Is anyone (in this life) perfect?

[inquirringmind]

If it's possible to attain perfection in this life, why does scripture say the following?

If we say that we have no sin (Greek: Present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8.)

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble (Greek: Present tense) in many things. If anyone does not stumble (Greek: Present tense) in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses' mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (James 3:1-8.)

...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:8-14, believed to have been written in the last years of Paul's life.)

And why did Joseph Smith Jr. say (on the last years of his life) "I don’t want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous."

And "Although I do wrong, I do not the wrongs that I am charged with doing; the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature, like other men. No man lives without fault..."

[log]

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Genesis 6:9
9 ¶These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

1 john 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

&C. (there is more than I have posted.)

[inquirringmind]

But that doesn't really answer the question in the OP, does it?

You're just pitting one set of scriptures against another, and not giving me your understanding of the ones I already cited.

Now let's look at some of the scriptures you cited (and I'll try and do better.)

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth (Greek: Present tense, which would seem to indicate there's still some imperfection, because the purifying is still going on) himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:3.)

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not (Greek: Present tense, often translated "doesn't practice," or "continue" in sin): whosoever sinneth *(Greek tense: The same) hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:6.)

I could go on, but I think you'll find this pattern is remarkably consistent.

So why is the present tense used in 1 John 1:8?

If we say that we have no sin (Greek: Present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8.)

[log]

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

As a general rule, I don't interpret the scriptures for people.

But here's another fun one.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[inquirringmind]

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Do you remember posting this reply to Amonhi (when he made a similar suggestion to you)?

Sometimes, I don't need to ask, really.

As a general rule, I don't interpret the scriptures for people.

I think the scriptures I cited speak for themselves (as do the N.T. verses you cited, if you look at the Greek verb tenses.)

But here's another fun one.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

In context, have you seen verse 20?

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Interesting.

John assumes here that his readers haven't seen God.

How then (in your view) could they be perfect?

Verse 17 seems to be talking about the overall (present tense) direction of one's life (as I believe all the old and new testament verses you cited are.)

[log]

Well, there you go. Interpret for yourself; no man's opinion is worth a straw.

[log]

Actually, you asked a question I can answer.

How then could they be perfect?

Colossians 3:14
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

This is repeated.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

Possession of charity is perfection. That's all the word means; if you possess charity, you are complete, lacking nothing, keeping the whole law.

1 Timothy 1:5
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.

Hence, this.

Matthew 7:12
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

That is a succinct description of charity.

Charity implies a lot, and would take a much longer post.

[triple777]

In fact, the brother of Jarrod had his calling and election made sure, meaning he was sealed up to Eternal Life. Yet, he was not taken from the earth was he? Was he a perfect man? no he was not. So how could the Savior grant him Eternal Life to a non perfect man? The only perfect man on this earth that has ever lived would be Jesus Christ himself.

Now the brother of Jarrod was going to the celestial kingdom and was told by the savior himself. Yet he was not perfect. How can this be? The meaning of perfect here has to be viewed with the, ever atoning of the Christ, glasses on. Man on his own in this mortality can not attain perfection. The Key here is "on his own", meaning without the help of God, man may not be perfect or perfected only in and through the atonement of Christ may a man become perfect (ed).

What does the the Lord mean when he says JOB was a perfect man even though we know it is impossible to be perfect in this life for a mortal for as it says in the good book "All men sin". Well, for me this is rather an easy concept to understand.

Job was perfect in following the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He was perfect in remembering the Savior in all his doings. He was perfect in knowing he was a sinner and needed forgiveness of his sins on a daily basis. He was perfect in when he sinned and when moved by the spirit to repent he repented. He took the sacrament (as it were) every week being prepared each week to receive forgiveness of his sins.

The brother of Jarrod even though sealed up, still had a mission to fulfill on this earth, namely to build some barges and move to the Americas after the tower of Babel and populate that land and teach his offspring the good news of Jesus Christ. The Savior knew his character to be true. He knew he would sin again but even so he knew with each mistake he would humble himself in the depths of humility and ask for forgiveness again. So no the brother of Jacob was not perfect yet he followed the Gospel of Jesus Christ as well as any mortal man may. That is what is meant by Noah was perfect, Job was a perfect man.

This should give hope to all Saints. I know men and women in my own ward who I would call perfect using this definition. When the Lord commands us to be perfect, we need not think we have to be programmed robots to achieve this perfection. This can be achieved in each of our lives and does not have to be any harder than we make it. Do our best to follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ and when we fail to do so. Repent at your earliest time and return to the path. Now some of us do this much better than others. Some of us have done this for years and may not feel perfect which we, in this life, will never feel perfect but we can feel that our lives are wholesome and bright and clean before the Lord. Which only the Holy Ghost can tell you if your life is clean before the Lord. I believe this is what this really means, to be perfect. For how would the Lord give us a commandment that knew was impossible for us to obey? He has never given a commandment we could not obey. I think most people just mis-understand this command in particular what is meant by perfection. I also hear in talks all the time that we can not do this until the next life, the resurrected life. I think I have just shown it is possible and is doable in this life if we understand the meaning of perfection in Christ is.

Hope that helps.

[inquirringmind]

For how would the Lord give us a commandment that knew was impossible for us to obey? He has never given a commandment we could not obey.

I thought He gave the early Latter Day Saints some commandment that (He must have known, in His foreknowledge) they couldn't obey?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to crequire that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings. (D&C 124:49.)

Now, back to the OP.

If you believe that it's possible for a man to be perfected (and have perfect love) in this life, why did the Apostle James say "we all stumble"?

For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. (James 3:2.)

And why did the greatest Apostle and prophet of the primitive Church (who wrote two thirds of the New Testament) say he hadn't attained perfection only a year or so before his death?

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:12.)

And why did Joseph Smith Jr. say much the same thing only a year or so before his death?

And why did Joseph Smith Jr. say (on the last years of his life) "I don’t want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous."

And "Although I do wrong, I do not the wrongs that I am charged with doing; the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature, like other men. No man lives without fault..."

Now, if you believe that Jesus is the perfect example, and Peter was inspired when he wrote "For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously" (1 Peter 2:20-23), and what you've written about the ANL's, why did Joseph fire a gun into the mob minutes before he died?

The gun was offered to by someone who smuggled it into the jail, he and his brother and their friends were in danger of losing their lives, and I imagine things got pretty tense when the mob was breaking down the door, so I can cut him some slack, because I see no reason to believe he had to be perfect.

But if he was perfected (with perfect Charity), why did he accept a gun that was illegally smuggled to him, why did he attempt to fire it six times, and why did it misfire three times?

If God told him to fire the gun, don't you think He could have made the bullets leave their chambers and find their evil targets all six times?

And if Joseph wasn't perfect, then (given your view) why wasn't he?

And if you (or Amonhi, or anyone else) have really progressed beyond Joseph, and James, and Paul, why don't you have Thomas Monson's job?

Why aren't you leading the LDS Church?

[InfoWarrior82]

If it's possible to attain perfection in this life, why does scripture say the following?

Wait... there are people that actually think they can achieve perfection in this life?

It's not possible on our own. Only with Christ's atonement, we are not perfected. We are only washed until the next time we drop the ball. It's an ongoing process that will go on throughout the eternities until we are completely perfect.

[log]

Wait... there are people that actually think they can achieve perfection in this life?

2 Nephi 26:30
30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

[InfoWarrior82]

Wait... there are people that actually think they can achieve perfection in this life?

2 Nephi 26:30
30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Perfection when applying Christ's atonement. And it's still a temporary perfection. Enduring to the end with the gospel will ensure our perfection in the life to come.

[log]

Perfection when applying Christ's atonement.

Why does everyone act astonished that that should be the case? Where has anyone, anywhere, ever said differently?

[inquirringmind]

If it's possible to attain perfection in this life, why does scripture say the following?

Wait... there are people that actually think they can achieve perfection in this life?

It's not possible on our own. Even with Christ's atonement, we are not perfected. We are only washed until the next time we drop the ball. It's an ongoing process that will go on throughout the eternities until we are completely perfect.

I tend to agree (and if I were more up on General Conference, and back issues of the Ensign, I'm sure I could quote GA's who do too.)

[InfoWarrior82]

Perfection when applying Christ's atonement.

Why does everyone act astonished that that should be the case? Where has anyone, anywhere, ever said differently?

It seemed like the O.P. was saying that. Yeah, it should be a no-brainer for any LDS.

[InfoWarrior82]

If it's possible to attain perfection in this life, why does scripture say the following?

Wait... there are people that actually think they can achieve perfection in this life?

It's not possible on our own. Even with Christ's atonement, we are not perfected. We are only washed until the next time we drop the ball. It's an ongoing process that will go on throughout the eternities until we are completely perfect.

I tend to agree (and if I were more up on General Conference, and back issues of the Ensign, I'm sure I could quote GA's who do too.)

I would just like to say that the quote you posted by J.S. in the O.P. does not contradict becoming perfect... in Christ.

[inquirringmind]

Perfection when applying Christ's atonement.

Why does everyone act astonished that that should be the case? Where has anyone, anywhere, ever said differently?

It seemed like the O.P. was saying that. Yeah, it should be a no-brainer for any LDS.

Did it seem to you like I was saying (in the OP)ithat t's possible for someone to attan perfection in this life?

Did the scriptures I quoted (in the OP) seem to support that thesis?

Isn't that your thesis Log (or have I misunderstood you entirely)?

[inquirringmind]

I would just like to say that the quote you posted by J.S. in the O.P. does not contradict becoming perfect... in Christ.

That would depend on what one means by being perfect in Christ, wouldn't it?

I'd be interested in knowing whether you and Log mean the same thing?

I'm under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong here Log, please clarify what you mean by your words whenever possible) that Log means it's actually possible to go for days, months, or years without sinning in thought, word, or deed.

Is that what you mean?

[triple777]

@ inquirringmind

My post was put up in an easy to understand format. Please read it more carefully and study it out. The path to greater knowledge is not won in a day. I am not trying to judge who is more perfect than who nor will I entertain those questions. Those judgements are for the LORD. I will say that no one who is righteous comes out and says, "hey I'm righteous look at me" and if they do you know they are a lair. Part of following the Savior is acknowledging that no matter what you do for and in the name of the Lord you are still an unprofitable servant. That is why Joseph Smith said what he said yet is Joseph Smith going to hell? Please. No disciple of the Savior boast of his own righteousness.

[Simon]

As soon as you are free of sin, Christ will call you perfect. We can all reach that within this life.

No one of us can reach that point though without the merits of Christ.

No one of us can receive the fullness of perfection in this life, as to know all things, comprehend all things, and as to have all power and glory the father posesses.

Two different kinds of perfection

[InfoWarrior82]

I would just like to say that the quote you posted by J.S. in the O.P. does not contradict becoming perfect... in Christ.

That would depend on what one means by being perfect in Christ, wouldn't it?

I'd be interested in knowing whether you and Log mean the same thing?

I'm under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong here Log, please clarify what you mean by your words whenever possible) that Log means it's actually possible to go for days, months, or years without sinning in thought, word, or deed.

Is that what you mean?

We cannot even go a single day without sinning. There are millions of ways we can sin and not even know it. It is futile to try and become perfect in this life. It's actually quite silly to even think we can. We all fall short. If it were possible to actually stop sinning on our own, then it would obliterate Christ's atonement. There is only one that's good, and that's the Father and the Son. Wit that being said, we can become better and better at following the commandments. Completely different. I recommend Stephen Robinson's book: Believing Christ.

[log]

We cannot even go a single day without sinning.

"Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God."

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

[inquirringmind]

@ inquirringmind

My post was put up in an easy to understand format. Please read it more carefully and study it out. The path to greater knowledge is not won in a day. I am not trying to judge who is more perfect than who nor will I entertain those questions. Those judgements are for the LORD. I will say that no one who is righteous comes out and says, "hey I'm righteous look at me" and if they do you know they are a lair. Part of following the Savior is acknowledging that no matter what you do for and in the name of the Lord you are still an unprofitable servant. That is why Joseph Smith said what he said yet is Joseph Smith going to hell? Please. No disciple of the Savior boast of his own righteousness.

I re-read your post, and I think I understand this.

Job was perfect in following the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He was perfect in remembering the Savior in all his doings. He was perfect in knowing he was a sinner and needed forgiveness of his sins on a daily basis. He was perfect in when he sinned and when moved by the spirit to repent he repented. He took the sacrament (as it were) every week being prepared each week to receive forgiveness of his sins.

You said Job was perfect "in knowing he was a sinner and needed forgiveness of his sins on a daily basis."

So I take it you don't believe it's possible for a mortal man to go for days, months, or years without sinning in thought, word, or deed (in things done and in things left undone), and being in need of the atonement, and without needing to turn to God in repentance?

I really believed some had been teaching that mortal men can do this, and if I misunderstood anyone, I apologize.

Do we all agree on this?

Has there been some misunderstanding on my part?

[InfoWarrior82]

We cannot even go a single day without sinning.

"Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God."

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Even you, log, wouldn't even know all the sins you commit each day. Joseph Smith was talking about the sins that you know you commit daily without really making any effort to stop that sin. We can get real good in stopping certain sins, while others we commit freely.

Then there's the issue of serious sins. Those are the easiest to notice and therefore most able to correct.

[log]

Even you, log, wouldn't even know all the sins you commit each day.

How knowest thou the thoughts and intents of my heart?

Joseph Smith was talking about the sins that you know you commit daily without really making any effort to stop that sin.

How knowest thou the thoughts and intents of his heart?