Really that manner of man ?

[Simon]

A priest and a busdriver die, and enter heaven. The priest went to the lowest of all heavens, and the busdriver to the highest. So, the priest called on God and asked him how in all the world could that possibly be possible. "I preached my enire life to bring people unto thee, and what did he do? Just driving the bus? Is that really the manner of man you want?

God, in all his love and mercy replied. "Well my son, whilst thou hast preached in church, all fell aslweep, but when he drove the bus, all were praying

Lately there have been so many discussions about "who is perfect".. and we always try to answer all these question by our logic, or with our worldy view of things. But fact is, the Lord sees differently thnt we do, he calls things "good" that we may not call "good" at frist. I bet that one day, when we come to heaven, we might get surprised whom the Lord will call his, and whom not.

I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor & dividing his substance, than the long smoothed faced hypocrites

God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.

Joseph Smith

What if God also preferes that man who swears, but whose heart is set right before him. What if he will reject those that appear to be good, but lack to act according to the Spirit of the Lord. What if he calls them free of sin, and the others he will reject?

Is it really that manner of man the Lord wants that we think he wants?



-

[log]

You never do know who is doing as they have been asked of the Lord.

I mean, someone on the outside seeing Nephi kill Laban would surely have found fault - and they'd have been wrong, wouldn't they?

I guess that may be why the Lord set it as a commandment.

3 Nephi 14
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[Simon]

What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Acts 10:15

[inquirringmind]

You never do know who is doing as they have been asked of the Lord.

I understand it may sometimes be more complicated than it appears, but surely neither of you are saying that personal revelation is always required before you can say that what you see someone else doing or teaching is wrong?

Would either of you need personal revelation to know that Nate Turner wasn't doing what God told him to?

Turner had "natural intelligence and quickness of apprehension, surpassed by few."[7] He learned to read and write at a young age. Deeply religious, Nat was often seen fasting, praying, or immersed in reading the stories of the Bible.[8] He frequently experienced visions which he interpreted as messages from God. These visions greatly influenced his life; for instance, when Turner was 22 years old, he ran away from his owner, but returned a month later after having such a vision. Turner often conducted Baptist services, preaching the Bible to his fellow slaves, who dubbed him "The Prophet". Turner also had influence over white people, and in the case of Ethelred T. Brantley, Turner said that he was able to convince Brantley to "cease from his wickedness".[9]

By early 1828, Turner was convinced that he "was ordained for some great purpose in the hands of the Almighty."[10][11] While working in his owner's fields on May 12, Turner "heard a loud noise in the heavens, and the Spirit instantly appeared to me and said the Serpent was loosened, and Christ had laid down the yoke he had borne for the sins of men, and that I should take it on and fight against the Serpent, for the time was fast approaching when the first should be last and the last should be first."[12] Turner was convinced that God had given him the task of "slay[ing] my enemies with their own weapons."[12] Turner said, "I communicated the great work laid out for me to do, to four in whom I had the greatest confidence" – his fellow slaves Henry, Hark, Nelson, and Sam.[12]

Beginning in February 1831, Turner came to believe that certain atmospheric conditions were to be interpreted as a sign that he should begin preparing for a rebellion against the slave owners.

On February 11, 1831, an annular solar eclipse was seen in Virginia. Turner saw this as a black man's hand reaching over the sun, and he took this vision as his sign. The rebellion was initially planned for July 4, Independence Day, but was postponed for more deliberation between him and his followers, and due to illness. On August 13, there was another solar eclipse, in which the sun appeared bluish-green (possibly from debris deposited in the atmosphere by an eruption of Mount Saint Helens). Turner took this occasion as the final signal, and about a week later, on August 21, he began the rebellion.

Turner started with a few trusted fellow slaves. “All his initial recruits were other slaves from his neighborhood”. [13] The neighborhood had to find ways to communicate their intentions without giving up their plot. Songs may have tipped the neighborhood members on movements. “It is believed that one of the ways Turner summoned fellow conspirators to the woods was through the use of particular songs.” [14] The rebels traveled from house to house, freeing slaves and killing the white people they found. The rebels ultimately included more than 70 enslaved and free blacks.[15]

Because the rebels did not want to alert anyone to their presence as they carried out their attacks, they initially used knives, hatchets, axes, and blunt instruments instead of firearms.[16] The rebellion did not discriminate by age or sex, until it was determined that the rebellion had achieved sufficient numbers. Nat Turner only confessed to killing one of the rebellion's victims, Margret Whitehead, whom he killed with a blow from a fence post.[16]

Before a white militia was able to respond, the rebels killed 60 men, women, and children.[17] They spared a few homes "because Turner believed the poor white inhabitants 'thought no better of themselves than they did of negros.'"[18][19] Turner also thought that revolutionary violence would serve to awaken the attitudes of whites to the reality of the inherent brutality in slave-holding, a concept similar to 20th century philosopher Franz Fanon's idea of "violence as purgatory".[20] Turner later said that he wanted to spread "terror and alarm" among whites.[21]

The rebellion was suppressed within two days, but Turner eluded capture until October 30, when he was discovered hiding in a hole covered with fence rails. On November 5, 1831, he was tried for "conspiring to rebel and making insurrection", convicted and sentenced to death.[22] Turner was hanged on November 11 in Jerusalem, Virginia. His body was flayed, beheaded and quartered.[23] In the aftermath of the insurrection there were 45 slaves, including Turner, and 5 free blacks tried for insurrection and related crimes in Southampton. Of the 45 slaves tried, 15 were acquitted. Of the 30 convicted, 18 were hanged, while 12 were sold out of state. Of the 5 free blacks tried for participation in the insurrection, one was hanged, while the others were acquitted.[24]

Soon after Turner's execution, a local lawyer, Thomas Ruffin Gray, took it upon himself to publish "The Confessions of Nat Turner", derived partly from research done while Turner was in hiding and partly from jailhouse conversations with Turner before trial. This work is the primary historical document regarding Nat Turner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner

[log]

Would either of you need personal revelation to know that Nate Turner wasn't doing what God told him to?

Why not? I can doubt or believe stuff, but knowledge comes by experience and in no other way.

Judge not, says the Lord.

[inquirringmind]

Would either of you need personal revelation to know that Nate Turner wasn't doing what God told him to?

Why not? I can doubt or believe stuff, but knowledge comes by experience and in no other way.

Judge not, says the Lord.

He also said:

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt. 7:16-20.)

And:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matt. 22:37.)

And (in Paul) He said:

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (1 Cor. 6:1-5.)

[log]

Yeah... but.

Numbers 31
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

I'm sure examples can be multiplied.

I kind of like the whole bit of that section of Corinthians.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

So, if a man is commanded to judge, hey, he gets to judge (a bishop, after all, is a common judge in Israel). Otherwise, we judge not.

[log]

Just like with polygamy - when we're commanded, that's what we do; otherwise, we stay monogamous.

Jacob 2:30
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

[Simon]

[Simon]

I love you guys

[Lilli]

Just like with polygamy - when we're commanded, that's what we do; otherwise, we stay monogamous.

Jacob 2:30
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

People keep using this scripture, I don't think it means what you think it means. There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

[Simon]

Just like with polygamy - when we're commanded, that's what we do; otherwise, we stay monogamous.

Jacob 2:30
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

People keep using this scripture, I don't think it means what you think it means. There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

Do you believe that polygamy was never, at all commandet by the Lord

[inquirringmind]

Yeah... but.

Numbers 31
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

I'm sure examples can be multiplied.

I kind of like the whole bit of that section of Corinthians.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

So, if a man is commanded to judge, hey, he gets to judge (a bishop, after all, is a common judge in Israel). Otherwise, we judge not.

Commentary on Numbers 31.

Ver. 17. Of children. Women and children, ordinarily speaking, were not to be killed in war, Deuteronomy xx. 14. But the great lord of life and death was pleased to order it otherwise in the present case, in detestation of the wickedness of this people, who by the counsel of Balaam, had sent their women amongst the Israelites on purpose to draw them from God. (Challoner) --- Only those who were under twelve would be thus reserved; and as their tender minds might yet receive the impressions of virtue, by a proper education, they might, one day, be married by some of the Hebrews. The boys were all slain, either because they might be inclined to resent the injury done to their relations, or because they were all consecrated to Beelphegor; the first-born to be his priests, the rest to be victims, if necessary, to avert any evil. For "the heathens in cold blood," says Paine, "offered their children in sacrifice to Baalpeor." It was on this account, that the killing of all the first-born in Egypt, was felt so terribly, as the people could not lawfully approach their gods. (Forbes) --- Moses did not reserve the girls for the purpose of debauchery, as Paine ignorantly pretends; for that was contrary to his own laws, nor did he wantonly kill the innocent, which he also strictly forbade, and which he would have been still more afraid to do, if he had been an impostor. But he preserved the lives of those girls who might be presumed innocent, and who might live to do good, while he took the revenge of the Lord (ver. 3,) upon the rest. (Haydock)

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id478.html

Did 19th century Americans offer their children in human sacrifice to pagan gods (as the Madianites did)?

Would any children spared by Nate Turner's followers have had their throats cut by their own parents (or their priests) if they had been left alive?

Are you saying you would have been unable to see that what Nate Turner and his followers did in 19th century Virginia was wrong without a personal revelation from God?

I don't believe there's any proof that Brigham Young knew and approved of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but I get the feeling you would say that if he had, he might have just been doing what God told him to do?

Am I right?

If you had been on the scene, in the militia, and given the orders that John D. Lee and others were given, would you have known what to do without waiting for personal revelation?

[Lilli]

People keep using this scripture, I don't think it means what you think it means. There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

Do you believe that polygamy was never, at all commandet by the Lord

Nope, never. I believe in Christ's and Joseph Smith's and the Book of Mormon Prophets teachings against polygamy, which I use to judge everyone else's opinions and teachings by. I believe God and his laws are the same for everyone, yesterday, today and forever.

[inquirringmind]

There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

I'm interested in that.

Could you explain?

(And are you a Missouri Mormon?)

[Lilli]

There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

I'm interested in that.

Could you explain?

(And are you a Missouri Mormon?)

I believe Jacob is saying, that unless God commands his people (to keep the commandments) they will hearken unto things like polygamy, as they always have done throughout history.

I don't believe it even makes sense to read it the other way, for I believe that righteous monogamy is the fastest and best way to raise a strong righteous happy posterity. Happy mothers who are loved and respected by faithful husbands raise the most righteous children.

No, I am not a Missouri Mormon. I believe in Christ's teachings 1st and foremost, and in Joseph Smith's teachings and in the Book of Mormon and D&C that teach in harmony with Christ's teachings.

[inquirringmind]

There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

I'm interested in that.

Could you explain?

(And are you a Missouri Mormon?)

I believe Jacob is saying, that unless God commands his people (to keep the commandments) they will hearken unto things like polygamy, as they always have done throughout history.

I don't believe it even makes sense to read it the other way, for I believe that righteous monogamy is the fastest and best way to raise a strong righteous happy posterity. Happy mothers who are loved and respected by faithful husbands raise the most righteous children.

No, I am not a Missouri Mormon. I believe in Christ's teachings 1st and foremost, and in Joseph Smith's teachings and in the Book of Mormon and D&C that teach in harmony with Christ's teachings.

Thank you.

[Simon]

People keep using this scripture, I don't think it means what you think it means. There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

Do you believe that polygamy was never, at all commandet by the Lord

Nope, never. I believe in Christ's and Joseph Smith's and the Book of Mormon Prophets teachings against polygamy, which I use to judge everyone else's opinions and teachings by. I believe God and his laws are the same for everyone, yesterday, today and forever.

I never liked that particular doctrine, so I wished you were right,. So, you believe Joseph never had more than one wife?

[Lilli]

Nope, never. I believe in Christ's and Joseph Smith's and the Book of Mormon Prophets teachings against polygamy, which I use to judge everyone else's opinions and teachings by. I believe God and his laws are the same for everyone, yesterday, today and forever.

I never liked that particular doctrine, so I wished you were right,. So, you believe Joseph never had more than one wife?

No, I don't believe Joseph had any other wives then Emma. I have studied Joseph's proven and published words, teachings, testimony and the scriptures he gave while he was alive and could speak for himself and I am convinced that he did not lie his whole life as many say he did.

[Simon]

I know that. Brigham got much wrong about it, but I must have a deeper look into that.

[freedomforall]

People keep using this scripture, I don't think it means what you think it means. There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

Do you believe that polygamy was never, at all commandet by the Lord

Nope, never. I believe in Christ's and Joseph Smith's and the Book of Mormon Prophets teachings against polygamy, which I use to judge everyone else's opinions and teachings by. I believe God and his laws are the same for everyone, yesterday, today and forever.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up (a) seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. This verse states that unless God commands to live in polygamy, the Saints are to live monogamously.

Here is the cross reference. God is speaking of virgins being given to men for the purpose of raising up seed. And that in doing so, it is a part of the law of the Priesthood. Stands to reason that virgins include females under 18. Nevertheless, these verses say what they say whether we agree or not. It also says that if any of these virgins don't minister unto her husband they become a transgressor of God's law.
(a) D&C 132:63 (61–66)
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

[freedomforall]

Brigham Young learned about plural marriage in Nauvoo from Joseph Smith, and there is no reason to question his own report that he reacted negatively. Greeley asked him, "Is the system of your Church [plurality of wives] acceptable to the majority of its women?" and Brigham Young answered, "They could not be more averse to it than I was when it was first revealed to us as the Divine will. I think they generally accept it, as I do, as the will of God" (Greeley1859)
See: http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... N03_59.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the Prophet’s plural wives, having lived three years in his home, reflected late in her life, “I have known of his outgoings, and his incomings, his sorrows and joys, his troubles and afflictions in public and in private. He was one of the noblest of men and those who knew him best, loved him most.”
See: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/09/josep ... 13_000_012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See this and judge for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jo ... %27s_wives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[log]

Just like with polygamy - when we're commanded, that's what we do; otherwise, we stay monogamous.

Jacob 2:30
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

People keep using this scripture, I don't think it means what you think it means. There are 2 ways to interpret this verse, one for polygamy, one against it.

There are usually multiple ways to interpret everything. In context however, it seems perfectly straightforward that monogamy is the norm, unless specifically commanded by God.

Jacob 2
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

The second "reading" is not one that arises from the text, being contrary to it, but is forced upon it by prior commitments which include a rejection of the possibility of divinely commanded or sanctioned polygamy. Such a position likely rejects the provenance of D&C 132, despite the fact that we have a firsthand witness who shows it came from Joseph.

[July 12, 1843] This A.M. I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives & concubines. After it was wrote Press. Joseph and Hyrum presented it and read it to E[mma]. who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious. J[oseph]. told me to Deed all the unencumbered lots to E. & the children. He appears much troubled about E.

[July 13, 1843] This A.M. J. sent for me. & when I arrived he called me up into his private room with E. and there stated an agreement they had mutually entered into. they both stated their feelings on many subjects & wept considerable. O may the Lord soften her heart that she may be willing to keep and abide by his Holy Law.

The source is The Nauvoo Diaries of William Clayton, 1842-1846, Abridged. Salt Lake City: Privately Published, 2010, p. 22, as cited in PTHG, p. 156-7.

Of course, others recorded the Prophet's direct teachings on plural marriage, like Heber C. Kimball's account of the Prophet commanding him to give his wife, Vilate, to him, and John Taylor's similar experience.

One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.
Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199

[log]

Are you saying you would have been unable to see that what Nate Turner and his followers did in 19th century Virginia was wrong without a personal revelation from God?

You used the word know originally. I said "I can doubt or believe stuff, but knowledge comes by experience and in no other way." So, to me, you're changing the subject away from knowing for no stated reason.

I don't believe there's any proof that Brigham Young knew and approved of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but I get the feeling you would say that if he had, he might have just been doing what God told him to do?

If he had, he may have been. Without knowing, however, all I could do is opine one way or t'other.

If you had been on the scene, in the militia, and given the orders that John D. Lee and others were given, would you have known what to do without waiting for personal revelation?

Me, myself, and I? I would take no such action by the commandment of men save the Lord witnesses of it.

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

[Hyrcanus]

There are a plethora of accounts from a whole range of people confirming that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Contemporary, first hand autographs. Both believers, apostates, several of his plural wives, a couple of the husbands of his plural wives. It sounds like your mind is made up, but if you're open, I'd be happy to pass along a list of quotes and sources you read and see if you come to a similar conclusion.