You a Savior?

[Simon]

Do we need to have the experience of being a Saviour ourselves on the worlds we will create as a God, or will we not need to go through that because it is Christ alone who makes us perfect? Are there many Saviours or one only?

Lets discuss

[log]

Those who know can't say, and those who say don't know.

And it ain't in the scriptures.

[Simon]

Those who know can't say, and those who say don't know.

You definetly got a point here. So, can we say the church doesn't know because it ( presently )teaches that there won't be other saviours ?

And it ain't in the scriptures.

I wouldn't say that. I find that there are in deed scriptures that give us hints and ideas about it. But no doubt, a discussion about it will be similar as discussion about mmp's, depending on the view of things.

Especially in the light of Amonhis question though, wether we can always rely upon the atonement of Christ, or wether this will one day come to an end ( when being God's ourselves ), this is interesting to ponder about. So.. even if some may not want to discuss about it, this could be a question to turn to the Lord with.

[davedan]

Christ's Atonement was infinite. So, we don't become "Saviors" in that sense.

But scriptures command that we are Saviors upon Mount Zion in Another sense that we live the gospel and become a light to the nations. we are the preserving salt. and through missionary work and temple work we help being people to Christ.

This isnt about taking Christ's place but helping people come to Christ and enter into covenant with him like Abraham.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;
10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 103)

21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s. (Old Testament, Obadiah, Obadiah 1)

[Hippophibia]

NO, you can only have one mortality and one resurrection!
Will your your first born (spiritual) have to one day become a saviour? - no idea (perhaps vicariously).

{Christ alone who makes us perfect?} One would have already obtained perfection prior to creating other worlds and populating them with spirits.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

One of the rungs on Jacob's ladder.

[Simon]

Christ's Atonement was infinite. So, we don't become "Saviors" in that sense.

But scriptures command that we are Saviors upon Mount Zion in Another sense that we live the gospel and become a light to the nations. we are the preserving salt. and through missionary work and temple work we help being people to Christ.

This isnt about taking Christ's place but helping people come to Christ and enter into covenant with him like Abraham.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;
10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 103)

21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s. (Old Testament, Obadiah, Obadiah 1)

Thank you Devadan,

Whie reading your post I remembered one quote of Joseph Smith

For all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned. Solemn thought!—dreadful thought! Is there nothing to be done?—no preparation—no salvation for our fathers and friends who have died without having had the opportunity to obey the decrees of the Son of Man
Hence God hath made a provision that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which cannot be remitted to him either in this world or the world of spirits. God has wrought out a salvation for all men, unless they have committed a certain sin; and every man who has a friend in the eternal world can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. And so you can see how far you can be a savior

We truely can be a saviour.

[Simon]

NO, you can only have one mortality and one resurrection!
Will your your first born (spiritual) have to one day become a saviour? - no idea (perhaps vicariously).

{Christ alone who makes us perfect?} One would have already obtained perfection prior to creating other worlds and populating them with spiritalls.

If there is only one resurrection it is clear that we can't become a saviour as Christ. In that case we were made perfect through Christ, would one day become a God, organize worlds and spirits.

Would the atonement of Christ also apply the worlds we create? Or would someone amongst out spiritchildren would have to fulfill the role of Christ? Why was Christ the one who atoned for the world he created? What about all the other worlds that are inhabited, does the atonement also apply to them?

Can we be God without having to go through a lesson that our "future son" may go through? Or will we be qualified because Christ has perfected us?

[Simon]

One of the rungs on Jacob's ladder.

;)

[Hippophibia]

My understanding is Christ atoned for all the worlds God (Our Heavenly Father) has created or may yet create!!!.

The feeling/understanding is one would perpetuated the same plan!! I would think it is more terrible to send your first born to go through such an experience than to do it oneself - the symbolism of Abraham offering up Isaac.

Remember Christ (our elder Brother) achieved perfection (as far as one could go) in the preexistence, unlike us - yes He create our world and I am sure we also played some part in it.

[brrgilbert]

God Bless

[Hippophibia]

Yeah, Abraham being commanded to do similar to his father and the wicked Egyptian priests - it is mind boggling how he could of gone through with it.

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.
Is that not referring to animal sacrifices as part of the law prior to Jesus resurrection? i.e. they had kept the law and ordinances and endured to the end.

[Hippophibia]

Yes, Saviors upon Mount Zion- John 14:12 botherd me for many years till I figured out it is referring to family history and the work for the dead.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[Simon]

In irony, Abraham knew from first-hand experience what it meant to be nearly sacrificed upon an altar . . . Pearl of Great Price.

Too, consider the following:

(Doctrine and Covenants 138:11-14.)


11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Great scriptures, thanks so much for sharing.

To bring "sacrifices in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the son of God" is so vital for us to understand and know God. Only by gaining knowledge through sacrifices can we truely get to know him. Only by knowing God can we gain eternal life.

Abraham knew both sides, he truely comprehended what Isaac went through, and still had to fulfill his role in that test.

[ajax]

I have an inkling that "creator" and "saviour/redeemer" go hand in hand. What you create you work to save and redeem.

What does that mean if we believe we are future creators?

Just an inkling though.

[durangout]

Do we need to have the experience of being a Saviour ourselves on the worlds we will create as a God, or will we not need to go through that because it is Christ alone who makes us perfect? Are there many Saviours or one only?

Lets discuss

It is not Christ who makes us perfect. I would suggest that you understand more fundamental doctrine before you go here...

[natasha]

I am currently reading an awesome book by Tad Callister (of the Seventy) entitled: "The Infinite Atonement". It's a great read although being only 1/3 through at this time, I know I will have to read it again!

[Simon]

I have an inkling that "creator" and "saviour/redeemer" go hand in hand. What you create you work to save and redeem.

What does that mean if we believe we are future creators?

Just an inkling though.

Thank you ajax, wonderful thought. I have been thing about the same thing and feel there is something to it.

[Simon]

Do we need to have the experience of being a Saviour ourselves on the worlds we will create as a God, or will we not need to go through that because it is Christ alone who makes us perfect? Are there many Saviours or one only?

Lets discuss

It is not Christ who makes us perfect. I would suggest that you understand more fundamental doctrine before you go here...

The thing I love about discussion is, in fact, that they are discussions. Discussions are opne to different ideas, views and even errors.
Having that said, I will not respond to your kind suggestion with too many of my own words, for I find the scriptures are quiet plain about it.. If you will, enjoy and have fun reading.

3 Nep 12:48

"Therefore I would that ye should be perfect EVEN AS I, ot your Father who is in heaven is PERFECT"

Jesus Christ is perfect. By following his example we will become perfect. His atonement allows us that we can even follow him at all

D&C 76:69

These are they who are just men MADE PERFECT through JESUS the mediator...who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood

What gives Christ the power and authority to bring us unto salvation and perfection?

“Without the knowledge of all things God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; … and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him.” (Lectures on Faith, p 44.) Joseph Smith

It is through his knowledge, and our faith we gain salvation.. Where does this knowledge come from? ( Prophecying about Christs atonement, Isiah says.. )


Mosiah 14:11

"By HIS KNOWLEDGE shall my rightous servant ( Jesus Christ ) justify many;for he shall bear their iniquities"

Christ sacrificed and gained knowledge through bearing our iniquities. The knowledge he posesses will bring us unto pefection, if we give heed to it.

2 Nephi 2:28

And now, my sons, I wuld that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandmants, and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit

Christ is the author of life. Without him, nothing in this creation could even live.. So, I would say wihtout him there can't be perfection. He will make us perfect, if we let him.


As for me, I want to follow his invitation.

Moroni 10:32

Yea come unto CHRIST, and be perfected IN HIM.

Other nice scriptures

Hebr.5:9

And being made PERFECT; HE became the author of salvation unto all that obey him

Hebr.10:10/14

By the which will we are sanctified THROUGH of the body of JESUS CHRIST once for all..
For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED for ever THEM THAT ARE SACTIFIED.

[Simon]

I am currently reading an awesome book by Tad Callister (of the Seventy) entitled: "The Infinite Atonement". It's a great read although being only 1/3 through at this time, I know I will have to read it again!

Thank you recommanding natasha, tell me how it was when you have finshed it ;)

[azalea.rubicon]

My understanding is Christ atoned for all the worlds God (Our Heavenly Father) has created or may yet create!!!.

If this statement is true, this gives us a perspective of what Christ had to suffer. No wonder he bled at every pore. As a mother, when I know one of my children is suffering/hurt/in pain/in trouble, I suffer too. Imagine suffering for all of God's children living in the worlds God created.

[Simon]

My understanding is Christ atoned for all the worlds God (Our Heavenly Father) has created or may yet create!!!.

If this statement is true, this gives us a perspective of what Christ had to suffer. No wonder he bled at every pore. As a mother, when I know one of my children is suffering/hurt/in pain/in trouble, I suffer too. Imagine suffering for all of God's children living in the worlds God created.

It happens fast that we tend to think that Christs suffering must have been greater if he would have atoned for all other worlds, but what we need to understand is that it is not the amount of sins that made him suffer, but it rather was the depth of it. Christ did not necessarely feel "more" pain than we do, but he felt a much "deeper" pain, if that makes sense. He felt the worst anguish anyone can actually experience, which is to stand with filthy garments in the glory of God.

Another thing we learn in the Pearl of great Price is that this world was chosen for Christ to come because it was the only world that would kill it's maker. This world is therefore the most evil one. He truely humbled himselfe even if being a perfect God.

[Frederick]

NO, you can only have one mortality and one resurrection!
Will your your first born (spiritual) have to one day become a saviour? - no idea (perhaps vicariously).

{Christ alone who makes us perfect?} One would have already obtained perfection prior to creating other worlds and populating them with spirits.

Interesting. You feel that you may have a spiritual firstborn that could do this, but you have not. I've never heard that before. However, there is something to consider that is written in our D&C.

8. It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they, in like manner, offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him.

Do you feel that you will inherit the same glory as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob if you have not done what they have done?

Consider the parable of the laborers in Matthew.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. (Matthew, Chapter 20)

The labor they perform is the same. It doesn't matter that they were hired at the eleventh hour, because they performed the same labor as those hired at the first. What matters is they all performed the same labor, or all labored in the same field.

Likewise, it doesn't matter when you turn your heart to The Lord as much as it does that you do, and in so doing perform the same labor as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all of the Fathers who have received thrones of glory in the Father's kingdom.

Consider what is said in the first scripture I quoted. What do you need to do in order to make the same sacrifice as those who have sacrificed all and obtained eternal life?

[TZONE]

NO, you can only have one mortality and one resurrection!
Will your your first born (spiritual) have to one day become a saviour? - no idea (perhaps vicariously).

{Christ alone who makes us perfect?} One would have already obtained perfection prior to creating other worlds and populating them with spiritalls.

If there is only one resurrection it is clear that we can't become a saviour as Christ. In that case we were made perfect through Christ, would one day become a God, organize worlds and spirits.

Would the atonement of Christ also apply the worlds we create? Or would someone amongst out spiritchildren would have to fulfill the role of Christ? Why was Christ the one who atoned for the world he created? What about all the other worlds that are inhabited, does the atonement also apply to them?

Can we be God without having to go through a lesson that our "future son" may go through? Or will we be qualified because Christ has perfected us?

What log said. But I will talk about ressurectoin. I don't remember if its hebrew or greek, but there are three translations for ressurection. That is because there ARE three types or degrees of ressurection.

[Hippophibia]

Frederick; we were having a friendly discussion on gospel doctrine on the plan of salvation - my most favourite topic. I am surprised you have not heard of it - it was openly taught in youth Sunday school when I was converted to the church in 1981. It is nothing other than a perpetuation of the Plan of Salvation - that goes back/forward/present to intelligence and God and God’s of Gods in all directions for all eternity having no end.

Unlike you guys I desire no other kingdom than the telestrial - a one shack room with a leaking roof is all I need with no other responsibilities; wonderful. It is bad enough in this life to live with a constant reminder of one sins and short-comings; I don’t need that throughout all eternity. The HG is good enough for me - since It administer to the telestrial great.

TZONE - yes there are three resurrections (bodies) and whatever type body we inherit in the resurrection that is the final state - never to be acted upon again. Whatever God does is forever - so decide where you want to be and take it.