Is anyone (in this life) perfect?

[InfoWarrior82]

Even you, log, wouldn't even know all the sins you commit each day.

How knowest thou the thoughts and intents of my heart?

Joseph Smith was talking about the sins that you know you commit daily without really making any effort to stop that sin.

How knowest thou the thoughts and intents of his heart?

Trust me. You don't know all of them. No one can know.

And it's quite obvious that's exactly what Joseph Smith meant.

[inquirringmind]

We cannot even go a single day without sinning.

"Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God."

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

"Sinneth not" in 1John 3:6 is in the Greek present tense.

Here's how The New International Version translates it.

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

And I think Joseph was saying that daily sin and repentance shouldn't be our goal.

I don't think he was saying we can attain the kind of perfection you're talking about in this life.

Both he and Paul seem to say they hadn't.

[log]

Even you, log, wouldn't even know all the sins you commit each day.

How knowest thou the thoughts and intents of my heart?

Joseph Smith was talking about the sins that you know you commit daily without really making any effort to stop that sin.

How knowest thou the thoughts and intents of his heart?

Trust me.

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

[InfoWarrior82]

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Pray about it then.

Even the most righteous person on earth right now still commits sin. You would be foolish to believe otherwise. I thought this was basic stuff.

[log]

I don't think he was saying we can attain the kind of perfection you're talking about in this life.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Moroni 10:21
21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

2 Nephi 26:30
30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

1 Timothy 1:5
5 Now the [purpose] of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[inquirringmind]

I would just like to say that the quote you posted by J.S. in the O.P. does not contradict becoming perfect... in Christ.

That would depend on what one means by being perfect in Christ, wouldn't it?

I'd be interested in knowing whether you and Log mean the same thing?

I'm under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong here Log, please clarify what you mean by your words whenever possible) that Log means it's actually possible to go for days, months, or years without sinning in thought, word, or deed.

Is that what you mean?

We cannot even go a single day without sinning. There are millions of ways we can sin and not even know it. It is futile to try and become perfect in this life. It's actually quite silly to even think we can. We all fall short. If it were possible to actually stop sinning on our own, then it would obliterate Christ's atonement. There is only one that's good, and that's the Father and the Son. Wit that being said, we can become better and better at following the commandments. Completely different. I recommend Stephen Robinson's book: Believing Christ.

I have Robbinson's book (the one with the parable of the Bicycle, right?)

A local high priest and ward mission leader gave it to me with the same advice.

Thank you.

[log]

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Pray about it then.

Even the most righteous person on earth right now still commits sin. You would be foolish to believe otherwise. I thought this was basic stuff.

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Your doctrine contradicts scripture.

[InfoWarrior82]

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Your doctrine contradicts scripture.

Your understanding of scripture is lacking. This is talking about living in sin. Knowingly. Joseph Smith saw God the father at age 14... yeah.. still sinning.

29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

[log]

Your understanding of scripture is lacking. This is talking about living in sin. Knowingly.

Unfortunately, the scripture says what the scripture says - as for interpreting, I follow Joseph's rule.

what is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. understood precisely as it read

29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

Which doesn't say what you're saying - are you sure it's my understanding which is lacking?

[InfoWarrior82]

I have Robbinson's book (the one with the parable of the Bicycle, right?)

A local high priest and ward mission leader gave it to me with the same advice.

Thank you.

That's the one!

[InfoWarrior82]

Your understanding of scripture is lacking. This is talking about living in sin. Knowingly.

Unfortunately, the scripture says what the scripture says - as for interpreting, I follow Joseph's rule.

what is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. understood precisely as it read

29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

Which doesn't say what you're saying - are you sure it's my understanding which is lacking?

So all those people that saw the Lord were PERFECT!? Joseph Smith who saw the Lord and the Father was PERFECT? No. NO. no .no no and no. So, it looks like I understand the scripture quite well.

We will always fall short. The Lord MAKES us perfect through his grace and is merciful when he sees our pure efforts.

[log]

So all those people that saw the Lord were PERFECT!?

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

Moroni 8:26
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

Joseph Smith who saw the Lord and the Father was PERFECT?

Following this sacred experience, Joseph declared that he rejoiced, and his soul was filled with love for many days.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

So, it looks like I understand the scripture quite well.

Ok.

[InfoWarrior82]

So all those people that saw the Lord were PERFECT!?

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

Moroni 8:26
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

Joseph Smith who saw the Lord and the Father was PERFECT?

Following this sacred experience, Joseph declared that he rejoiced, and his soul was filled with love for many days.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

Doesn't answer anything at all!

[InfoWarrior82]

Perfection Pending

Russell M. Nelson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


If I were to ask which of the Lord’s commandments is most difficult to keep, many of us might cite Matt. 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” 1

Keeping this commandment can be a concern because each of us is far from perfect, both spiritually and temporally. Reminders come repeatedly. We may lock keys inside the car, or even forget where the car is parked. And not infrequently we walk intently from one part of the house to another, only to forget the reason for the errand.

When comparing one’s personal performance with the supreme standard of the Lord’s expectation, the reality of imperfection can at times be depressing. My heart goes out to conscientious Saints who, because of their shortcomings, allow feelings of depression to rob them of happiness in life.

We all need to remember: men are that they might have joy—not guilt trips! 2 We also need to remember that the Lord gives no commandments that are impossible to obey. But sometimes we fail to comprehend them fully.

Our understanding of perfection might be aided if we classify it into two categories. The first could pertain uniquely to this life—mortal perfection. The second category could pertain uniquely to the next life—immortal or eternal perfection.
Mortal Perfection

In this life, certain actions can be perfected. A baseball pitcher can throw a no-hit, no-run ball game. A surgeon can perform an operation without an error. A musician can render a selection without a mistake. One can likewise achieve perfection in being punctual, paying tithing, keeping the Word of Wisdom, and so on. The enormous effort required to attain such self-mastery is rewarded with a deep sense of satisfaction. More importantly, spiritual attainments in mortality accompany us into eternity. 3

James gave a practical standard by which mortal perfection could be measured. He said, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man.” 4

Scriptures have described Noah, Seth, and Job as perfect men. 5 No doubt the same term might apply to a large number of faithful disciples in various dispensations. Alma said that “there were many, exceedingly great many,” 6 who were pure before the Lord.

This does not mean that these people never made mistakes or never had need of correction. The process of perfection includes challenges to overcome and steps to repentance that may be very painful. 7 There is a proper place for chastisement in the molding of character, for we know that “whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth.” 8

Mortal perfection can be achieved as we try to perform every duty, keep every law, and strive to be as perfect in our sphere as our Heavenly Father is in his. If we do the best we can, the Lord will bless us according to our deeds and the desires of our hearts. 9
Eternal Perfection

But Jesus asked for more than mortal perfection. The moment he uttered the words “even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,” he raised our sights beyond the bounds of mortality. Our Heavenly Father has eternal perfection. This very fact merits a much broader perspective.

Recently I studied the English and Greek editions of the New Testament, concentrating on each use of the term perfect and its derivatives. Studying both languages together provided some interesting insights, since Greek was the original language of the New Testament.

In Matt. 5:48, the term perfect was translated from the Greek teleios, which means “complete.” Teleios is an adjective derived from the noun telos, which means “end.” 10 The infinitive form of the verb is teleiono, which means “to reach a distant end, to be fully developed, to consummate, or to finish.” 11 Please note that the word does not imply “freedom from error”; it implies “achieving a distant objective.” In fact, when writers of the Greek New Testament wished to describe perfection of behavior—precision or excellence of human effort—they did not employ a form of teleios; instead, they chose different words. 12

Teleios is not a total stranger to us. From it comes the prefix tele- that we use every day. Telephone literally means “distant talk.” Television means “to see distantly.” Telephoto means “distant light,” and so on.

With that background in mind, let us consider another highly significant statement made by the Lord. Just prior to his crucifixion, he said that on “the third day I shall be perfected.” 13 Think of that! The sinless, errorless Lord—already perfect by our mortal standards—proclaimed his own state of perfection yet to be in the future. 14 His eternal perfection would follow his resurrection and receipt of “all power … in heaven and in earth.” 15

The perfection that the Savior envisions for us is much more than errorless performance. It is the eternal expectation as expressed by the Lord in his great intercessory prayer to his Father—that we might be made perfect and be able to dwell with them in the eternities ahead. 16

The Lord’s entire work and glory pertains to the immortality and eternal life of each human being. 17 He came into the world to do the will of his Father, who sent him. 18 His sacred responsibility was foreseen before the creation 19 and was foretold by all his holy prophets since the world began. 20

The atonement of Christ fulfilled the long-awaited purpose for which he had come to the earth. His concluding words upon Calvary’s cross referred to the culmination of his assignment—to atone for all humankind. Then he said, “It is finished.” 21 Not surprisingly, the Greek word from which finished was derived is teleios.

That Jesus attained eternal perfection following his resurrection is confirmed in the Book of Mormon. It records the visit of the resurrected Lord to the people of ancient America. There he repeated the important injunction previously cited but with one very significant addition. He said, “I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” 22 This time he listed himself along with his Father as a perfected personage. Previously he had not. 23

Resurrection is requisite for eternal perfection. Thanks to the atonement of Jesus Christ, our bodies, corruptible in mortality, will become incorruptible. Our physical frames, now subject to disease, death, and decay, will acquire immortal glory. 24 Presently sustained by the blood of life 25 and ever aging, our bodies will be sustained by spirit and become changeless and beyond the bounds of death. 26

Eternal perfection is reserved for those who overcome all things and inherit the fulness of the Father in his heavenly mansions. Perfection consists in gaining eternal life—the kind of life that God lives. 27
Ordinances and Covenants of the Temple

Scriptures identify other important prerequisites to eternal perfection. They relate to the ordinances and covenants of the temple. 28 No accountable individual can receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom without the ordinances of the temple. Endowments and sealings are for our personal perfection and are secured through our faithfulness. 29

This requirement also pertains to our ancestors. Paul taught “that they without us should not be made perfect.” 30 Again, in that verse, the Greek term from which perfect was translated was a form of teleios. 31

In latter-day revelation, the Lord was even more explicit. His prophet wrote: “My dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation. … They without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.” 32
Encouragement from the Savior’s Example

Our climb up the path to perfection is aided by encouragement from the scriptures. They hold the promise that we shall, if faithful in all things, become like Deity. John the beloved Apostle wrote:

“We should be called the sons [and daughters] of God. …

“… When he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” 33

Continuing encouragement comes as we follow the example of Jesus, who taught, “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” 34 His hope for us is crystal clear! He declared: “What manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.” 35 Thus, our adoration of Jesus is best expressed by our emulation of Jesus. 36

People have never failed to follow Jesus because his standards were imprecise or insufficiently high. Quite to the contrary. Some have disregarded his teachings because they were viewed as being too precise or impractically high! Yet such lofty standards, when earnestly pursued, produce great inner peace and incomparable joy.

There is no other individual to compare with Jesus Christ, nor is there any other exhortation equal to his sublime expression of hope: “I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” 37

This divine entreaty is consistent with the fact that, as begotten children of heavenly parents, we are endowed with the potential to become like them, just as mortal children may become like their mortal parents.

The Lord restored his church to help us prepare for perfection. Paul said that the Savior placed in the Church Apostles, prophets, and teachers, “for the perfecting of the saints, … for the edifying of the body of Christ:

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” 38

The perfect man described in Paul’s quotation is the completed person—teleios—the glorified soul!

Moroni taught how to gain this glorious objective. His instruction stands in any age as an antidote for depression and a prescription for joy. I echo his plea: “Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; … love God with all your might, mind and strength … [Then] ye may be perfect in Christ, … holy, [and] without spot.” 39

Meanwhile, brothers and sisters, let us do the best we can and try to improve each day. When our imperfections appear, we can keep trying to correct them. We can be more forgiving of flaws in ourselves and among those we love. We can be comforted and forbearing. The Lord taught, “Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now … ; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.” 40

We need not be dismayed if our earnest efforts toward perfection now seem so arduous and endless. Perfection is pending. It can come in full only after the Resurrection and only through the Lord. It awaits all who love him and keep his commandments. It includes thrones, kingdoms, principalities, powers, and dominions. 41 It is the end for which we are to endure. 42 It is the eternal perfection that God has in store for each of us. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[inquirringmind]

Pray about it then.

Even the most righteous person on earth right now still commits sin. You would be foolish to believe otherwise. I thought this was basic stuff.

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Your doctrine contradicts scripture.

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and R6 habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. (1 John 3:6, The Amplified Bible.)

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6, NIV.)

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6, ESV.)

Now if InfoWarior82's doctrine (and Robbinson's) is "contrary to scripture," why is the present tense used in 1 John 1:8?

If we say that we have no sin (Greek: Present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8.)

[InfoWarrior82]

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Perfection" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perfection

See this page in the original 1992 publication.

Author: Hawkins, Carol Lee

Through all generations, God has commanded his children to be perfect. His mandates to Abraham, "Walk before me, and be thou perfect" (Gen. 17:1), and to the Israelites, "Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God" (Deut. 18:13), were one with his charge, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48; cf. 3 Ne. 12:48).

Although the Savior's injunction is an unequivocal call to perfection, Latter-day Saints recognize that only he was totally without blemish or stain and was perfect in an infinite and absolute sense. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9).

Human beings are required to seek perfection in certain respects that are attainable in mortality only through Christ. The New Testament refers to "them that are perfect" (1 Cor. 2:6; cf. Matt. 19:21; James 3:2; Heb. 12:23), and the Greek word teleios, meaning "perfect," also means "complete, whole, fully initiated, mature." Such maturity and completeness consist of receiving the fulness of the gospel, walking by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repenting of one's sins, receiving necessary ordinances, being faithful to covenants with the Lord, obeying the Lord and submitting to his will, seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and having charity, "the bond of perfectness and peace" (D&C 88:125).

Latter-day prophets have taught that men and women can become perfect "in the spheres in which [they] are called to act…[and that] we may become as perfect in our sphere as God is perfect in his higher and more exalted sphere" (Smith, p. 252; cf. JD 6:99; 2:129; 10:223). Mortal beings have the comforting assurance that God "giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Ne. 3:7).

Mormons believe that Jesus Christ provides the means for all humans to become perfect. He is "the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by [him]" (John 14:6). Through his atoning sacrifice all men and women can repent and become perfected by having their sins and errors and the desire for sin removed. Ultimately, eternal life and godly perfection are gifts of God (D&C 14:7), rooted in the grace of God, redemption, individual righteousness, and being born of God. Human effort falls short; God's gift of grace compensates for this shortcoming, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Ne. 25:23).

The process by which faithful Saints advance toward perfection is gradual, made step by step. Just as the Savior "continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness" (D&C 93:13), so God gives his children milk before meat (1 Cor. 3:2; Heb. 5:12; D&C 19:22). "It is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength" (Mosiah 4:27). This process is variously described as a "ladder" (TPJS, p. 348), a "road" (DS 2:18-19), and a "process to be pursued throughout one's lifetime" (Kimball, p. 6). In 1831 the Lord admonished the Saints to "continue in patience until ye are perfected" (D&C 67:13).

Although to many the goal of perfection seems overwhelming, Christ promised, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matt. 11:30). While obedience to the commandments is essential, the spirit of perfection is contrary to ever-lengthening checklists of outward acts visible to others. Rather, prophets invite all to "come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; …and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you" (Moro. 10:32). Therein lies the power to overcome sin and discouragement.

The man or woman who seeks the perfection of the Redeemer participates in the Father's work of saving and exalting mankind: "He proceeds to help his frail fellow men in their attempts to progress; thus becoming a partner with God in working out the Plan of Salvation" (Widtsoe, p. 180). Latter-day Saints believe that they must become perfected and one in spirit, as individuals and as a body (Eph. 4:12), in order to inherit the kingdom of God. [See also Holiness; Sanctification.]


Bibliography

"Becoming Justified and Sanctified." In Relief Society Personal Study Guide, pp. 63-69. Salt Lake City, 1989.

Kimball, Spencer W. "Hold Fast to the Iron Rod." Ensign 8 (Nov. 1978):4-6.

Lund, Gerald N. "Are We Expected to Achieve Perfection in this Life?" Ensign 16 (Aug. 1986):39-41.

Smith, Joseph F. Gospel Doctrine, p. 252. Salt Lake City, 1939.

Widtsoe, John A. Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 180. Salt Lake City, 1960.

CAROL LEE HAWKINS

[log]

Latter-day prophets have taught that men and women can become perfect "in the spheres in which [they] are called to act…[and that] we may become as perfect in our sphere as God is perfect in his higher and more exalted sphere" (Smith, p. 252; cf. JD 6:99; 2:129; 10:223). Mortal beings have the comforting assurance that God "giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Ne. 3:7).

[InfoWarrior82]

Our Goal Is Perfection

William H. Bennett


Our Lord and Savior in His great Sermon on the Mount gave us our greatest challenge and most important goal when He said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.) In these words Jesus challenges us to strive for excellence in all that we do—to develop our talents and abilities—and above all to live in accordance with His teachings.

The pursuit of excellence should be major work of our lives. Many people, however, give little attention to it. Perhaps they feel that it is not possible for anyone to reach perfection in this life, and so they let the immediate pressures dominate their actions. While it is true that we cannot attain perfection in a total sense in this life, it is also true that we can attain perfection in many specific areas of activity. Furthermore, if we fail to do what we can and should do in this life, we may deprive ourselves forever of the opportunity to do those things later on and thus lose great eternal blessings.

Let us consider these words of one of our poets, Holland:
Heaven is not reached at a single bound;
But we build the ladder by which we rise
From the lowly earth to the vaulted skies,
And we mount to its summit round by round.

With that as our base, I’d like to mention some of the specific ways in which perfection has been or can be attained in this life.

Just a few weeks ago the summer Olympics were held in Montreal, Canada. Were you watching on TV when that fourteen-year-old Rumanian girl, Nadia Comaneci, obtained a perfect score of ten in four of her performances, and one other girl did it once? Or perhaps you viewed the track-and-field competition and saw sprinters, jumpers, or weightmen in action. Or perhaps you saw the swimmers and divers perform. If you did, you saw some great performances. Competitors, assisted by coaches and trainers, had spent many hours trying to achieve perfect coordination between mind and body and to get everything working together so that each competitor might reach his or her potential. In the case of the team competition, a correlation of effort among team members was of great importance. For example, in the relay races there were four runners to a team. The intent was to exchange the baton from runner to runner without losing any forward speed. The foursome that most nearly achieved this was usually the winner.

Success in athletic competition is pretty much a matter of attitude, knowledge, and skill. Inherent ability is important, but that alone is not enough. Do you remember the “Be Honest with Yourself” program sponsored by the MIA some years ago, in which inspirational recordings from outstanding athletes and others were made available for use throughout the Church? One of those records featured Robert Richards, an outstanding U.S. pole vaulter. He emphasized that the one thing that characterizes all great athletes is desire, and he told about a young lady from Holland whom he had met at the 1932 Olympic Games. As a girl she wanted to become an outstanding swimmer, but she got polio. She didn’t give up but continued her program. Improvement came slowly, but it came, and the day arrived when she was able to swim across the pool. She said that made her the happiest girl alive. Then the time came when she could swim the length of the pool, and then several lengths. She stayed with it day after day until finally she defeated the world’s greatest swimmers in her events at the 1932 Olympics.

Richards also told about Harold Connolly. He was born with a withered left arm—only one good arm. But what an arm it was! He became one of the world’s best in the sixteen-pound hammer throw.

Outstanding athletes think positively. They dream the impossible dreams; they reach for the unreachable stars; they say, “I can, I must, and I will”; and their achievements at times are unbelievable. This indomitable spirit also characterizes many of our handicapped people who because of war injuries, unfortunate accidents, or for other reasons have to face life against what seem to be impossible odds.

An article pertaining to the courage of a young lady from Nephi, Utah, who was seriously injured in a car accident appeared in the New Era recently. (See Carol Clark, “Making Tracks While the Sun Shines,” New Era, Sept. 1975, pp. 44–47.) Read it. It will inspire you to new heights in your lives.

As it is in athletics, so it is in other aspects of our living. There are artists, poets, and other writers, musicians, craftsmen, and technicians in many fields of activity who strive diligently to do their best in all they do and then try to make their best better. One of the best examples of this is our great Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the organists, and the “Spoken Word” presentations of Richard L. Evans and now more recently Spencer Kinard. The Choir members and others who have participated in these outstanding presentations over the years and the millions of people who have listened to them know that the unreachable star of perfection has been reached perhaps as well as it can be here in mortality. God bless them all for their dedicated, committed service.

With respect to spiritual matters, we can be perfect in this life in paying tithing; being honest in our dealings with others; having personal and family prayers; abstaining from the use of alcohol, tobacco, and drugs; holding family home evenings; and in reading the scriptures daily. We can if we really want to.

No one is perfect, but everyone should be striving for perfection. If we should stumble or fall as we travel life’s highway, let us apply the counsel given to us by Cliff Cushman, a member of the 1960 U.S. Olympic team. He won the silver medal in the 400-meter hurdles and was a top candidate for the gold medal in the 1964 Olympics; but in the American trials, he hit and tripped over a hurdle and was eliminated. Messages of sympathy poured in to him, and he replied with an open letter to the youth of his hometown, Grand Forks, North Dakota. He wrote:

“Over 15 years ago, I saw a star—first place in the Olympic Games. I literally started to run after it. In 1960 I came within three yards of grabbing it; this year I stumbled, fell and watched it recede four more years away. …

“In a split second all the many years of training, pain, sweat, blisters and agony of running were simply and irrevocably wiped out.

“But I tried! I would much rather fail knowing I had put forth an honest effort than never to have tried at all. …

“Certainly I was very disappointed in falling flat on my face. However, there is nothing I can do about it now but get up, pick the cinders from my wounds, and take one more step followed by one more and one more, until the steps turn into miles and miles into success.

“I know I may never make it. The odds are against me, but I have something in my favor—desire and faith. … At least I am going to try. How about you? … Unless your reach exceeds your grasp, how can you be sure what you can attain? …

“Let me tell you something about yourselves. … You are spending more money, enjoying more freedom, and driving more cars than ever before, yet many of you are very unhappy. Some of you have never known the satisfaction of doing your best in sports, the joy of excelling in class, the wonderful feeling of completing a job, any job, and looking back on it knowing that you have done your best. …

“I dare you to look up at the stars, not down at the mud, and set your sights on them that, up to now, you thought were unattainable. There is plenty of room at the top, but no room for anyone to sit down.

“Who knows? You may be surprised at what you can achieve with sincere effort. So get up, pick the cinders out of your wounds, and take one more step.

“I dare you!”

The last report I had on Cliff Cushman indicated that he was missing in action in the Vietnam war.

The Church is engaged in the greatest work in all the world—saving the souls of our Father’s children. It is important that each member know his or her duties and be dedicated and committed in carrying them out in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord. It is important that all concerned have vision of the total job to be done and his or her role with respect thereto. It is important that we marshall all the resources and get them working together in a correlated way so the Church can reach its full potential in helping the Lord bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Our goal is perfection for all of God’s children who will listen, accept, and live the gospel.

May we be successful in this, our greatest responsibility, is my humble prayer, in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.

[log]

No one is perfect

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

[InfoWarrior82]

No one is perfect

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Wow.. so the only two perfect people on earth: Christ and Job. Neither needed the atonement.

Perhaps it means that Job was made perfect in Christ? Most likely.

[log]

Perhaps it means that Job was made perfect in Christ? Most likely.

Again with the implicit strawman argumentation from you on this point. Who has ever, anywhere, at any time, said perfection was possible without Christ?

[inquirringmind]

No one is perfect

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Wow.. so the only two perfect people on earth: Christ and Job. Neither needed the atonement.

Perhaps it means that Job was made perfect in Christ? Most likely.

The main issue here seems to be what that means.

What is "mortal perfection"?

Russel M. Nelson starts out by saying "If I were to ask which of the Lord’s commandments is most difficult to keep, many of us might cite Matt. 5:48: 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' 1 Keeping this commandment can be a concern because each of us is far from perfect, both spiritually and temporally."

Was he right or wrong?

Does being "perfected in Christ" (here in mortality) mean never lusting after your wife, never losing your patience with your kids, never committing some sin of omission, and never having an evil or selfish thought?

Or does it mean trusting Christ (as Robbinson says in his book)?

Is that kind of perfection possible in mortality?

And if it is, why these scriptures?


If we say that we have no sin (Greek: Present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8.)

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble (Greek: Present tense) in many things. If anyone does not stumble (Greek: Present tense) in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses' mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (James 3:1-8.)

...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:8-14, believed to have been written in the last years of Paul's life.)

And why did Joseph Smith Jr. say (on the last years of his life) "I don’t want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous."

And "Although I do wrong, I do not the wrongs that I am charged with doing; the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature, like other men. No man lives without fault..."

[BrentL]

I believe a person can be perfect in this life. it may not be your definition of perfect, but I think as we are commanded to be so there must be a way. I believe that this is through Christ. no man may be perfect without the atonement.

[inquirringmind]

I believe a person can be perfect in this life. it may not be your definition of perfect, but I think as we are commanded to be so there must be a way. I believe that this is through Christ. no man may be perfect without the atonement.

Actually, if you check the Greek verb tense of Matthew 5:48, it's the future tense.

We're commanded to strive for perfection, and we can certainly only reach that goal in and through Christ, but the question here is whether it can be reached in this life?

The commentaries I've read say that the book of Philippians was written in 66 A.D.

That's the year that Paul was beheaded by Nero (and I suspect that those quotes from Joseph were in the last year of his life), so if the goal we're reaching for can be fully grasped in this life, why didn't Paul or Joseph reach it?

Why did Paul say:

...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:8-14, believed to have been written in the last years of Paul's life.)

And why did Joseph Smith Jr. say (on the last years of his life) "I don’t want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous."

And "Although I do wrong, I do not the wrongs that I am charged with doing; the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature, like other men. No man lives without fault..."

Why did Russel M. Nelson say "each of us is far from perfect, both spiritually and temporally"?

And why did John say:

If we say that we have no sin (Greek: Present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8.)

[Lilli]

Joseph Smith (and Christ) taught that we must possess true Charity in order to be perfect and be a true disciple of Christ.

He taught that without Charity we will be deceived to believe in and do falsehoods.

Has anyone ever known someone with true Christlike Charity or who was perfect? What where they like? What is their situation? How did they achieve such? How do you know they have true Charity and/or are perfect?

I would hope someone knows someone with true Charity, and who is a true disciple of Christ. For I'd like to see an example of it and know better how to gain it.