Is anyone (in this life) perfect?

[log]

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

[Lilli]

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Scriptures like this one are awesome and wonderful. I just wish I knew of someone who really achieved it.

[log]

Would you believe a person who had?

Don't you believe the scripture?

What stops you from being one of those people by obeying the specific, actionable direction given in the scripture?

[Amonhi]

Scriptures like this one are awesome and wonderful. I just wish I knew of someone who really achieved it.[/quote]

If it's possible to attain perfection in this life, why does scripture say the following?

If we say that we have no sin (Greek: Present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8.)

What if a child or a retard or someone without the law were to say that? Would the truth be in them?

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Scriptures like this are misleading, but exactly correct, just not in the way that the majority interpret them. For example, the common interpretation is:

Option 1:
"Pray with all the energy of heart for God to give you charity and you will be filled with this love."

Option 2:
"Pray with all the energy of your heart about all the things that are important to you. If you do this, the natural result is that you will be filled with Charity."

My experience is that the second one is correct. Just like King Benjamin's address tells us to do something seemingly unrelated and we will get the blessings of perfect people. (ie, become and remain sinless). It I had the time of the world, I could provide a number of reasons why the second one produces Charity. But I have not the time. If you read King Benjamin's address with this verse and my interpretation in mind, I think you will see some new ideas.

Sometimes when we try to get something, we try really hard by doing the wrong thing. But when we do the right thing, it comes naturally.

Peace,
Amonhi

[inquirringmind]

Joseph Smith (and Christ) taught that we must possess true Charity in order to be perfect and be a true disciple of Christ.

He taught that without Charity we will be deceived to believe in and do falsehoods.

Has anyone ever known someone with true Christlike Charity or who was perfect? What where they like? What is their situation? How did they achieve such? How do you know they have true Charity and/or are perfect?

I would hope someone knows someone with true Charity, and who is a true disciple of Christ. For I'd like to see an example of it and know better how to gain it.

They're not LDS, and I can't say I believe in everything they teach (though they do interpret 1 Peter 3:19-20 much the way you do, and I do believe in that), but I know some very unique Christians about 90 minutes from here (in Eastern Md.)

At a time when I was nearly suicidal, someone on another forum mentioned some things about his church that interested me, I asked him some questions, and he sent me a link to an online publication called The Sharon Star (it's not my purpose to proselytize here, so I see no reason to provide a link unless someone is interested.)

I went there, read some things, emailed some questions, and was put in touch with an evangelist in another state, who contacted these brethren down in Eastern Md.

When they understood our situation, they invited me and my dad (a stroke survivor whose paralyzed on the left side of his body) down to their church, and since it was so far away, they booked us a hotel room for the night before their Sunday morning meeting (Comfort Inn.)

They met us there, put the room on their credit card, prayed for us, and took us out to dinner the evening we arrived.

Breakfast the next morning was included in the hotel bill they paid for, and after service (where they again prayed with and for us), when I expected a collection plate to be passed around, they gave me gas money.

They have never asked us to "join" their Church BTW, and they believe it's much bigger than any one denomination.

There have been times when they've paid the mechanic for repairs to our van, and last month (when we had trouble making ends meet) they had Benjamin oil (here in North East) schedule a heating fuel delivery and put it on their credit card.

They're a tithe paying Church, but since dad's on a fixed income, and I have no income, they've never asked us for anything.

They just keep giving, and if you want to talk about living the sermon on the mount, they do.

They wouldn't claim to be perfect, but they live the sermon on the mount more than I've ever seen any people do.

I wish my mom had known them, and if you want to talk about courage, selflessness, and love I could also talk about her too (and she wasn't LDS, and didn't claim to be perfect either.)

[BrentL]

Actually, if you check the Greek verb tense of Matthew 5:48, it's the future tense.

I just believe different that you do.

Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

this is from the sermon at the temple bountiful. I accept that at face value. I believe it is possible.

[inquirringmind]

Actually, if you check the Greek verb tense of Matthew 5:48, it's the future tense.

I just believe different that you do.

Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

this is from the sermon at the temple bountiful. I accept that at face value. I believe it is possible.

All that says is that it's Christ's will that we be perfect.

I believe that too.

And I believe we should strive for it in this life.

I just don't see any reason to believe that anyone gets all the way there in this life.

[Lilli]

Joseph Smith (and Christ) taught that we must possess true Charity in order to be perfect and be a true disciple of Christ.

He taught that without Charity we will be deceived to believe in and do falsehoods.

Has anyone ever known someone with true Christlike Charity or who was perfect? What where they like? What is their situation? How did they achieve such? How do you know they have true Charity and/or are perfect?

I would hope someone knows someone with true Charity, and who is a true disciple of Christ. For I'd like to see an example of it and know better how to gain it.

They're not LDS, and I can't say I believe in everything they teach (though they do interpret 1 Peter 3:19-20 much the way you do, and I do believe in that), but I know some very unique Christians about 90 minutes from here (in Eastern Md.)

At a time when I was nearly suicidal, someone on another forum mentioned some things about his church that interested me, I asked him some questions, and he sent me a link to an online publication called The Sharon Star (it's not my purpose to proselytize here, so I see no reason to provide a link unless someone is interested.)

I went there, read some things, emailed some questions, and was put in touch with an evangelist in another state, who contacted these brethren down in Eastern Md.

When they understood our situation, they invited me and my dad (a stroke survivor whose paralyzed on the left side of his body) down to their church, and since it was so far away, they booked us a hotel room for the night before their Sunday morning meeting (Comfort Inn.)

They met us there, put the room on their credit card, prayed for us, and took us out to dinner the evening we arrived.

Breakfast the next morning was included in the hotel bill they paid for, and after service (where they again prayed with and for us), when I expected a collection plate to be passed around, they gave me gas money.

They have never asked us to "join" their Church BTW, and they believe it's much bigger than any one denomination.

There have been times when they've paid the mechanic for repairs to our van, and last month (when we had trouble making ends meet) they had Benjamin oil (here in North East) schedule a heating fuel delivery and put it on their credit card.

They're a tithe paying Church, but since dad's on a fixed income, and I have no income, they've never asked us for anything.

They just keep giving, and if you want to talk about living the sermon on the mount, they do.

They wouldn't claim to be perfect, but they live the sermon on the mount more than I've ever seen any people do.

I wish my mom had known them, and if you want to talk about courage, selflessness, and love I could also talk about her too (and she wasn't LDS, and didn't claim to be perfect either.)

Thank you so much for sharing that. That is inspiring to know people like that. I believe that how we share our good fortune and how we take care of those in need around us is a huge part of gaining perfection and showing we really have charity. In fact if we don't do that the scriptures say all the praying, scripture study and church attendance in the world will just be in vain.

I think it's interesting you said your mom didn't claim to be perfect, though she was such a good example. I find that the more prideful people are the more they think they are righteous, and the more righteous people are the more they think they might be lacking. Even Christ didn't want to be called righteous. Interesting.

[inquirringmind]

Thank you Lilli.

[TZONE]

Log,

Loved the charity scripture. There is a reason why charity is associated with being "clothed"... "clothed in charity".

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Pray about it then.

Even the most righteous person on earth right now still commits sin. You would be foolish to believe otherwise. I thought this was basic stuff.

I disagree.

49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

Repentence is associated with sin, which both are associated with a telestial state. Ones who are sanctified are not under the bondage of sin. (Removed the condemnation). They don't need that "daily repentence" as joseph talked about for they are cleansed in Christs blood and are Perfect IN Him. And will continue to be perfect in him as they fulfill this requirement.

2 Nephi 32: 6:

"Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."

Even if one "messes up" or fails, they can still be considered perfect or without sin as moses smote the rock incorrectly making God angry with Him. When one forsakes God, they "turneth" from Him and forsake the Light.

You cannot sin and be in the presence of God.

1 nephi 15:34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.

Alma 13:10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

107:48 Enoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

49 And he saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually; and he walked with God three hundred and sixty-five years, making him four hundred and thirty years old when he was translated.

I believe perfection is relative to our mission or talents (could be wrong). If we fulfill them or "magnify our callings" (not church offices) we are being perfect at this current point of TIME. My ideas change a lot so don't take it these last thoughts as facts.

[Simon]

Being perfect BEFORE GOD is to have a FULLNESS OF CELESTIAL GLORY


Being perfect IN GOD is to have a PORTION OF THAT CELESTIAL GLORY IN US, him filling out the rest.


D&C 88:29 -29

29 Ye who are quickened by A PORTION of the celestial glory shall then receive the same, even a FULLNESS.

While on earth, we can become perfect in portion. The fullness of perfection will we receive "then".

A fullness of perfection means to know all things, to comprehend all things, to have experienced all things, to have accomplished all things. It is my believe that we can not possibly reach this fullness within this lifetime. Even Christ, who was perfect from the beginning, was still "perfected" in the work he accomplished.

Perfection is therefore an ongoing process, perfection is eternal progression.


All we can do in this lifetime is to gain a portion of that perfection, and therefore to become perfect in and through Christ. Through Christ because he prepared the path, In Christ because we have to walk that path, any by that take his name upon us literaly [/b]


The Light of Christ will enlighten that path, so that our mind can see

The Love of Christ, or charity, will enlighten our path, so that our heart can see


Without charity, even perfection would be in vain.

Perection in Christ:[/color]

Search diligently, listen carefully, find gratefully, act immedietly

.

[InfoWarrior82]

I disagree.

49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

I believe all who have not reached the age of accountability or do not have the capacity beyond a child fall under the category of "those which I have reserved unto myself".

All of us fall short of the grace of God. Every single one of us. Maybe it's possible to be perfect for... I don't know... an hour, two? Tops. Maybe 8 hours if you include sleeping. Even every idle word or thought will condemn us.

[log]

All of us fall short of the grace of God. Every single one of us.

All except for Job, Noah, Seth, the city of Enoch, the future city of Zion, and New Jerusalem, and so on and so forth throughout the Millennium, right?

[Simon]

I disagree.

49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

I believe all who have not reached the age of accountability or do not have the capacity beyond a child fall under the category of "those which I have reserved unto myself".

All of us fall short of the grace of God. Every single one of us. Maybe it's possible to be perfect for... I don't know... an hour, two? Tops. Maybe 8 hours if you include sleeping. Even every idle word or thought will condemn us.

It's not refering to children. It is talking about HOLY MEN, that they do NOT KNOW OF, which the Lord has reserved unto himselfe. Neither are children men, nor do we not know of them.. Here it is talking about another group of beings

[InfoWarrior82]

I don't think this scripture is refering to children. It is talkin about HOLY MEN, that they do NOT KNOW OF, which the Lord has reserved unto himselfe. Neither are children men, nor do we not know of them.. Here it is talking about another group of beings

In the Spirit realm, no one is a child.

[InfoWarrior82]

All of us fall short of the grace of God. Every single one of us.

All except for Job, Noah, Seth, the city of Enoch, the future city of Zion, and New Jerusalem, and so on and so forth throughout the Millennium, right?

If you want to take Simon's view, this would be incorrect because we know these guys.

But no, they are all covered by the atonement too.

[log]

But no, they are all covered by the atonement too.

Whoever said perfection was possible without Christ? Can you name even a single person who ever said that, ever, anywhere, at all?

[InfoWarrior82]

But no, they are all covered by the atonement too.

Whoever said perfection was possible without Christ? Can you name even a single person who ever said that, ever, anywhere, at all?

The atonement means to be reconciled to God. Without it, there would be no purpose for it. Thus, these men also need to be reconciled to God just like everyone else. Even Adam fell.

[log]

Which doesn't answer the question. :-??

[InfoWarrior82]

Which doesn't answer the question. :-??

Let me re-word it for your understanding, then.

Even these men need the atonement for the remission of their sins on a continual basis. There is only one that is good.

Also, there will even be sin during the Millennium.

[Simon]

It's not refering to children. It is talkin about HOLY MEN, that they do NOT KNOW OF, which the Lord has reserved unto himselfe. Neither are children men, nor do we not know of them.. Here it is talking about another group of beings

In the Spirit realm, no one is a child.

25 Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall KNOW THEM NOT

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall KNOW THEM NOT.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

3 Nephi 28

[log]

Which doesn't answer the question. :-??

Let me re-word it for your understanding, then.

Even these men need the atonement for the remission of their sins on a continual basis. There is only one that is good.

Which doesn't answer the question, still. The question was "Whoever said perfection was possible without Christ? Can you name even a single person who ever said that, ever, anywhere, at all?"

Also, there will even be sin during the Millennium.

Doctrine and Covenants 45
55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.

[InfoWarrior82]

It's not refering to children. It is talkin about HOLY MEN, that they do NOT KNOW OF, which the Lord has reserved unto himselfe. Neither are children men, nor do we not know of them.. Here it is talking about another group of beings

In the Spirit realm, no one is a child.

25 Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall KNOW THEM NOT

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall KNOW THEM NOT.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

3 Nephi 28

These are men who have been transfigured/translated. To become transfigured/translated means to become cleansed from all sin. In other words, a graduation of sorts. In other words, no longer mortal. So yes, technically, these men no longer sin.

[InfoWarrior82]

Which doesn't answer the question. :-??

Let me re-word it for your understanding, then.

Even these men need the atonement for the remission of their sins on a continual basis. There is only one that is good.

Which doesn't answer the question, still. The question was "Whoever said perfection was possible without Christ? Can you name even a single person who ever said that, ever, anywhere, at all?"

Also, there will even be sin during the Millennium.

Doctrine and Covenants 45
55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.

Interesting, I never argued that. What I am arguing is that no one will be able to achieve perfection without the Lord's grace and cleansing effect of the atonement. You seem to be arguing that it is possible (with the help of the Lord) to get to a point where you no longer sin for the rest of your life. You can believe that if you want to, but I'm saying it's impossible.

[log]

You seem to be arguing that it is possible (with the help of the Lord) to get to a point where you no longer sin for the rest of your life. You can believe that if you want to, but I'm saying it's impossible.

You have no basis for your claim, whereas I have a scriptural basis for mine, and have previously provided it.

Your assertion about sin in the Millennium seems at variance with the scripture as well.