and your salvation is in jeopardy because the LOF are not in the D&C?

Its just not about LOF. Its about teaching the Core of the gospel. joseph said,

“Oh! I beseech you to forward, go forward and make your calling and your election sure and if any man preach any other gospel with that which I have preached, he shall be cursed.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 366-367)

3 nephi 11:40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

The cursing comes upon all who will not teach the doctrine of Christ. anything MORE or LESS.

See mosaiah 12, the two wicked priests would not teach correctly the gospel. Even if they did teach the law of moses.

Its 100% evident that just not LOF are not taught or anything in them, also calling and election and receiving the Lord in the flesh as the second comforter are not taught in the church anymore. If it was, I wouldn't bring up to every single one of my family members about seeing Christ, and every single one gives an answer, don't even worry about it, you can see christ in the creation and the world around us. What does C&E mean? What does Second Comforter Mean? Its not something we should seek after!

While we are all dependent on our salvation, its the responsibility of the disciples of Jesus Christ to teach the doctrine of christ, no more no less. Else they cometh of evil. To give them every opportunity to accept or reject it.

Its the responsibility of diciples of Christ to teach CORRECT doctrine and nothing else.

[Epistemology]

TZONE

Do u think your family and your salvation is in jeopardy because the LOF are not in the D&C?

Its just not about LOF. Its about teaching the Core of the gospel. joseph said,

“Oh! I beseech you to forward, go forward and make your calling and your election sure and if any man preach any other gospel with that which I have preached, he shall be cursed.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 366-367)

3 nephi 11:40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

The cursing comes upon all who will not teach the doctrine of Christ. anything MORE or LESS.

See mosaiah 12, the two wicked priests would not teach correctly the gospel. Even if they did teach the law of moses.

Its 100% evident that just not LOF are not taught or anything in them, also calling and election and receiving the Lord in the flesh as the second comforter are not taught in the church anymore. If it was, I wouldn't bring up to every single one of my family members about seeing Christ, and every single one gives an answer, don't even worry about it, you can see christ in the creation and the world around us. What does C&E mean? What does Second Comforter Mean? Its not something we should seek after!

While we are all dependent on our salvation, its the responsibility of the disciples of Jesus Christ to teach the doctrine of christ, no more no less. Else they cometh of evil. To give them every opportunity to accept or reject it.

Its the responsibility of diciples of Christ to teach CORRECT doctrine and nothing else.

got it

[marc]

The LoF committee had a marvelous opportunity to build upon the LoF rather than delete it. Rather than pray for and receive further revelation concerning it for the membership, they voted to remove it because if it was too confusing for them, it would be too confusing for us, the laity. Can you imagine if Nephi had removed Isaiah from the brass plates for this reason? But rather than doing so, with the power from God, he expounded on Isaiah and taught his people plainly concerning Isaiah and their legacy and responsibility as covenant people. He took the time to copy, word for word, etching and engraving for countless hours, Isaiah's words for our benefit as well. I have spent the last twenty years reading the BoM many, many times and I have spent the last year studying Isaiah and will spend all of 2014 digging even deeper into Isaiah.

Thank you, Nephi, for not giving up on your people and for your patience and longsuffering and for teaching in plainness, as plain as word can be. Not only did Nephi expound on Isaiah, but so did Jacob, Abinadi and Jesus Christ did as well at Bountiful and even commanding them (and us) to study Isaiah for great are his words. I know a brother who was visited by an angel and taught from Isaiah. There is a pattern laid before us to come unto Christ--to meet Him face to face in this mortal life. We are told how in the BoM and in the D&C. But if we don't dig deep enough, we'll never find it. This is why LoF is so important.

My point in this post is that sustaining our prophets, seers and revelators means sustaining them in their calling to do so rather than "the church" set up committees for this and committees for that. Isaiah didn't need committees. Nephi didn't need committees. Joseph Smith didn't need committees either. Policies and procedures are for corporations, not for Zion. But then again, we aren't Zion yet.

[inquirringmind]

What is "LOF"?

[lemuel]

lectures on faith

[inquirringmind]

lectures on faith

I should have known that.

Thank you.

[natasha]

Why even have a vote. It actually meant something in Joseph's day.

It's not a "vote"....it's a sustaining. Read the information about sustaining.

[Jake]

Why even have a vote. It actually meant something in Joseph's day.

It's not a "vote"....it's a sustaining. Read the information about sustaining.

Sorry, but the scriptures disagree with you.

No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

It is a vote to sustain. We should pay close attention to the words used in the scriptures and not ascribe meanings to them that were not intended.

In Joseph's day, people were nominated for offices much the same way we nominate them in state caucus meetings. The nominations were then presented for a vote. Sometimes they were unanimous, sometimes not. People were not punished for disagreeing, but were allowed to vote their conscience.

The word sustain appeared once in the original D&C, in what is now section 123, and it talks about sustaining injuries, not upholding or agreeing to a decision. The current understanding of what it means to sustain has changed over time. The only canonized scripture I can find that uses the word sustain in the same way we use it today is in Official Declaration 2.

Our system of nomination and "sustaining" is much like the Communist system. I found the following description, which I think fits very nicely:

Communist elections

Q: Was the mayor elected or appointed?

Elections were organized regularly, but for all practical purposes, there were no elected offices under communism, including the members of parliament, only appointments by the Communist Party.

Candidates

The single list of candidates was drawn up by the Communist Party (CP) with only one candidate for each office, almost all CP members. The Communists also selected and nominated (effectively appointed) a minuscule number of non-CP members.

Voting rooms

The ballot box was placed at the center of the room in front of the 4-5 member committee who checked off people's names and gave each a ballot with preprinted names of the candidates, one name for each office. To adjust the ballots in private, the voter would have to remember to bring a pen or pencil and walk, observed by the committee, to the far corner of the room where the Communists placed a small screen with a table and a pen or pencil, sometimes broken according to informal internal instructions so that the voter would need to go back to the committee and ask for a new one. Before the election day, people were enjoined to "vote manifestly," that is to pick up the ballot from the committee, turn around, and drop it off in the ballot box right away.

Source: http://www.pitt.edu/~votruba/qsonhist/c ... vakia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind of sounds familiar, doesn't it?

My own humble opinion is that we have a duty to support all church office holders, regardless of whether we agree with them or not, regardless of whether we believe they should hold office or not. We should pray for them and heed the requirements they place upon us to the extent that the Spirit allows us to. However, when it comes time for a sustaining vote (like General Conference or other conferences), we should feel like we can vote our conscience and oppose someone's placement in office. There is no scriptural prohibition against opposing, but like everything else, it ought to be done in accordance with the will of the Holy Spirit, with meekness and love unfeigned. And if someone is given a church office in spite of our opposition, we still should pray for that person as much as we can. (D&C 121:41)

[Simon]

Could "to sustain" not also mean to "help them stay on the right path"?

In the scriptures it also states that God sustaines his servats, this does not mean he is doing what we want, but he is doing what is right. He supports us by truth.

Wouldnt our duty be the same with the bretheren?

[ajax]

The word sustain is only used once in the D&C, Sec 134, in relation to the government.

The pontifications of "binding", "full loyalty and and support, without equivocation or reservation", "have no right" are nothing but that, pontifications.

[Simon]

The word sustain is only used once in the D&C, Sec 134, in relation to the government.

The pontifications of "binding", "full loyalty and and support, without equivocation or reservation", "have no right" are nothing but that, pontifications.

I laid me down and slept; I awakened; for the Lord sustained me

psalms 3:5

Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee

psalms 55:23

[ajax]

The word sustain is only used once in the D&C...

;)

[Simon]

The word sustain is only used once in the D&C...

;)

True

[Lilli]

Could "to sustain" not also mean to "help them stay on the right path"?

In the scriptures it also states that God sustaines his servats, this does not mean he is doing what we want, but he is doing what is right. He supports us by truth.

Wouldnt our duty be the same with the bretheren?

Definitely. I don't think we are truly sustaining anyone by following them in doing wrong.

[natasha]

Why even have a vote. It actually meant something in Joseph's day.

It's not a "vote"....it's a sustaining. Read the information about sustaining.

Sorry, but the scriptures disagree with you.

No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

It is a vote to sustain. We should pay close attention to the words used in the scriptures and not ascribe meanings to them that were not intended.

In Joseph's day, people were nominated for offices much the same way we nominate them in state caucus meetings. The nominations were then presented for a vote. Sometimes they were unanimous, sometimes not. People were not punished for disagreeing, but were allowed to vote their conscience.

The word sustain appeared once in the original D&C, in what is now section 123, and it talks about sustaining injuries, not upholding or agreeing to a decision. The current understanding of what it means to sustain has changed over time. The only canonized scripture I can find that uses the word sustain in the same way we use it today is in Official Declaration 2.

Our system of nomination and "sustaining" is much like the Communist system. I found the following description, which I think fits very nicely:

Communist elections

Q: Was the mayor elected or appointed?

Elections were organized regularly, but for all practical purposes, there were no elected offices under communism, including the members of parliament, only appointments by the Communist Party.

Candidates

The single list of candidates was drawn up by the Communist Party (CP) with only one candidate for each office, almost all CP members. The Communists also selected and nominated (effectively appointed) a minuscule number of non-CP members.

Voting rooms

The ballot box was placed at the center of the room in front of the 4-5 member committee who checked off people's names and gave each a ballot with preprinted names of the candidates, one name for each office. To adjust the ballots in private, the voter would have to remember to bring a pen or pencil and walk, observed by the committee, to the far corner of the room where the Communists placed a small screen with a table and a pen or pencil, sometimes broken according to informal internal instructions so that the voter would need to go back to the committee and ask for a new one. Before the election day, people were enjoined to "vote manifestly," that is to pick up the ballot from the committee, turn around, and drop it off in the ballot box right away.

Source: http://www.pitt.edu/~votruba/qsonhist/c ... vakia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind of sounds familiar, doesn't it?

My own humble opinion is that we have a duty to support all church office holders, regardless of whether we agree with them or not, regardless of whether we believe they should hold office or not. We should pray for them and heed the requirements they place upon us to the extent that the Spirit allows us to. However, when it comes time for a sustaining vote (like General Conference or other conferences), we should feel like we can vote our conscience and oppose someone's placement in office. There is no scriptural prohibition against opposing, but like everything else, it ought to be done in accordance with the will of the Holy Spirit, with meekness and love unfeigned. And if someone is given a church office in spite of our opposition, we still should pray for that person as much as we can. (D&C 121:41)

I agree with you....it's a "vote to sustain" as you put it. Voting in opposition will get a person the opportunity to express in private their objection and the decision is made by the presiding priesthood who's stewardship it is. In our local wards and branches...it we have a "beef" to pick with someone...we should do it in private...the Lord's house is a house of order.

[Lilli]

My own humble opinion is that we have a duty to support all church office holders, regardless of whether we agree with them or not, regardless of whether we believe they should hold office or not. We should pray for them and heed the requirements they place upon us to the extent that the Spirit allows us to. However, when it comes time for a sustaining vote (like General Conference or other conferences), we should feel like we can vote our conscience and oppose someone's placement in office. There is no scriptural prohibition against opposing, but like everything else, it ought to be done in accordance with the will of the Holy Spirit, with meekness and love unfeigned. And if someone is given a church office in spite of our opposition, we still should pray for that person as much as we can. (D&C 121:41)

'We' are the one's who have to discern and decide if leaders are really 'called by God' or not. for no one is infallible. Thus we are only obligated to follow those we know God has really called, (not who men may call or vote for) and only even obligated to follow God's true servants when they are righteous themselves and teaching the truth, for even leaders truly 'called of God' can fall or often be wrong.

Like when Joseph was deceived to call the wicked 'John Bennett' (having abandoned his wife and children in the east, etc.) into one of the highest callings in the Church. Those women he seduced in Nauvoo were not obligated to support or follow him, nor was anyone, especially if they could discern who he really was. Even Joseph refused to support him or keep him in office once he found out what he was really all about.