Statement on the problems with the Book of Abraham

[cayenne]

Theories, not so fast hannant. I have given you links in the past and it seems you have no interest. Why don't you spend 1 hour studying the lachish letters and then tell me what you find. Maybe you can explain how Joseph came up with all detailed information on 600bc ish Jerusalem verified by those letters found nearly 100 years after his death. Up till then no one knew what the conditions were like back then...lucky....I don't think so....theory, nope.

Same goes for book of Abraham....read the Lindsay link for starters, etc
L

I cannot get anywear with someone who will not look at the evidence on the other side. Then you must way the evidences. If you were a judge you would be called corrupt because you refuse to look at the evidence on the other side. If and when you decide to, you may change your mind, but I think you hate joseph and Mormonism and you want out, and want to bring others down with you. It is not happening with me ever.

This is not meant to be a personal attack, I do care about you, but if you continue to rant about what a supposed fraud joseph was then please leave the forum.

[freedomforall]

Then deny it, please. Please tell me I have misunderstood your intent.

I already answered that, no name was inferred, no need to take it personal. I think it best to let you get back to Hannant because I know nothing about Papyrus. In fact, I'm sorry I tried to reason with you. I made a mistake in doing so. Go back to your discussion. This is the end of my efforts on the matter. I think I know when to back away, and that's just what I'm doing. I did learn a few things from our conversation, however.

[log]

Then deny it, please. Please tell me I have misunderstood your intent.

I already answered that, no name was inferred, no need to take it personal. I think it best to let you get back to Hannant because I know nothing about Papyrus. In fact, I'm sorry I tried to reason with you. I made a mistake in doing so. Go back to your discussion. This is the end of my efforts on the matter. I did learn a few things from our conversation, however.

I note that not only have you not previously denied it, you are not denying it now, and are attempting rather to make it appear you have denied it.

8-|

[Hannant]

I'm done log

You are a blind fool.

Your pathetic attempt to twist reality prove you have nothing of substance. Married but not married. What a joke you are.

Just like the leaders of this church. Devoid of any inspiration.

the European document leaked this week showed that. Recycled programs that don't work. More guilt and more pressure on those who are left

more child missionaries thrown to the wolves.

No doubt you are a flunky for the church.

I'm going to join my wife and kids and leave.

Senior members. Stalwarts, 25 years and hundreds of thousands given, for what? to build malls. Is that the kingdom I covenanted to? I thought I was going to covenant to Christ, or HIS kingdom. Instead, my time, money, talents, life, to the church. Yeah, I understand your covenant

Sadly we can't resign either, because we aren't actually members of it. You know what we are? Not even shareholders, we are only contributors

I have since learned the church is a Corporation, a company, with Thomas Monson the sole director.

What a mess

Please don't delete my post. its my last one.
But mods you can block my access and cancel my account.

Anyone can go to Mormonthink, or heck, just go to LDS web sites, if you want to see how wrong it all is.

And Denver is not The solution

Good bye, good luck. Wake up, stop suppressing, find Jesus. He is out there, and its really simple, not millions of man made rules

[log]

I'm done log

You are a blind fool.

I may be a fool, and I may be blind, but I can see well enough to read the words "red ink."

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Good bye, good luck. Wake up, stop suppressing, find Jesus. He is out there, and its really simple, not millions of man made rules

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[Epistemology]

There's so many problems with this thread I wouldn't have the time or energy to address it all but here is some bullet points:

1. Hannant, obviously you have not received a witness from the HG about the truth of the PoGP or if you have you have forgotten. It doesn't matter what anyone claims about evidence take it to the Lord. But too many people don't wanna do that. Maybe it's a "YOU" problem and not a "THEM" problem.

2. log, just because you post articles doesn't make them true, you always claim you have proven others claims to be false but all you have really done most of the time is give evidence to support your position. Why is your evidence the proof? both of you posted evidence to support your claim written by scholars or witnesses but YOURS is supposed to be accepted and non compliance makes someone a liar??? that's crazy talk. I do believe that Hannants claims are incorrect however. Also, you have instructed this forum to trust NO MAN so why should we trust your citations?

3. I agree with Freedom... lying implies knowing. Hanant may be wrong but not lying

[buffalo_girl]

Good grief!

Merry Christmas, Everyone!

I know, I know...there's NO proof Jesus every existed or if he did, when he was actually born.

The sheep were sacred Temple sheep, I'm told. The shepherds were probably out on the hills while the ewes were lambing which might suggest Spring.

Nice story, anyway...

[Epistemology]

crime statistics, evil people, evil acts, wars...

therefore, love does not exist.

haha
(example of crazy logic)

[inquirringmind]

Enjoying his eternal reward, with God testifying to honest seekers that he was a true prophet.

No doubt.
But we've shown he lied about him being married to more than one woman

Did he deny that specifically? You know, I went looking for specific verbiage to that effect and wasn't quite able to come up with it. What I did find was he said this.

A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives...I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers...

Interestingly worded, I think. If merely being sealed to a woman means she is necessarily a wife, then perhaps one can say he lied. I'm not sure he thought a woman to whom one was merely sealed is necessarily a wife.

Abraham lied.

Where?

So how does your assertion work now?

As intended.

I think I pointed that out on another thread.

After you posted this.

For him to be right that prophets are always dealt with by the Lord, and never by anyone that is not the Lord, one of them has to be a false prophet.

See?

Log, log, log... *shakes head* No, my brother, no. Just no.

How I measure a true prophet from a false prophet in this chapter:

the old man "LIED". Yeah, didn't you read that word? I'm sure you did! If not, you can go back and read it again. So the dude LIIIIEEED when he said the Lord and His angels told him to say the things he said.

Case. Closed.

Joseph lied about polygamy.

Case. Closed.

I can't find my post (and I don't recall deleting it), but I thought I asked you where Joseph lied about polygamy, what words he used, and pointed out there might be some distinction between being fully married for time and eternity (as he was to Emma) and being sealed for eternity only (as he may have been to the others.)

Was it after this that you went looking for specific verbiage?

Am I remembering that right, or did I just imagine it?

(I know I was thinking of this paper by Kerry Shirts when I read your post, and I thought I said something.)

[log]

I believe I pointed out in that thread that I should have used a hypothetical construction in the first instance, as I have here in this thread.

"If merely being sealed to a woman means she is necessarily a wife, then perhaps one can say he lied."

[inquirringmind]

I believe I pointed out in that thread that I should have used a hypothetical construction in the first instance, as I have here in this thread.

"If merely being sealed to a woman means she is necessarily a wife, then perhaps one can say he lied."

Thank you.

So then you never thought he lied a few short months before he died?

[log]

I believe I pointed out in that thread that I should have used a hypothetical construction in the first instance, as I have here in this thread.

"If merely being sealed to a woman means she is necessarily a wife, then perhaps one can say he lied."

Thank you.

So then you never thought he lied a few short months before he died?

Originally I thought he might well have, being stuck between a rock (the commandment of God to keep these things hidden from the world) and a hard place (the need to defend himself from the accusations from the world).

When I investigated, I realized that whether he lied or not strictly depended on whether a woman to whom one is merely sealed is necessarily a wife.

I hate parsing.

[inquirringmind]

Thank you Log.

[Elizabeth]

Good grief!

Merry Christmas, Everyone!

I know, I know...there's NO proof Jesus every existed or if he did, when he was actually born.

The sheep were sacred Temple sheep, I'm told. The shepherds were probably out on the hills while the ewes were lambing which might suggest Spring.

Nice story, anyway...

6 April

Merry Christmas all.

[inquirringmind]

...critics depend critically upon the false claim that we have the papyrus from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon...

Don't you mean "the book of Abraham" here?

[log]

Because the critics depend critically upon the false claim that we have the papyrus from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon to discredit the Book of Abraham, and, by extension, the prophethood of Joseph Smith, it is not appropriate to let that lie go unchallenged, even as often as the lie is spoken.

Should read

Because the critics depend critically upon the false claim that we have the papyrus from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham to discredit the Book of Mormon, and, by extension, the prophethood of Joseph Smith, it is not appropriate to let that lie go unchallenged, even as often as the lie is spoken.

and it has been fixed.

[inquirringmind]

Because the critics depend critically upon the false claim that we have the papyrus from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon to discredit the Book of Abraham, and, by extension, the prophethood of Joseph Smith, it is not appropriate to let that lie go unchallenged, even as often as the lie is spoken.

Should read

Because the critics depend critically upon the false claim that we have the papyrus from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham to discredit the Book of Mormon, and, by extension, the prophethood of Joseph Smith, it is not appropriate to let that lie go unchallenged, even as often as the lie is spoken.

and it has been fixed.

Thank you.