Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?

[Bgood]

:ymparty:

[davedan]

I look at it this way:

Satan wanted to take Heavenly Father's place. He thought his plan (of Social Darwinism) was better than God's plan (Agency). The LDS concept of diefication doesn't take Heavenly Father's place but is God's own plan who will always remain our Heavenly Father: a God of gods, Lord of lords, King of kings, the Most High God and the Most High Priest.

The idea of LDS diefication has more to do with becoming and participating with God in the work of heavenly parenting of spirits. We know in the pre-existence we received our "first lessons". Who taught those "first lessons". If God were to assign people to teach and prepare spirits for a mortal experience, who would he assign to teach and prepare His children?


Obviously, someone who had already experienced mortality would be assigned to teach and prepare. Can you imagine someone not very honorable or valiant teaching. "Don't follow my example, I could never figure out that body, that body was driving me most of the time".

What lessons do we need to learn here to be able to teach "mortality prep" in the next life?
1. love God (telestial)
2. control/master the body (terrestrial)
3. submit to God's priesthood authority (celestial)

If there is a veil over your memory, what kind of preparation and "first lessons" would be taught. Most likely, we planned many of the strengths, weaknesses, gifts, talents, and some circumstances of our lives before coming to Earth.

[log]

Sigh.

For me, it's simple.

92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;

93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

Yes, we believe we can become Gods. No wordsmithing or dissimulation.

The difficulty is not in this belief, but rather in the false doctrine held by many in "orthodox" Christianity that God is the ground of all being - from that philosophical assumption (which Mormonism doesn't share) our doctrine appears self-contradictory.

[Lilli]

I look at it this way:

Satan wanted to take Heavenly Father's place. He thought his plan was better than God's plan. The LDS concept of diefication doesn't take Heavenly Father's place but is God's own plan who will always remain our Heavenly Father: a God of gods, Lord of lords, King of kings, the Most High God and the Most High Priest.

The idea of LDS diefication has more to do with becoming and participating with God in the work of heavenly parenting of spirits. We know in the pre-existence we received our "first lessons". Who taught those "first lessons". If God were to assign people to teach and prepare spirits for a mortal experience, who would he assign to teach and prepare His children?


Obviously, someone who had already experienced mortality would be assigned to teach and prepare. Can you imagine someone not very honorable or valiant teaching. "Don't follow my example, I could never figure out that body, that body was driving me most of the time".

What lessons do we need to learn here to be able to teach "mortality prep" in the next life?
1. love God (telestial)
2. control/master the body (terrestrial)
3. submit to God's priesthood authority (celestial)

If there is a veil over your memory, what kind of preparation and "first lessons" would be taught. Most likely, we planned many of the strengths, weaknesses, gifts, talents, and some circumstances of our lives before coming to Earth.

I like what you are saying here, the only thing I would change is #3. Submit to and live the teachings of Christ. (Celestial) For he is infallible.

[davedan]

I like what you are saying here, the only thing I would change is #3. Submit to and live the teachings of Christ. (Celestial) For he is infallible

Sounds like some may not have learned this lesson yet. God commanded us to be one and be united. We cannot do this unless we learn to submit to His priesthood authority (even as fallible as our leaders can be).

The reason we must also, learn to rely on the Holy Ghost and take the Holy Ghost as our guide is because the Brethren will not command in all things. We must be agents and anxiously engaged.

[Lilli]

I like what you are saying here, the only thing I would change is #3. Submit to and live the teachings of Christ. (Celestial) For he is infallible

Sounds like some may not have learned this lesson yet. God commanded us to be one and be united. We cannot do this unless we learn to submit to His priesthood authority (even as fallible as our leaders can be).

The reason we must also, learn to rely on the Holy Ghost and take the Holy Ghost as our guide is because the Brethren will not command in all things. We must be agents and anxiously engaged.

I'm sorry, but I believe differently. Christ and the prophets say to only follow Christ and those who teach his exact doctrines. Unfortunately leaders don't always teach Christ's exact doctrines. Thus, I believe Christ and the Holy Spirit are the highest authority we should submit to and follow. I have had 'priesthood authority' ask or teach me to do many things that were wrong and totally against Christ, but I followed Christ and the Spirit instead and I'm so glad I did. For I would have been held accountable and would have had to suffer for doing wrong even if asked to do so by a church leader. God does not expect or even want us to have 'blind or unquestioning obedience' to leaders. He commands us to 'prove all things 1st' and only hold fast to and follow that which is good and true and right.

[davedan]

God does not expect or even want us to have 'blind or unquestioning obedience' to leaders. He commands us to 'prove all things 1st' and only hold fast to and follow that which is good and true and right.

Yes, we prove all things by first obeying. You can't know if it is true if you don't first try it, and live it.

[log]

God commanded us to be one and be united. We cannot do this unless we learn to submit to His priesthood authority (even as fallible as our leaders can be).

Brother, you err in this.

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:57
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

[TZONE]

Abraham 4:

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

....

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

How did one become a God before this earth was? How did they help form the world?

though I expect, if I am faithful, I shall be as great as they are now, and so can every other faithful man. But am I now to be compared with these exalted characters? Not at all—not even with Joseph; and he is at present inferior to others brother Phelps has named. But I expect, if I am faithful with yourselves, that I shall see the time with yourselves that we shall know how to prepare to organize an
NECESSITY, ETC.

275
earth like this—know how to people that earth, how to redeem it, how to sanctify it, and how to glorify it, with those who live upon it who hearken to our counsels.
The Father and the Son have attained to this point already; I am on the way, and so are you, and every faithful servant of God.

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[Lilli]

God does not expect or even want us to have 'blind or unquestioning obedience' to leaders. He commands us to 'prove all things 1st' and only hold fast to and follow that which is good and true and right.

Yes, we prove all things by first obeying. You can't know if it is true if you don't first try it, and live it.

I'm sorry to be so contrary, but Joseph Smith taught that we 'prove all things and persons' by 1st 'comparing' what someone says or does to what Christ and the scriptures say. He taught that if anyone, even prophets, preaches or practices differently or contrary to the scriptures, then we will know it or they are false and we should not follow them.

I also disagree that we have to try something before we know it's wrong. I can watch or read what others do and see what happens and learn from their sad experience and more importantly I can trust Christ and follow what he taught. I don't have to try alcohol or adultery to know that it's not a good idea. The Spirit can also teach us all things that we should do, so we don't have to learn the hard way.

[log]

God does not expect or even want us to have 'blind or unquestioning obedience' to leaders. He commands us to 'prove all things 1st' and only hold fast to and follow that which is good and true and right.

Yes, we prove all things by first obeying. You can't know if it is true if you don't first try it, and live it.

I'm sorry to be so contrary, but Joseph Smith taught that we 'prove all things and persons' by 1st 'comparing' what someone says to what Christ and the scriptures say. He taught that if anyone, even prophets, preaches differently or contrary to the scriptures, then we will know it's false and we should not follow them.

I also disagree that we have to try something before we know it's wrong. I can watch or read what others do and see what happens and learn from their sad experience and more importantly I can trust Christ and follow what he taught. I don't have to try alcohol or adultery do know that it's not a good idea. The Spirit can also teach us all things that we should do, so we don't have to learn the hard way.

[T]he things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity-thou must commune with God. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God, than the vain imaginations of the human heart! None but fools will trifle with the souls of men. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 3:295)

[Lilli]

[T]he things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity-thou must commune with God. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God, than the vain imaginations of the human heart! None but fools will trifle with the souls of men. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 3:295)

Log,

I agree that it is not so easy to learn the thing of God and to come to understand his mind and will. But it is possible. Above all we must be living righteous so we have the Holy Spirit as our guide to discern and understand God's mind and will.

But Joseph's counsel to prove and compare all things before following anyone still applies. God does not want us doing or following anyone or anything unless we are 1st sure that it or they are right. That means we take the time and effort to pray, ponder and study things and people and leaders 1st and see if they are truly in harmony with Christ's teachings, before we follow or trust them.

[davedan]

Doctrine and Covenants 45:57
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day

LDS Leadership are not doing the deceiving. And those who faithfully harken to LDS Leadership are not the deceived.

Unless we can learn to submit to God's priesthood authority, we are not learning lesson #3. Obviously, loving God is Lesson #1. Control the body is #2. But how can we prepare future generations of spirits for their mortality if we have not first learned these lessons?

Are we to teach others to be constantly skeptical and suspicious of the Lord's annointed servants? God has given us His Church and Kingdom. In a day and age were there is nothing else we can put our trust in (Not even Libertarianism). We should rejoice that we can put our faith in Zion.

[log]

Doctrine and Covenants 45:57
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day

LDS Leadership are not doing the deceiving. And those who faithfully harken to LDS Leadership are not the deceived.

Are you sure?

Because I'm not so sure.

JST, Mark 9:44
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

[davedan]

Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure, The current LDS leadership are not in a state of apostacy. Current LDS Leadship are not deceiving us.

In fact Zion is the only place on Earth were we can place our trust.

When we put our faith and trust in LDS Leadership, we are putting our trust in Christ who they represent. We can independently verify their words by obedience and the prayer of faith.

[Lilli]

Doctrine and Covenants 45:57
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day

LDS Leadership are not doing the deceiving. And those who faithfully harken to LDS Leadership are not the deceived.

Unless we can learn to submit to God's priesthood authority, we are not learning lesson #3. Obviously, loving God is Lesson #1. Control the body is #2. But how can we prepare future generations of spirits for their mortality if we have not first learned these lessons?

Are we to teach others to be constantly skeptical and suspicious of the Lord's annointed servants? God has given us His Church and Kingdom. In a day and age were there is nothing else we can put our trust in (Not even Libertarianism). We should rejoice that we can put our faith in Zion.

I'm afraid you didn't read my post and my experiences, which are not just with local leaders. When faced with that reality you have to realize why it's so important to base your beliefs on Christ 1st and foremost.

Church leaders sometimes teach different opinions then each other or different then Christ, that doesn't mean they are trying to deceive us, just that they are fallible and thus why prophets command us to prove their words 1st before following them, for even they know they could be wrong at times, unintentionally, even if sincerely.

Only Christ was perfect and can't ever be wrong.

[Bgood]

:ymparty:

[log]

Are you sure?

When we put our faith and trust in LDS Leadership, we are putting our trust in Christ who they represent.

Why, then, has the Lord said not to put our faith and trust in any man? Are the LDS leadership not men, or not flesh?

JST, Mark 9:44
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

We can independently verify their words by obedience and the prayer of faith.

We can also independently falsify them by the same means.

[jdawg1012]

We can independently verify their words by obedience and the prayer of faith.

We can also independently falsify them by the same means.

I agree. When I converted, I was taught that everything a prophet says, MUST line up with the scriptures. Throughout my life I have learned that the entire message of the gospel, said a thousand ways, all still comes down to two things: Love God, and love your neighbor. Nothing God has given us ever given us detracts from that message.

I have learned that prophets contradict one another, and though much less frequently now, it still happens. Some blatantly contradict the scriptures (For example, Elder Bednar saying we choose to be offended, which is patently false. In one sense, we choose our reaction to being offended, but that doesn't mean that someone doesn't offend us. So long as we are mortal, we are subject to other mortals. The Savior even taught this). I have learned in life, that the prophets are not infallible. Still I can say, that despite a few glaring gospel contradictions (I just referenced one), that what the living prophets have taught is in line with the gospel. Even if I didn't understand something, or agree with it at first (this can probably be counted on one hand, the number of times it has happened), I still fee the truthfulness of it, and later the Spirit teaches me why it is true.

But this is not always the case. Some teachings are just plain incorrect. I have often heard opinion stated in conference. Elder Packer himself said that the Prophets receive revelation in the same way that the rest of us do. They may get promptings wrong. But I think that by and large, the teachings are true. But that doesn't mean every time a general authority speaks it is correct. But I have only ever seen small deviations by individual authorities, never an incorrect doctrine taught universally (that I have found). I've seen a lot of people make wild claims based upon one or two line blurbs, which is why I always check the source. And if it doesn't line up with the scriptures, agency and love, then it isn't true or from God.

[davedan]

Why, then, has the Lord said not to put our faith and trust in any man? Are the LDS leadership not men, or not flesh?

LDS Leadership are not men, and not flesh in the same way the Temple is the house NOT built by men's hands. (2 Cor 5:1) (Acts 7:48) (Acts 17:24)

Yet, the Lord's presence was seen over the Jewish Temple and Kirtland Temple, and the Lord is documented in scripture to have spoken with His prophets in the Jewish Temple, Kirtland Temple, and the Salt Lake Temple (Lorenzo Snow).

[log]

Why, then, has the Lord said not to put our faith and trust in any man? Are the LDS leadership not men, or not flesh?

LDS Leadership are not men, and not flesh in the same way the Temple is the house NOT built by men's hands. (2 Cor 5:1) (Acts 7:48) (Acts 17:24)

And there, we part ways.

Yet, the Lord's presence was seen over the Jewish Temple and Kirtland Temple, and the Lord is documented in scripture to have spoken with His prophets in the Jewish Temple, Kirtland Temple, and the Salt Lake Temple (Lorenzo Snow).

With respect to President Snow, the law of witnesses has not been obeyed, and he never claimed it himself that we have any record of; the claim was made for him.

[davedan]

And there, we part ways.

Lessons of Mortality:
#1 Love God
#2 Control the Body
#3 Submit to God's priesthood authority. ----> It's a difficult lesson to learn

[log]

And there, we part ways.

Lessons of Mortality:
#1 Love God
#2 Control the Body
#3 Submit to God's priesthood authority. ----> It's a difficult lesson to learn

I repeat: you err in that.

[jdawg1012]

And there, we part ways.

Lessons of Mortality:
#1 Love God
#2 Control the Body
#3 Submit to God's priesthood authority. ----> It's a difficult lesson to learn

Well,
Lessons Jesus named:

#1 Love God
#2 Love your neighbor

And everything else is merely given to get you to do these two things. (Or " On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.")

[log]

Well, I boil it down to this.

3 Nephi 14:12
12 Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

;)