Is anyone (in this life) perfect?

[log]

I reject the "Amplified Bible" out of hand, as it contradicts the text of the Bible.

There's a reason none of these say "if we say we have not sinned (past tense), we deceive ourselves" (which is what it should say if your thesis is true.)

It is not "my" thesis - it is what the scriptures actually say.

There is a reason none of them say "If we say that we are not sinning now, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

And there is a reason none of them say "If we say that we shall not sin in the future, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This is not a subtle point. This is why 1 John 1 does not contradict 1 John 3, whereas on your reading, it appears it must.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Honestly, I'm not sure why many prefer to believe everyone dies in their sins; I'm not sure why many prefer to believe all are just as unholy and sinful as they are.

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

I am reminded of this nifty doctrine, in fact.

Alma 1:4
4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

That was the same offer Satan made in the divine council.

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

Lastly,

Alma 11:37
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

[inquirringmind]

1 John 3:6 is also in the present tense, and here are the translations I already offered you.

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. (1 John 3:6, The Amplified Bible.)

Note: The Amplified Bible was designed and intended to bring out the nuances of the Greek verb tenses btw.

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6, NIV.)

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6, ESV.)

I see no contradiction.

[log]

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6, NIV.)

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6, ESV.)

I see no contradiction.

If you insist that a person must continually sin, then not being able to see a contradiction between that, and these verses, is interesting.

Or are you taking the position that nobody lives in him, or abides in him?

[inquirringmind]

To continuously sin would be to do so without any regret, and without any repentance.

No one who abides in Him does that.

That's what I believe InfoWarior82 is saying, and what you can't seem to understand.

[log]

To continuously sin would be to do so without any regret, and without any repentance.

No one who abides in Him does that.

That's what I believe InfoWarior82 is saying, and what you can't seem to understand.

No, that is what the scriptures don't say.

But I will appreciate a straightforward answer: are you denying anyone lives in Christ, or abides in Christ?

Can one who lives in Christ, or abides in him, sin?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[inquirringmind]

To continuously sin would be to do so without any regret, and without any repentance.

No one who abides in Him does that.

That's what I believe InfoWarior82 is saying, and what you can't seem to understand.

No, that is what the scriptures don't say.

But I will appreciate a straightforward answer: are you denying anyone lives in Christ, or abides in Christ?

Can one who lives in Christ, or abides in him, sin?

You haven't proved that.

[log]

To continuously sin would be to do so without any regret, and without any repentance.

No one who abides in Him does that.

That's what I believe InfoWarior82 is saying, and what you can't seem to understand.

No, that is what the scriptures don't say.

But I will appreciate a straightforward answer: are you denying anyone lives in Christ, or abides in Christ?

Can one who lives in Christ, or abides in him, sin?

You haven't proved that.

I have quoted them; none of them say " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin without any regret and without any repentance; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin without any regret and without any repentance, because he is born of God."

Therefore, I have no need to prove anything else. The burden is on them who would say differently.

[inquirringmind]

But I will appreciate a straightforward answer: are you denying anyone lives in Christ, or abides in Christ?

I'll be glad to give you a straightforward answer.

Of course I believe there are those who live and abide in Christ.

Can one who lives in Christ, or abides in him, sin?

As these scriptures we've been discussing say (and as the LDS teaching manual InfoWarior82 quoted says), one who abides in Him cannot continuously sin.

They must continuously repent and be cleansed by the blood of Christ.

If we confess (present tense) our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9.)

[log]

And, finally, we go to 1 John 4. Skipping straight to the relevant stuff...

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

If those who are born again are, in this world, as God is, shall we then say God sins? Continuously, or not?

[log]

But I will appreciate a straightforward answer: are you denying anyone lives in Christ, or abides in Christ?

I'll be glad to give you a straightforward answer.

Of course I believe there are those who live and abide in Christ.

Can one who lives in Christ, or abides in him, sin?

As these scriptures we've been discussing say (and as the LDS teaching manual InfoWarior82 quoted says), one who abides in Him cannot continuously sin.

They must continuously repent and be cleansed by the blood of Christ.

The scripture doesn't say continuously. It does not speak of continuous sin in 1 John 3:6, neither does the scripture at any time speak of continuous repentance.

[log]

If we confess (present tense) our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9.)

And, after we have confessed (past tense) our sins, and are (past tense) cleansed from all unrighteousness, and are (past tense) born again, can (present tense) we sin (present tense) as long as we abide (present tense) in Christ? No, says John (1 John 3:6). And we who have been born again and abide in Christ, in this world, are (present tense) like God (1 John 4:17).

[inquirringmind]

And, finally, we go to 1 John 4. Skipping straight to the relevant stuff...

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

If those who are born again are, in this world, as God is, shall we then say God sins? Continuously, or not?

Did Paul sin after he said the following?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20.)

He wrote this later, and he said he had not yet attained perfection.

...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:8-14.)

This is what it means to be like Christ in this world.

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (John 15:18-19.)

And:

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. (1 Cor. 4:9-13,)

And:

Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. (2 Cor. 11:24-27.)

And:

From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. (Gal. 6:17.)

But was Paul perfect?

Once again, he wrote this after he said all these things:

...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:8-14.)

[log]

Paul's supposed personal failures, or lack thereof, are not relevant.

And, I submit, Paul was not always straightforward in his writings, by his own admission.

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

That may well include making himself seem to be a sinner, that he might gain sinners.

Peter noted:

2 Peter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[inquirringmind]

And, after we have confessed (past tense) our sins, and are (past tense) cleansed from all unrighteousness

None of the verbs in 1 John 1:9 are in the past tense.
"Confess" is present tense, "cleansed" is aorist, and "forgive" is second aorist.

[log]

And, after we have confessed (past tense) our sins, and are (past tense) cleansed from all unrighteousness

Those verbs are not in the past tense in 1 John 1:9.
"Confess" is present tense, "cleansed" is aorist, and "forgive" is second aorist.

I'm not referring directly to 1 John 1:9, but rather asking a rhetorical question, assuming we have, past tense, fulfilled the conditions of 1 John 1:9, which John answered in 1 John 3:6.

He's not saying "If we continually and perpetually are confessing our sins, Christ is faithful to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Being cleansed from all unrighteousness, or being born again, precludes that situation, you see, and obviates the need to confess new sins thereafter as long as we abide in Christ, since then we cannot sin, says John (1 John 3:6).

[log]

This is what it means to be as God is in this world.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

and

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Mere persecution is not what it means to be as God is; it is a consequence of being as God is.

Others are persecuted, too.

[inquirringmind]

I believe Peter was born again on the day of Pentecost, and I believe he did sin and repent after that.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Gal. 2:11-14.)

And it would appear that Paul wasn't without sin when he wrote the letter to the Philippians in the last year of his life.

And they both were like Christ in this world, in that suffered as He did.

And if Joseph really said this (quote below), and we're to believe him, he wasn't perfect either.

"Where is the man free from vanity? None ever were perfect but Jesus." ( TPJS pp.187-8)

[log]

I believe Peter was born again on the day of Pentecost, and I believe he did sin and repent after that.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Gal. 2:11-14.)

I think rather this may well have been a demonstration of one of Paul's ... interesting episodes.

[inquirringmind]

I believe Peter was born again on the day of Pentecost, and I believe he did sin and repent after that.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Gal. 2:11-14.)

I think rather this may well have been a demonstration of one of Paul's ... interesting episodes.

Earlier in this thread you asked me for some straightforward answers, and I gave them to you.

May I now ask you what you mean by "one of Paul's interesting episodes"?

I think it's clear that Peter was in the wrong here, but if he wasn't, wouldn't that mean that Paul was?

I've been saying all along that he wasn't perfect (as he himself said to the Philippians), and I assume we both agree he was still a great saint, who was born again, and who lived in Christ.

I think Joseph even said he saw him.

So you're not suggesting that he wasn't abiding in Christ when he confronted Peter, and wrote Galatians, 1 and 2nd Corinthians, and Philippians, are you?

What does "one of his interesting episodes" mean?

I don't understand, and I'm asking you for some clarification here.

Thank you.

[log]

I believe Peter was born again on the day of Pentecost, and I believe he did sin and repent after that.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Gal. 2:11-14.)

I think rather this may well have been a demonstration of one of Paul's ... interesting episodes.

Earlier in this thread you asked me for some straightforward answers, and I gave them to you.

May I now ask you what you mean by "one of Paul's interesting episodes"?

It is hypothesized by some that Paul had mental instability due to injuries sustained from having been stoned - that this was the famous "thorn in the flesh".

I think it's clear that Peter was in the wrong here, but if he wasn't, wouldn't that mean that Paul was?

It does seem that is the choice.

So you're not suggesting that he wasn't abiding in Christ when he confronted Peter, and wrote Galatians, 1 and 2nd Corinthians, and Philippians, are you?

It is possible. Can't really know without getting the answer directly from God, can we?

[inquirringmind]

I already know that Paul lived in Christ, and died for Christ, and was inspired of God when he wrote the two thirds of the New Testament that he wrote.

But I thank you for being straightforward.

Good night.

[log]

Incidentally, it is doctrinal within the LDS faith that Paul sometimes wrote stuff that did not come from the Lord, which yet became part of the Bible. Inspiration wasn't the criterion upon which the Biblical canon was selected.

D&C 74
1 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else were your children unclean, but now are they holy.

2 Now, in the days of the apostles the law of circumcision was had among all the Jews who believed not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

3 And it came to pass that there arose a great contention among the people concerning the law of circumcision, for the unbelieving husband was desirous that his children should be circumcised and become subject to the law of Moses, which law was fulfilled.

4 And it came to pass that the children, being brought up in subjection to the law of Moses, gave heed to the traditions of their fathers and believed not the gospel of Christ, wherein they became unholy.

5 Wherefore, for this cause the apostle wrote unto the church, giving unto them a commandment, not of the Lord, but of himself, that a believer should not be united to an unbeliever; except the law of Moses should be done away among them,

6 That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews;

7 But little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and this is what the scriptures mean.

As I said, you never can know until God tells you directly.

[inquirringmind]

Actually, it was Paul himself (in the Bible) who said:

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. (1 Cor. 7:12-15.)

And if D&C 74 is inspired scripture, it turns out that even though Paul didn't have any direct personal revelation on this, he was right.

Wherefore, for this cause the apostle (Paul) wrote unto the church, giving unto them a commandment, not of the Lord, but of himself, that a believer should not be united to an unbeliever; except the law of Moses should be done away among them, That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews...and this is what the scriptures mean. (D&C 74:5-7.)

Good night again.

[Simon]

O:-)